What does a Christian look like?
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This parable from Jesus about the Sheep and the Goats answers the question..
The Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:24-45 NIV)
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
The Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:24-45 NIV)
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
thanks for that. maybe the reason i'm struggling with this question is because i feel like it's akin to "how to vet a christian" and it's a function that i am kind of loath to even touch, at least as a primary objective. and yet (in my mind) the process exists almost as a by-product of connection with another.
maybe i'm more wired to be afraid of keeping my impressions quite soft and gently formed, simply because i know that i am not always what one necessarily expects of the "typical church girl" type. i'm neither terribly motivated by much of the obvious cultural expectations, and often, so very aware of feeling like i'm far from where i should be. being aware of my own flaws and follies reminds me that so many vulnerabilities exist within my view and perception.
so on some level, i feel like labels, judgments and thinking that i've got someone all figured out is a betrayal of even myself. instead, these perceptions should slowly evolve over time, and certainly not without a sincere effort to know someone, and putting in the time to make that effort to connect with them in an authentic way. while Jesus did speak boldly to others and with discernment as to their character, Jesus lacked the fallible aspects of my perceptive powers.
if i am not prepared to put in the time, effort or open heart/mind to really get to know someone, then i don't believe that i am entitled to anything more than open-minded casual assessment, and certainly not to the extent that my actions are going to shift and i'm going to draw conclusions about them, because my casual observations aren't a luxury that i deserve indulging --perhaps instead, they are simply filed away as part of the process of getting to know someone whom i may have a greater knowledge of down the road.
i feel like pride is the enemy of being open minded about people when all we have is causal observation, pressing to convince ourselves that we have anyone "all figured out".
further, perhaps this is my vulnerability -- my empathy in relation to others' actions and fear that i am going to pigeonhole someone, or view things as having more weight than they should, from both a negative AND positive impression. or that my pride in myself will allow me to fall into a sense of assurance about what i observe because i have a lot of confidence in my ability to read others.
also, i see the danger that exists on both sides, and the weight of erroneous judgment can exist in the form of misplaced validation.
in younger days, i learned too well what it looks like to play the role of the "good christian girl", when it was nothing but maintaining perception and appearance, i was very good at that--so concerned about saying or doing something that betrayed this ideal. as i fell (even) further away from God, often the greater guilt was about how i had less concern for others' impressions of me. but here's what i often found to be the most depressing part: how easy i found it to snow someone about what my faith was really like. how easy it was for other people to buy into the fact that i was such a "great christian" and had things all together.
i was empty, sad, and lacking so much. yet i would be asked to lead studies, and was often given a lot of positive feedback, using terms like "role model" and "positive influence". i think many just wanted to believe that more than they wanted to get to know me, and see what was below the surface.
imagine how dangerous that validation is to someone who is miserable in their "faith"?
so, the process that brought me to where i am today makes me hate assumption of anyone's heart, and recognition that when something looks really, really good, it seldom is. it's often all for show. that kind of perfectionism betrays so much to me. and that is why i don't believe that i'm necessarily capable of more that cautious observation.
as to discerning how to approach? it's so funny. i'm not shy about talking to people, making friends, or in general, the discussion of faith matters with others. but describing how to discern authentic fruit just doesn't really form intention in my thought process. thus, it's really hard for me to even describe that activity. people's own actions and words betray or reveal their heart if you're paying attention and have a sincere desire to connect with them and pay more attention to their words and actions whether they're a tatted-up, homeless, perfectly coiffed or diseased and bed-ridden.
perhaps it's the leading of the Holy Spirit, practice in searching for authenticity or something else -- i just don't know. but the desire to connect and seek that truth is an important start. without earnest investment and love, we will never have the real story.
.
maybe i'm more wired to be afraid of keeping my impressions quite soft and gently formed, simply because i know that i am not always what one necessarily expects of the "typical church girl" type. i'm neither terribly motivated by much of the obvious cultural expectations, and often, so very aware of feeling like i'm far from where i should be. being aware of my own flaws and follies reminds me that so many vulnerabilities exist within my view and perception.
so on some level, i feel like labels, judgments and thinking that i've got someone all figured out is a betrayal of even myself. instead, these perceptions should slowly evolve over time, and certainly not without a sincere effort to know someone, and putting in the time to make that effort to connect with them in an authentic way. while Jesus did speak boldly to others and with discernment as to their character, Jesus lacked the fallible aspects of my perceptive powers.
