Why Are Women Expected to be the Gatekeepers of Virginity?

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seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
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#41
Are you american? Do you agree that in the US just aknowledging differences in statistics based on races, is racism? So how is it not racist if Gods laws told us to racially segregate and not marry those of other ethnicities? Could you keep a public or private job in the west advocating such? The answer is no, so the nick called God racist, and me also, who is the most antiracist person you will ever meet, if you met me now. I do not puff myself up. The mods can review the entire thread and judge for themselves. I have no pride. I also never claimed to be a perfect christian yet, made it clear to you many times that I am not finished, and do not qualify for Heaven yet. I hold standards I do not live up to yet. Work in progress. Hope the judgement of me felt good, I forgive you. I should perhaps stop replying to posts now, there was a flood after I called out the blaspheming. Nothing for a long time, and suddenly over a dousin replies in 1 hour.
*smile*

Magenta is not American.

Interesting that you would just assume that she is -- why is that?
 
Aug 4, 2021
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#42
You are obviously clueless as to what blasphemy is :oops::rolleyes:
No, we probably have a different view on what it is. You can just ask, I am not complicated on this, all the grounds for the blasheming is in the bible, old testament.
 
Aug 4, 2021
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#43
Can I ask you directly?

Are you under the influence of any substances when you post?

I'm only asking because you have mentioned this as part of your history -- if you hadn't talked about it publicly, I wouldn't mention it.

I'm just asking because it's helpful when trying to empathize with a poster when you know more about what they are honestly struggling with.
Yes you may, it is friday, Had some beers, did you need to pivot again? Hahaha. Watched a game while interacting with you. How is it relevant to your biblical question? Seems to be more about me than your topic, and you calling God a racist for telling us to racially segregate, which is not true at all. Have you been drinking while reading the bible?
 
Aug 4, 2021
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#44
*smile*

Magenta is not American.

Interesting that you would just assume that she is -- why is that?
Asking a question is not assuming, another false accusation from you. She can answer for herself, I do niot do postarcheology and search up info on nicks, she gets to answer for herself. Otherwise I would be judging, and might judge her on the basis of an account for fun and not serious. Do not do that.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
13,415
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#45
Yes you may, it is friday, Had some beers, did you need to pivot again? Hahaha. Watched a game while interacting with you. How is it relevant to your biblical question? Seems to be more about me than your topic, and you calling God a racist for telling us to racially segregate, which is not true at all. Have you been drinking while reading the bible?
Thank you.

This is all I needed to know, as it explains much of what you say in your posts and why they jump around so much.

And no, I'm not a drinker, though I may have something like pasta sauce that has been cooked with wine. I also don't smoke, and have never done drugs.

Just because I have seen the pain, confusion of mind, miscommunication, and utter chaos it has brought to other people.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
13,415
3,575
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#46
Yes you may, it is friday, Had some beers, did you need to pivot again? Hahaha. Watched a game while interacting with you. How is it relevant to your biblical question? Seems to be more about me than your topic, and you calling God a racist for telling us to racially segregate, which is not true at all. Have you been drinking while reading the bible?
You asked if I was drinking while I was reading the Bible.

I can assure you that you never have to worry about me drinking while doing anything.

I discovered early in life that alcohol does not agree with my system. I become violently sick, and have since read that some people with my genetic background are missing an enzyme that breaks it down.

When people offer drinks and I decline, for the sake of simplicity, I just tell them I am allergic and can't have it.
 
Aug 4, 2021
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#47
Thank you.

This is all I needed to know, as it explains much of what you say in your posts and why they jump around so much.

And no, I'm not a drinker, though I may have something like pasta sauce that has been cooked with wine. I also don't smoke, and have never done drugs.

