Preachers Brutally Beaten At Gay Pride Festival

[Mitspa]

I'm not picking on you here, Mit, but you ask the questions a lot of people want answered, so I picked up on your post to do so. Thanks in advance.

"Repent or go to hell!" isn't convincing them they are sinners, it is antagonizing them beyond belief.

You can't call anyone to account for their sins by accusing them. You can only call someone to account for their sins by getting to know them, relating to them, even sympathizing with them. Or have we forgotten that we were once in their shoes, particularly those of us who came to Christ late in life?

How can you confront the most arrogant of sinners -- those participating in a "gay pride" march -- with a sin making a direct accusation against them that you know they reject? It isn't "presenting the Gospel." In fact, its about as unloving and uncaring as you can get. Was Jesus unloving and uncaring in presenting the Gospel? And please don't requote "brood of vipers" to us, Mit. That wasn't a Gospel presentation. Jesus knew that brood of vipers was never going to repent! It was a condemnation.

Is that how someone brought you to Christ, "Repent or go to hell"? I remember hearing words like that, not even directed at me, and having those words raise my ire and my blood pressure. It is an approach that does not work!

They can't. But that sign and those words didn't "tell them" anything. They heard the words, they saw the sign, and all they got was angry.

Really? how many of them converted that day?

Not with an obnoxious sign and shouted five-word "gospel messages," it doesn't.

I think people here need to examine how Jesus actually did present the Gospel. Yes, He told people things like this:

Luke 13, NASB
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3 "I tell you, no, but unless * you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no, but unless * you repent, you will all likewise perish."​

How long had He known the disciples before He got that specific with them? A year? Two? Maybe three? I'm not saying He didn't warn people He didn't know to repent or perish. Obviously there are several examples of Him doing so.

Did He carry signs? Did He shout "five-word-'gospels' " at them? Show me those passages.

We aren't Jesus. Do we even pay attention to how He started His ministry?

Matthew 4
23 Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.
24 The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill *, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them.
25 Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan.​

Where's the shouting? Where's the signage? Wow, look at that: There wasn't any.

Jesus established His credentials alongside His message. We have to do the same. Wading into a crowd of "gay pride" marchers with a sign and a five-word "gospel" isn't establishing anything, in their minds, other than more of what they come to expect from Christians -- rejection, condemnation, anger. Stirring up those feelings in someone you intend to preach the Gospel to isn't going to get them to listen to a single word you say, or read a single word of Scripture you put before them.

This is a lousy approach, and while they didn't deserve to be treated that way, they got exactly what anyone with any sense could have predicted would happen to them.

I respect your opinion but I have ministered in the prison system for years and sometimes the FACT that God has made a hell for those who reject His Son and prefer sin is very powerful to the conscience of those God would have us reach...Now this is basic biblical knowledge and I have seen it work many times before and have seen many turn their lives to God because they feared hell fire and damnation.... so Im speaking as one God has sent to sinners and as a minister that has actually pulled sinners out of the fire...

And the point that Jesus didn't carry a sign is just a silly point to me? These guys had every right under God and the legal code of our nation to hold those signs...period!

 

[Mitspa]

I agree with refusing to be silent about the abomination against God that gay marriage represents. But speaking out about gay marriage isn't evangelism. These "preachers" were engaging in the former, not the latter.

Evangelism requires an entirely different approach, as I've advocated on this thread for about ten pages now.

The kissing puppys approach has not been working....We see Jesus very much in His Mercy...Yes! But the bible( His Word) also portrays Him as the Judge of the world and makes clear that fear of judgment should be used for those who will not hear His Mercy.

 

[Mitspa]

What if I went to a country music concert holding signs that say country music sucks. That is pretty much what these preachers did. It's like live action trolling. As for the comparison the temple ,this is completely erroneous because they were just having a rally on their own turf and were not defiling any temple

Well buy a ticket and go...as long as you don't disrupt the concert others paid to see...Im sure you wont get kicked out or beat up?

But that has nothing to do with this issue!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I respect your opinion but I have ministered in the prison system for years and sometimes the FACT that God has made a hell for those who reject His Son and prefer sin is very powerful to the conscience of those God would have us reach...Now this is basic biblical knowledge and I have seen it work many times before and have seen many turn their lives to God because they feared hell fire and damnation.... so Im speaking as one God has sent to sinners and as a minister that has actually pulled sinners out of the fire...