if i am not prepared to put in the time, effort or open heart/mind to really get to know someone, then i don't believe that i am entitled to anything more than open-minded casual assessment, and certainly not to the extent that my actions are going to shift and i'm going to draw conclusions about them, because my casual observations aren't a luxury that i deserve indulging --perhaps instead, they are simply filed away as part of the process of getting to know someone whom i may have a greater knowledge of down the road.
i feel like pride is the enemy of being open minded about people when all we have is causal observation, pressing to convince ourselves that we have anyone "all figured out".
further, perhaps this is my vulnerability -- my empathy in relation to others' actions and fear that i am going to pigeonhole someone, or view things as having more weight than they should, from both a negative AND positive impression. or that my pride in myself will allow me to fall into a sense of assurance about what i observe because i have a lot of confidence in my ability to read others.
also, i see the danger that exists on both sides, and the weight of erroneous judgment can exist in the form of misplaced validation.
in younger days, i learned too well what it looks like to play the role of the "good christian girl", when it was nothing but maintaining perception and appearance, i was very good at that--so concerned about saying or doing something that betrayed this ideal. as i fell (even) further away from God, often the greater guilt was about how i had less concern for others' impressions of me. but here's what i often found to be the most depressing part: how easy i found it to snow someone about what my faith was really like. how easy it was for other people to buy into the fact that i was such a "great christian" and had things all together.
i was empty, sad, and lacking so much. yet i would be asked to lead studies, and was often given a lot of positive feedback, using terms like "role model" and "positive influence". i think many just wanted to believe that more than they wanted to get to know me, and see what was below the surface.
imagine how dangerous that validation is to someone who is miserable in their "faith"?
so, the process that brought me to where i am today makes me hate assumption of anyone's heart, and recognition that when something looks really, really good, it seldom is. it's often all for show. that kind of perfectionism betrays so much to me. and that is why i don't believe that i'm necessarily capable of more that cautious observation.
as to discerning how to approach? it's so funny. i'm not shy about talking to people, making friends, or in general, the discussion of faith matters with others. but describing how to discern authentic fruit just doesn't really form intention in my thought process. thus, it's really hard for me to even describe that activity. people's own actions and words betray or reveal their heart if you're paying attention and have a sincere desire to connect with them and pay more attention to their words and actions whether they're a tatted-up, homeless, perfectly coiffed or diseased and bed-ridden.
perhaps it's the leading of the Holy Spirit, practice in searching for authenticity or something else -- i just don't know. but the desire to connect and seek that truth is an important start. without earnest investment and love, we will never have the real story.
.
R
You have shown what a Christian does and shows from the love of God, But its not a look of a Christian. Does a Christian have a look? or does a Christian only shows the effect of God's love and care? Yes in the pictures you show people caring, doing what Jesus would do. But is that a look of a Christian? its not a specific look. Like you would walk down a street and you see a man, in a police uniform, you not going to think he or she is fireman are you, no! the look of that man in a police uniform will common sense tell you that he or she is a police man/woman. I think that what the OP is referening to, about a Chirstian having a specific look.
The thing that makes me really sad is that I know a lot of Christians who are so judgmental, self-seeking, and believing they're so high above others that they never lift a finger to help anyone except to tell them everything they're doing wrong.
And then there are people like some friends of our family who offered to drop everything and drive 2 hours and spend the day with my Mom during a family crisis. My parents had invited them to church several times but I know one reason it's a sore subject is because they are a military family torn apart by past service (I think there is a feeling of, Where was God when... certain members of their family were lost to the atrocities of war.)
There's a co-worker I have who knew I was stressed about taking on a new position at work, so I arrived on my first day... to find that this person had cleaned out and organized the entire back room for me so that I'd have a clean start, all on their own time. I was completely taken aback. Anyone else would have said, "It's your problem now, deal with it." But this person has things going on in their life that I know the church would turn their back on.
It makes me terribly sad to know these people are not saved... and I pray for them often. They truly make a difference in people's lives and I know they've touched my heart very deeply.
In contrast, I have also worked with people who are very vocal about their faith and declare that THEY ARE CHRISTIANS... but as I said, they also never take the time to help anyone, and only do what's necessary to make themselves look good in the eyes of corporate representatives.
If nothing else, the contrast reminds me a lot of the type of person I want to strive to be.