I minister to ex-felons, addicts, etc. as well. Not once has anyone been dragged unwillingly into my office -- though I suspect if a court or a parole officer had not ordered some of them there, they wouldn't be there. Still, they come more or less volitionally.

I know for a fact that if a prisoner doesn't want to go to a church service, he doesn't have to go, and therein lies the fault of your comparison. The "gay pride" marchers didn't invite the preachers there, and it is highly unlikely they wanted to hear their message. I don't believe they deserved their beating, but they invited it upon themselves by going uninvited into hostile territory with a sign that called attention to their own hostility to the march. Again, Jews don't go to Skinhead rallies to proselytize, and ISIS doesn't attend Baptist churches on Sunday morning to offer the limited options of conversion or death.

And the point that Jesus didn't carry a sign is just a silly point to me? These guys had every right under God and the legal code of our nation to hold those signs...period!

Sure they did. I don't deny it. But it wasn't the Christlike thing to do. Jesus proved Himself worthy of attention before He preached the Gospel. Who are these guys to a "gay pride" marcher?

 

[crossnote]

I can tell a friend, or even just a sometime acquaintance, "Hey, you know, I think you might be drinking too much. What do you think?"

Can I say the same thing to a stranger in a restaurant?

It's the same principle with the Gospel. Yes, preach sin to them. But you better know them well enough for the preaching to go down well. Otherwise, you've just started a fight.

well ya, the preaching of the cross is a stumbling block and an offense and foolishness to them which perish.Sometimes it matters not how loving you are... they'll hate the message and I don't care if they hate me, or know me or whatever. There is no requirement in Scripture that says we must know them well enough. The power of the Gospel is in the Gospel not the preacher. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree agreeably on presenting the Gospel.

 

[Mitspa]

When he did, it was not confrontational, but loving, and he didn't attempt to preach from the Jewish writings, as they had no grounding in them. He taught from their own gnostic and pagan philosophies.

Better read the bible Warrior...

Ac 17:22 ¶ Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious;
23 "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:
24 "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

 

[crossnote]

Sorry brother you missed the point.

Sorry then. Can you make your point in two sentences or less? I probably have ADD

 

[Mitspa]

I minister to ex-felons, addicts, etc. as well. Not once has anyone been dragged unwillingly into my office -- though I suspect if a court or a parole officer had not ordered some of them there, they wouldn't be there. Still, they come more or less volitionally.

I know for a fact that if a prisoner doesn't want to go to a church service, he doesn't have to go, and therein lies the fault of your comparison. The "gay pride" marchers didn't invite the preachers there, and it is highly unlikely they wanted to hear their message. I don't believe they deserved their beating, but they invited it upon themselves by going uninvited into hostile territory with a sign that called attention to their own hostility to the march. Again, Jews don't go to Skinhead rallies to proselytize, and ISIS doesn't attend Baptist churches on Sunday morning to offer the limited options of conversion or death.

Sure they did. I don't deny it. But it wasn't the Christlike thing to do. Jesus proved Himself worthy of attention before He preached the Gospel. Who are these guys to a "gay pride" marcher?

Im glad your a counselor or whatever warrior ...but God calls some to preach repentance and to warn the sinners of the rewards of sin. You do your job and let others do what God has called them to do! As far as these men, I see no reason to question their intentions as ministers and FOR SURE as citizens deserve their protected free speech as much as these people who are corrupting our society.

 

[Mitspa]

What would Jesus Christ say to gay people.?... I imagine he would say something along the lines of....
I love you and I offer you a way out of this sinful lifestyle. I won't force you to come to me but I will welcome you with open arms. Also I understand what it feels like to be shunned and ridiculed by society.

How about we let the Lords own Words speak...

Mt 5:29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

And when He seen a sinner that He forgave...He said "go in sin no more"

 

[Mitspa]

Hey bro!I am not in favor of them getting beat up either. I am just looking for you to understand something. You know brother crossnotes how the word says this Heb 4:12!! right?? If you use the sword( the Word) to cut someone,you must understand you also can become cut be it yourself,for the two edged sword cuts in both directions! For indeed what soever a man sows that shall he also reap,( gal 6:1-5) and verse 7-10!

This law applies to both the just and unjust( matt 5:45) The consequence for self can be harsh( col 3:25) John the baptist had no such problem,perhaps now you know why.Some people know just enough of the Gospel to hurt themselves and others by it,they have not yet learned how to tame there own tongue(Proverbs 18:21) You get, what you put out.

I have been out many times on the streets of Detroit brother,I lived on them for 3 years. I have preached on those streets and have seen many come to the Lord,I was mocked,spit upon but never struck! When you go out into the jungle you must be prepared for the jungle,I know the Word brother!Hence there is no fear,and no doubt. I do not boast in myself in this!!For wisdom is obtained by Christ Jesus!!( 1 cor 1:30-31!!!)

It is wise you use his wisdom rather then our own! LOL I thank the Lord for his!! I hope you understand better now, and are not mad at me for speaking this.And you helped me make my point as well, so thanks for that bro!! John the Baptist spoke the very same, as Jesus did to the Scribes and Pharisees who thought people should be under there rules! My point made perfect by you words bro!! thanks for that!!

The only sword these guys used was the Word of God...which we are commanded to do

I don't think some of you have any idea of what God calls certain ministers to do? If some of you heard the good news of the saving grace of Christ, it was good news BECAUSE YOU KNEW YOU WAS A SINNER! who needed a Savior!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Better read the bible Warrior...

I do, daily, and I'm disappointed in that you would make a statement to me that peripherally accuses me of not doing so.

Ac 17:22 ¶ Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious;
23 "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:
24 "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Where does Paul start in this sermon? The Bible? No. You do a disservice to Paul by starting at the midpoint of Luke's account in chapter seventeen. Paul was without any Christian fellowship in Athens, the ones who had escorted him there leaving to summon Silas and Timothy to him, and while he waited:

Acts 17, NASB
16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols.
17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.
18 And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. Some were saying, "What would this idle babbler wish to say?" Others *, "He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,"-because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.
19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, "May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?
20 "For you are bringing some strange things to our ears; so we want to know what these things mean *."
21 (Now all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.)​

He starts out by noting their religious diversity (v. 22), mentioning the numerous pagan idols scattered throughout Athens, including one "to an unknown God" (v.23). He uses this idol as his jumping-off point, having established the reasoned fact that they worshiped a God they did not know. He proceeded to describe Him (vv.24-27). Notice he relies on nothing specific from Scripture, because as I said, they have no grounding in the Jewish writings.

He urges them in those verses to think larger than they've thought before, outside of the human graven image made with hands, to think of the God who made the world, to think of Him not as a God who needs service but as One who has served all men, blessed them with life, with their identity/nationality, their homes, and in so doing, would make them do just as the Stoics and Epicureans were doing -- seeking after Truth, after the identity of this "unknown God" without knowing it is not a long journey to Him, as He is among us (v. 27).

He reasons that their very own poets have spoken of Him, without knowing Him (v. 28) saying, "For we also are His children." Then Paul immediately establishes the commonality of the Greeks and the Jews, saying, "Being then His children, we... " i.e., the likes of all of them there at the Areopagus (v. 29), stating that no one should therefore think of Him as mere gold and silver molded by artisans -- in one swoop reducing their image of man in their eyes while acknowledging their human superiority in art and thought.

His words have soothed what is coming next, having established in their minds that they do indeed worship and unknown God, that men among them have speculated that this God is greater than all others, and certainly greater than man. Having gotten them to accept that concept of God -- at least stating it and not being interrupted -- Paul says that God is overlooking their own failure to acknowledge Him (v. 30) and it is God -- not Paul! -- who is calling them to repentance, a concept the Greeks well understood, but only as it related on the human level, not applying to any relationship them might have with God.

It is only when Paul mentions the resurrection that many of them rejected his words. But many did not, and desired to know more, and still more believed based simply on what he had just said.

This was not a confrontational statement, a loudly shouted demand, "Repent! Or burn!!" The Gnostic and Stoics respected learned men. They recognized Paul as a learned man. They welcomed him to their "men's club" to speak intellectually on what he had to say, and he accommodated them.

Paul didn't "barge in" anywhere. Ever. He preached just as Jesus did, with love, reason, and intelligence. Neither ever preached out of anger, provoked animosity, or created strife. To be sure, their message may have caused all those things in their listeners, but they themselves never acted with any of those emotions as a motivator.