And then there are people like some friends of our family who offered to drop everything and drive 2 hours and spend the day with my Mom during a family crisis. My parents had invited them to church several times but I know one reason it's a sore subject is because they are a military family torn apart by past service (I think there is a feeling of, Where was God when... certain members of their family were lost to the atrocities of war.)
There's a co-worker I have who knew I was stressed about taking on a new position at work, so I arrived on my first day... to find that this person had cleaned out and organized the entire back room for me so that I'd have a clean start, all on their own time. I was completely taken aback. Anyone else would have said, "It's your problem now, deal with it." But this person has things going on in their life that I know the church would turn their back on.
It makes me terribly sad to know these people are not saved... and I pray for them often. They truly make a difference in people's lives and I know they've touched my heart very deeply.
In contrast, I have also worked with people who are very vocal about their faith and declare that THEY ARE CHRISTIANS... but as I said, they also never take the time to help anyone, and only do what's necessary to make themselves look good in the eyes of corporate representatives.
If nothing else, the contrast reminds me a lot of the type of person I want to strive to be.
It might also be the kind of church. I've noticed different churches have different kinds of people, different attitudes. Whether a group of people in a church attracts people of like mind or whether people grow up around a certain kind of attitude and they don't know anything different, I don't know... maybe a bit of both. But it seems to make a difference which church you go to.
An aunt and uncle of mine used to run a radiator shop down in Texas in a mid-size town. One day a woman came in with a car that had a radiator problem. While my uncle took the car around to look at the problem, this woman started... well, basically preaching to my aunt. This woman was a pentecostal, but I kind of wish she would stop telling people she's a pentecostal because it gives the rest of us a bad name.
So eventually my uncle came back and told the pentecostal woman what the problem was, and that fixing it would cost about $96. This woman immediately started cussing him, casting aspersions on his character and making a few remarks about him having questionable parentage. My aunt and uncle stood there listening for a few minutes, then my aunt said, "Um... ma'am, excuse me... I have family up in Tennessee who are pentecostals and they don't talk like that. And I've been to their church, and nobody in their church talks like that."
We don't know where the woman eventually got her radiator fixed, but I think I've seen some people from her church in a certain forum around here...
An aunt and uncle of mine used to run a radiator shop down in Texas in a mid-size town. One day a woman came in with a car that had a radiator problem. While my uncle took the car around to look at the problem, this woman started... well, basically preaching to my aunt. This woman was a pentecostal, but I kind of wish she would stop telling people she's a pentecostal because it gives the rest of us a bad name.
So eventually my uncle came back and told the pentecostal woman what the problem was, and that fixing it would cost about $96. This woman immediately started cussing him, casting aspersions on his character and making a few remarks about him having questionable parentage. My aunt and uncle stood there listening for a few minutes, then my aunt said, "Um... ma'am, excuse me... I have family up in Tennessee who are pentecostals and they don't talk like that. And I've been to their church, and nobody in their church talks like that."
We don't know where the woman eventually got her radiator fixed, but I think I've seen some people from her church in a certain forum around here...
grace, i'm really glad you brought this thread forward. : ) but, this is a topic still mulling around in my head. yes, i understand the points made about how "christians don't always look like what we expect them to be". of course, i SOOO get that. but the necessity and value of this preconception is sort of bothering me.
so let me ask you guys, do you see any conflict with this statement:
The way we approach someone (always in love, of course) is often determined by their spiritual condition.
and
Jesus was a great example in reaching out to people where they were in life
as i'm chewing this topic over, i find those statements to be inconsistent with one another. to paraphrase:
how do i correctly form my preconceived notion of their spiritual condition before i address them "where they are at" spiritually?
because the more i think about this topic, the more i realize that i don't need to pre-form, pre-assess, or determine anyone's spiritual condition prior to "meeting them where they are at", simply because my behavior isn't altered by this detail. yes, the conversation might flow differently, but that's to be expected.
i wish i could draw a decision tree here, but since you're not in my office, i will attempt to go without that visual aid. : D
i seldom assume much about someone--as far as whether someone is a christian or not. i don't believe that's really terribly reliable--or that the risk of my assumption is worth being wrong.
if someone says they're a christian, i'm going to believe them, but i know that people can make mistakes about that. as i relate to someone, if i suspect what they're saying is indicative of not being saved, i treat them as if they're someone who may perceive wrongly they're a christian. not by calling them a liar, but by asking questions, which is the process of getting to know someone.
okay, so for a minute think about HOW you would treat a mature christian from a new one. think about what you would do differently. the fact of the matter is, do the assumptions and differences really exist? i don't think so. mature christians fall into sinful behavior, mature christians stagnate. mature christians are fallible. mature christians are not going to be treated much differently than new ones. no matter how long you're a christian, you don't have it all figured out. if anything the longer i'm a christian, the more i realize just how much there is to work on, and how far i still need to go.
if someone is a christian, i don't assume their condition. i don't need to. i just need to listen, be honest, be myself. i need Christ to shine through me. not my script, not my perfect words, but simply trust that i'm the conduit of His purpose and word. the idea that i need to FIRST ascertain someone's spiritual condition may sound okay at first, but i don't think that's what we're called to do. to do that is to pretend we can see the heart, lacking the wisdom and insight necessary to do just that. in fact, the problems that can arise from those assumptions are a whole other thing.
do my actions change that much? not really. i'm still the same person and the same truth applies. there's nothing in me that is going to overcome their lacking, and my assessments aren't likely going to be the difference. what WILL be is their openness and perhaps my ability to connect with them as the individual they are. to show them Christ. because the truth is that amazing all by itself.
here's what i think is the difference: not assuming about them, but knowing my bible, knowing my faith, and knowing God's character. those things make the difference. it's hard to be "bold and unashamed" when you aren't comfortable with the message you share.
by the way, does anyone else know what i'm talking about? this is starting to frustrate me a little, simply because i'm wondering whether i'm doing a really poor job of explaining this, if i'm missing some elemental point, or that no one sees the world as i do. and if it's a difference of opinion, i'm really fine with that--i just want to make sure i'm not misconstruing things.
so let me ask you guys, do you see any conflict with this statement:
The way we approach someone (always in love, of course) is often determined by their spiritual condition.
and
Jesus was a great example in reaching out to people where they were in life
as i'm chewing this topic over, i find those statements to be inconsistent with one another. to paraphrase:
how do i correctly form my preconceived notion of their spiritual condition before i address them "where they are at" spiritually?
because the more i think about this topic, the more i realize that i don't need to pre-form, pre-assess, or determine anyone's spiritual condition prior to "meeting them where they are at", simply because my behavior isn't altered by this detail. yes, the conversation might flow differently, but that's to be expected.
i wish i could draw a decision tree here, but since you're not in my office, i will attempt to go without that visual aid. : D
i seldom assume much about someone--as far as whether someone is a christian or not. i don't believe that's really terribly reliable--or that the risk of my assumption is worth being wrong.
if someone says they're a christian, i'm going to believe them, but i know that people can make mistakes about that. as i relate to someone, if i suspect what they're saying is indicative of not being saved, i treat them as if they're someone who may perceive wrongly they're a christian. not by calling them a liar, but by asking questions, which is the process of getting to know someone.
okay, so for a minute think about HOW you would treat a mature christian from a new one. think about what you would do differently. the fact of the matter is, do the assumptions and differences really exist? i don't think so. mature christians fall into sinful behavior, mature christians stagnate. mature christians are fallible. mature christians are not going to be treated much differently than new ones. no matter how long you're a christian, you don't have it all figured out. if anything the longer i'm a christian, the more i realize just how much there is to work on, and how far i still need to go.
if someone is a christian, i don't assume their condition. i don't need to. i just need to listen, be honest, be myself. i need Christ to shine through me. not my script, not my perfect words, but simply trust that i'm the conduit of His purpose and word. the idea that i need to FIRST ascertain someone's spiritual condition may sound okay at first, but i don't think that's what we're called to do. to do that is to pretend we can see the heart, lacking the wisdom and insight necessary to do just that. in fact, the problems that can arise from those assumptions are a whole other thing.
do my actions change that much? not really. i'm still the same person and the same truth applies. there's nothing in me that is going to overcome their lacking, and my assessments aren't likely going to be the difference. what WILL be is their openness and perhaps my ability to connect with them as the individual they are. to show them Christ. because the truth is that amazing all by itself.
here's what i think is the difference: not assuming about them, but knowing my bible, knowing my faith, and knowing God's character. those things make the difference. it's hard to be "bold and unashamed" when you aren't comfortable with the message you share.
by the way, does anyone else know what i'm talking about? this is starting to frustrate me a little, simply because i'm wondering whether i'm doing a really poor job of explaining this, if i'm missing some elemental point, or that no one sees the world as i do. and if it's a difference of opinion, i'm really fine with that--i just want to make sure i'm not misconstruing things.