The same can't be said for these two "street preachers" who got themselves beat up going where they were not invited, pushing a message not rooted in love but in something else, and (I suspect) doing so with a friend nearby with a cell phone to record their "persecution." This isn't what evangelism is, and it isn't what the Gospel is about.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes and he commanded them all to repent and that God was going to judge them...And the things he said and taught was so radical he was accused of turning the world upside down...a little sign is nothing warrior ....sorry if I offended you...brother

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Yes and he commanded them all to repent and that God was going to judge them...And the things he said and taught was so radical he was accused of turning the world upside down...a little sign is nothing warrior ....sorry if I offended you...brother

The only thing that was "radical" to them was the resurrection. It wasn't until that point that they became distraught. And again, he didn't call them to repentance, he made it clear God did, and the judgment, he said, was "in righteousness," not anger, not animosity.

And the offense was minor, and I've done the same thing when my feelings get tweaked, so no worries.

 

[crossnote]

I'm really saddened that what was clearly and ultimately were the fault of the gay attackers (two were arrested at the scene) we somehow turned this around and put the preachers on trial and end up sniping at each other. Lord have mercy.

 

[Mitspa]

The only thing that was "radical" to them was the resurrection. It wasn't until that point that they became distraught. And again, he didn't call them to repentance, he made it clear God did, and the judgment, he said, was "in righteousness," not anger, not animosity.

And the offense was minor, and I've done the same thing when my feelings get tweaked, so no worries.

No warrior he told them their temples was not the dwelling place of god..That there was only One true God and that God demanded they repent and was going to judge them...And weather Pauls attitude toward these folks was different than these guys with the signs is not clear. The point is that these guys very well could have been in the very will of God Almighty...its not evident to me as a minister they was doing anything wrong...but beyond that as citizens, I would that we all would be more vocal and outspoken about the direction of our society and it may come down to us all taking up signs and showing our disapproval in whatever way we can...

God Bless

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

No warrior he told them their temples was not the dwelling place of god..That there was only One true God and that God demanded they repent and was going to judge them...And weather Pauls attitude toward these folks was different than these guys with the signs is not clear.

That's not the way the passage reads, brother. He didn't accuse them, chastise them, belittle them. He reasoned with them. Let me show you what "gotquestions.org" says about it:

Question: "What happened at Mars Hill in the Bible?"

The biblical significance of Mars Hill is that it is the location of one of Paul’s most important gospel presentations at the time of his visit to Athens during his second missionary journey (Acts 17:16–34). It was where he addressed the religious idolatry of the Greeks who even had an altar to the “Unknown God.” It was this altar and their religious idolatry that Paul used as a starting point in proclaiming to them the one true God and how they could be reconciled to Him. Paul’s sermon is a classic example of a gospel presentation that begins where the listeners are and then presents the gospel message in a logical and biblical fashion. In many ways it is a classic example of apologetics in action. Paul started his message by addressing the false beliefs of those gathered there that day and then used those beliefs as a way of presenting the gospel message to them.

But I'm not going to beat this argument to death anymore. It's becoming more "yes he did" "no he didn't" than should be the case.

And I do think his attitude was very different and far superior to that these two "street preachers" showed. To me, they had only one purpose: To get on the news and be seen as "martyrs" or "persecuted" when it was their own attitude that got them in trouble. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[kedge]

Preacher protest should preach to his own flock and not cause trouble elsewhere, but the preachers might learn from their mistake and learn from the Christ?

 

[crossnote]

Preacher protest should preach to his own flock and not cause trouble elsewhere, but the preachers might learn from their mistake and learn from the Christ?

That would be called a pastor, not an evangelist-preacher.
I'm amazed lately how many 'non christian' and 'not sures' are jumping on CC being quite dogmatic in what is what.

 

[VioletReigns]

Was Jesus Christ glorified by the men protesting the festival? Did anybody at the festival accept the Lord Jesus as their Savior because of their protest?

 

[Stephen63]

I saw the video. The two preachers were provoked, threatened, & beaten..... And some "christians" in here say they deserve it.

Did Paul, Silas, Barnabas, & Peter "deserve it"?

Did Paul run when the mobs grew?

I have a question. Why judge people for being there when most "christians" are too chicken to do anything?

What if The Holy Spirit led them? That would mean it was God's will, right?

What if they went on their own? They didn't verbally provoke when threatened, they didn't verbally fight back.

What IF they just wanted to show how the people would react with violence? I wouldn't condone that, but if that's the reason, they definitely proved their point, didn't they?

No matter how you slice it, the sodomites showed their violent attitude to lawful protesters. No matter how "tolerant" the naysayers are they will eventually be walked on like a welcome mat. That is the only sure fact.