literally, truthfully, everything pertaining to life now and for eternity has been prepared long ago.
so, yes, the 'secret decoder rings' are ready. they won't be delivered to just anyone though - the conditions yahweh the creator sets in torah (scripture) have to be met.
and a warning is wise to consider, 'if' it is to be > - "a sword will pierce your soul" ..... much like luke 2......
yahweh knows best. yahweh knows all. seek him and trust him fully, by grace in yahshua(yahweh's salvation).... no matter what is to happen!
so, yes, the 'secret decoder rings' are ready. they won't be delivered to just anyone though - the conditions yahweh the creator sets in torah (scripture) have to be met.
and a warning is wise to consider, 'if' it is to be > - "a sword will pierce your soul" ..... much like luke 2......
yahweh knows best. yahweh knows all. seek him and trust him fully, by grace in yahshua(yahweh's salvation).... no matter what is to happen!
Hey Gypsy, thanks for responding here. I feel like we are completely missing each other somehow.
When I said that Christ met people where they were at spiritually, what I meant was that he held those who were more "learned" to a higher standard. He was much more stern with the pharisees than he was with those just coming into the faith. I'll stand by my statement that we should interact with unbelievers or Christians differently based on where they are coming from spiritually. We can't deal with everyone exactly the same, because their situations and beliefs are different.
I'm a bit concerned that you may be under the impression that I'd call someone a liar...? I am not sure how this came out in my post about preconceived ideas that we should avoid entertaining when interacting with others.
I feel like you might be under the impression that I consider Christians infallible, while in actuality I would be more prone to be harder on holding a Christian accountable for sin, myself included. I would also be more patient with newer Christians who are still learning how to adjust to new lives in Christ.
My original intent for this thread was to discuss ways that we can avoid stereotyping or pushing Christians into a cookie cutter mold. I'm sorry that this got a bit mangled in translation.
I think we are just on different pages... maybe discussing different topics entirely without realizing it. I'm confused as well. I love you and your brain though, sister!
When I said that Christ met people where they were at spiritually, what I meant was that he held those who were more "learned" to a higher standard. He was much more stern with the pharisees than he was with those just coming into the faith. I'll stand by my statement that we should interact with unbelievers or Christians differently based on where they are coming from spiritually. We can't deal with everyone exactly the same, because their situations and beliefs are different.
I'm a bit concerned that you may be under the impression that I'd call someone a liar...? I am not sure how this came out in my post about preconceived ideas that we should avoid entertaining when interacting with others.
I feel like you might be under the impression that I consider Christians infallible, while in actuality I would be more prone to be harder on holding a Christian accountable for sin, myself included. I would also be more patient with newer Christians who are still learning how to adjust to new lives in Christ.
My original intent for this thread was to discuss ways that we can avoid stereotyping or pushing Christians into a cookie cutter mold. I'm sorry that this got a bit mangled in translation.
I think we are just on different pages... maybe discussing different topics entirely without realizing it. I'm confused as well.
I love you and your brain though, sister!
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See, I don't think Grace is suggesting that anyone be pre-assessed before being engaged with. I think what she meant by "approach someone" was not meeting and engaging with someone for the first time, but rather approaching them in a friendship, or developing a relationship with them after you have already met them. I think if you look at what she's saying with that little bit of difference, you will see this thread a little differently. Avoiding stereotyping people would necessitate getting to know someone first before making a judgment about them.
There are legitimate ways that a mature Christian can be treated differently than a baby Christian. For example, the Bible actually says that an elder cannot be a new Christian. Of course we know that the Bible is not saying that mature Christians are not susceptible to sin or that they somehow know everything there is to know about life and faith, but they are more seasoned and wise to lead. Likewise, you would most likely go to a mature Christian for advice rather than a baby Christian or someone who says they are Christian but lacks the fruit of a believer in their life.
I think your heart in the things you are saying is right, just that your understanding of the point of the thread missed the mark slightly There is value to garnering where a person is at spiritually, not as a prerequisite to engaging with them, but as a matter of observation as you engage with them, which is basically what you were saying as well. I do think there are ways you would engage with various individuals differently depending on where they are at spiritually. I look at the students in the Bible study that I lead and I see people at different places in their spiritual walk, and I know that they are not going to all benefit the same way from all being told the same things. If I were to disciple them individually, I would approach it differently with different individuals because some simply aren't as spiritually mature as others, which is okay, but it's also good to know as I'm assessing how I can best help them grow spiritually.
There are legitimate ways that a mature Christian can be treated differently than a baby Christian. For example, the Bible actually says that an elder cannot be a new Christian. Of course we know that the Bible is not saying that mature Christians are not susceptible to sin or that they somehow know everything there is to know about life and faith, but they are more seasoned and wise to lead. Likewise, you would most likely go to a mature Christian for advice rather than a baby Christian or someone who says they are Christian but lacks the fruit of a believer in their life.
I think your heart in the things you are saying is right, just that your understanding of the point of the thread missed the mark slightly
There is value to garnering where a person is at spiritually, not as a prerequisite to engaging with them, but as a matter of observation as you engage with them, which is basically what you were saying as well. I do think there are ways you would engage with various individuals differently depending on where they are at spiritually. I look at the students in the Bible study that I lead and I see people at different places in their spiritual walk, and I know that they are not going to all benefit the same way from all being told the same things. If I were to disciple them individually, I would approach it differently with different individuals because some simply aren't as spiritually mature as others, which is okay, but it's also good to know as I'm assessing how I can best help them grow spiritually.
Hey Gypsy, thanks for responding here. I feel like we are completely missing each other somehow.
quite possibly. : )
When I said that Christ met people where they were at spiritually, what I meant was that he held those who were more "learned" to a higher standard. He was much more stern with the pharisees than he was with those just coming into the faith. I'll stand by my statement that we should interact with unbelievers or Christians differently based on where they are coming from spiritually. We can't deal with everyone exactly the same, because their situations and beliefs are different.
absolutely true that Christ dealt with people differently, such as your example of the pharisees. i don't dispute that. but i would ask you to consider what are the circumstances in which YOU are called to deal with others, such as the inference of addressing another's sin. are these going to be random people that you hardly ever interact with? i would guess typically not. more likely, they are people who are inside your circle. these are people whom you probably know, and have a good sense of what their spiritual life consists of. i think of those folks. and for those who are in perhaps a greater level of authority, maybe their circle is wider.
my intention to point out is that the necessity of this awareness becomes less relevant as we find ourselves personally invested in another's life, making individual connections, taking the time to love and connect with one another. this sort of awareness comes naturally in these situations, and importantly, the learning comes alongside love and investment, which i believe go hand in hand with any kind of desire to approach someone whom you might feel led to address in a manner relevant to their spiritual walk.
I'm a bit concerned that you may be under the impression that I'd call someone a liar...? I am not sure how this came out in my post about preconceived ideas that we should avoid entertaining when interacting with others.
um, of course not. i can't imagine the necessity of calling you or anyone else here that. i'm sorry if you drew that impression. i only challenged the premise of your referenced statement and that aspect of this thread. all the examples and scenarios, including the details are my own attempt to show these scenarios in a real circumstance, as opposed to only in premise--because what i most struggled with was how the application of this kind of scenario is where things seem to fall flat with me.
I feel like you might be under the impression that I consider Christians infallible, while in actuality I would be more prone to be harder on holding a Christian accountable for sin, myself included. I would also be more patient with newer Christians who are still learning how to adjust to new lives in Christ.
nope, not at all, because i understand what you're saying. what my point was is that in most scenarios, what we are reacting to is not their maturity as much as what the specifics of the issue actually is. now, as you said, we are to certainly called to show more grace and tolerance to newer christians, but in a person to person discussion, that instruction isn't going to have as much role. i'm not disregarding that teaching, only that in a personal discussion, aren't you really going to lovingly, honestly, with bible in hand, address the person whom you feel led to approach?
my point being that if you are going to address someone about behavior, it will be IN SPECIFIC, relevant to the issue. and unless you're in a position of church leadership where your scope may be far larger, the circle for whom you'd be addressing these kind of issues isn't much larger than the relationships you've cultivated with love and connection, right?
now, i've had some circumstances where things have bled a little outside of that, and certainly, you proceed cautiously, but your feedback would be consistent with the answers they're providing, i.e. their sin.
My original intent for this thread was to discuss ways that we can avoid stereotyping or pushing Christians into a cookie cutter mold. I'm sorry that this got a bit mangled in translation.
I think we are just on different pages... maybe discussing different topics entirely without realizing it. I'm confused as well. I love you and your brain though, sister!
quite possibly. : )
When I said that Christ met people where they were at spiritually, what I meant was that he held those who were more "learned" to a higher standard. He was much more stern with the pharisees than he was with those just coming into the faith. I'll stand by my statement that we should interact with unbelievers or Christians differently based on where they are coming from spiritually. We can't deal with everyone exactly the same, because their situations and beliefs are different.
absolutely true that Christ dealt with people differently, such as your example of the pharisees. i don't dispute that. but i would ask you to consider what are the circumstances in which YOU are called to deal with others, such as the inference of addressing another's sin. are these going to be random people that you hardly ever interact with? i would guess typically not. more likely, they are people who are inside your circle. these are people whom you probably know, and have a good sense of what their spiritual life consists of. i think of those folks. and for those who are in perhaps a greater level of authority, maybe their circle is wider.
my intention to point out is that the necessity of this awareness becomes less relevant as we find ourselves personally invested in another's life, making individual connections, taking the time to love and connect with one another. this sort of awareness comes naturally in these situations, and importantly, the learning comes alongside love and investment, which i believe go hand in hand with any kind of desire to approach someone whom you might feel led to address in a manner relevant to their spiritual walk.
I'm a bit concerned that you may be under the impression that I'd call someone a liar...? I am not sure how this came out in my post about preconceived ideas that we should avoid entertaining when interacting with others.
um, of course not. i can't imagine the necessity of calling you or anyone else here that. i'm sorry if you drew that impression. i only challenged the premise of your referenced statement and that aspect of this thread. all the examples and scenarios, including the details are my own attempt to show these scenarios in a real circumstance, as opposed to only in premise--because what i most struggled with was how the application of this kind of scenario is where things seem to fall flat with me.
I feel like you might be under the impression that I consider Christians infallible, while in actuality I would be more prone to be harder on holding a Christian accountable for sin, myself included. I would also be more patient with newer Christians who are still learning how to adjust to new lives in Christ.
nope, not at all, because i understand what you're saying. what my point was is that in most scenarios, what we are reacting to is not their maturity as much as what the specifics of the issue actually is. now, as you said, we are to certainly called to show more grace and tolerance to newer christians, but in a person to person discussion, that instruction isn't going to have as much role. i'm not disregarding that teaching, only that in a personal discussion, aren't you really going to lovingly, honestly, with bible in hand, address the person whom you feel led to approach?
my point being that if you are going to address someone about behavior, it will be IN SPECIFIC, relevant to the issue. and unless you're in a position of church leadership where your scope may be far larger, the circle for whom you'd be addressing these kind of issues isn't much larger than the relationships you've cultivated with love and connection, right?
now, i've had some circumstances where things have bled a little outside of that, and certainly, you proceed cautiously, but your feedback would be consistent with the answers they're providing, i.e. their sin.
My original intent for this thread was to discuss ways that we can avoid stereotyping or pushing Christians into a cookie cutter mold. I'm sorry that this got a bit mangled in translation.
I think we are just on different pages... maybe discussing different topics entirely without realizing it. I'm confused as well.
I love you and your brain though, sister!
no, i appreciate your response, and what you've said here, i largely agree with. all i'm trying to point out, is that our need to assess another's spiritual condition is a fairly limited in scope and the process itself is inherently problematic. thus, i'm only trying to show how very narrow our need to do such a thing exists.
additionally, i get really kind of nervous whenever we as christians start talking about judging others spiritual condition lacking specifics and intention, largely because i think no one needs real encouragement to draw conclusions about others. in fact, i think this is almost a natural consequence of humanity. i am simply trying to show that not only stereotypes, but our human, flawed state predisposes us to both flawed and preconceived assessment, so the scope and specificity IS relevant to me.
and perhaps this is exposing my own peeve, but one thing that frustrates me greatly is that people who i've been around who go on about their need to judge others' spiritual condition tend to do so at the expense of examining their own. as if this opportunity provides them a distraction (freedom) from their own scrutiny. or they do so, lacking any real love, but from a place of moral superiority.
i'm not indicting you or anyone else here, but rather want to provide a cautious scope and consideration about the manner and heart behind our desire to assess another's spiritual condition.
anyway, thank you for your indulgence and reply. perhaps we are discussing separate issues, because i know this would be far more simple to hash out in chat!!! : D also, like you said, perhaps this is simply a tangential matter. but i'll have to think more about it. i feel like perhaps i'm not expressing this well, either, and that is frustrating me to no end. oh well. : )
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