Just because I have seen the pain, confusion of mind, miscommunication, and utter chaos it has brought to other people.
Interesting, so you pretend you got an out of jailcard from your topic, and the blasphemything, mkay. Not my issue, between you and God. And you go to drugs, confirming you are doing threadarcheology on me. Smart move if you were reported by me, Or falsely reported me. Smart to add the pain and miscommunication that it lead to, too. Which ended up in ending communication with some. Want to add more? Or elaborate on how your miscommunication to others brought chaos to others in your life? For some reason this seems to be related to my testimony only, and a prayer request, unless you add details about your own life. Weirdly unrelated with the drugthing, unless you have read my past stuff. Fun stuff.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#48
Interesting, so you pretend you got an out of jailcard from your topic, and the blasphemything, mkay. Not my issue, between you and God. And you go to drugs, confirming you are doing threadarcheology on me. Smart move if you were reported by me, Or falsely reported me. Smart to add the pain and miscommunication that it lead to, too. Which ended up in ending communication with some. Want to add more? Or elaborate on how your miscommunication to others brought chaos to others in your life? For some reason this seems to be related to my testimony only, and a prayer request, unless you add details about your own life. Weirdly unrelated with the drugthing, unless you have read my past stuff. Fun stuff.
Jeepers. Not too long ago you were asking about smoking pot, claiming you were not an addict, although drinking and drugs had caused many problems for you in the past because you flat-out refused to quit... Then you recently chose to smoke pot and are sill drinking alcohol, while being totally hung up on some weird unBiblical definition of blasphemy. Do you really need to be informed that alcohol and drugs impair your judgment? You are so out of whack right now you do not even realize it.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#49
It's alright. I got a few extra cans of whack this morning. I found out I was out of whack so I had to make a run to pick some whack up. He can borrow one of my cans of whack. I got plenty now.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
13,415
3,575
113
#50
Interesting, so you pretend you got an out of jailcard from your topic, and the blasphemything, mkay. Not my issue, between you and God. And you go to drugs, confirming you are doing threadarcheology on me. Smart move if you were reported by me, Or falsely reported me. Smart to add the pain and miscommunication that it lead to, too. Which ended up in ending communication with some. Want to add more? Or elaborate on how your miscommunication to others brought chaos to others in your life? For some reason this seems to be related to my testimony only, and a prayer request, unless you add details about your own life. Weirdly unrelated with the drugthing, unless you have read my past stuff. Fun stuff.


Thread archeology on you? Uh, no, I was just reading threads, as I often do, and remembering what you wrote in them.

Was I not supposed to remember the things you said, or only remember certain parts of them?

As for elaborating, I dated an alcoholic for about 3 years, and wound up raising his children during that time because of it. He was also becoming abusive towards the end, which is a good part of why I left, and an even greater part as to why I've been single for a very long time. I just don't want to get into another situation like that.

And I am certainly not saying at all that anyone who struggles with alcohol is abusive or neglectful of their children. I'm just saying, that was my experience with someone who was caught in the midst of that. We all struggle with something. I've had friends who struggle with these things and I love them dearly and pray for them regularly.

Let me know when you are completely sober, and have been so for a few days, and then we can have a reasonable discussion.

I'm simply speaking from my own experience, and I realize others' might be different.

But I have never been able to reason with someone influenced by a substance, and so I won't even attempt it unless they have been sober for at least a day or two, so that they can start thinking clearly again.

And if that never happens, then it will be impossible to ever have a real conversation, and I wish you all the best on your journey.
 
Aug 4, 2021
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#51
Jeepers. Not too long ago you were asking about smoking pot, claiming you were not an addict, although drinking and drugs had caused many problems for you in the past because you flat-out refused to quit... Then you recently chose to smoke pot and are sill drinking alcohol, while being totally hung on on some weird unBiblical definition of blasphemy. Do you really need to be informed that alcohol and drugs impair your judgment? You are so out of whack right now you do not even realize it.
What drugs am I using? I did a poll if you are honest. I asked you if it mattered more to stay away from natural drugs, babystuff like weed or people who needed weed to socialize, regarding meeting my former friend and dealer. You declinded to answer. So I went there and had a chat,

Found several bits of hash in my apartment, I have them here. Had them for over a week, just laying there in a drawer, poor addict if I was. Hope you are happy trying to use this against me, but that was never the issue, the issue was rivotril, some pills that make you a complete bozo. Which was pushed on me, as you know according to your post, and made me cut that former friend from my life. Weed is just recreational, as all people know, unless they are a biblethumping old lady. Nobody is addicted to weed. Do not do drugs. Since you do threadarcheology, I do a recap for others.

Only felt addicted 3 times in my life, rivotril, which may not have been marked properly and be someting else, snorting uppers an antire weekend, and smoking crack. I wasted my life ast those times, ended it, and will not have anything to do with anybody involved at those times ever on the former level. Can meet them as humanbeings, no more than that. Not family, not friends. End of story. Smoking crack was me alone in a dark place alone, as you know if you did the archeology, not on anybody besides myself. What does it matter to this subject? What is your objective? How do I refuse to quit? Quit what? I do not use pharma. I reject drugs. Really weird that you make it personal, and do threadarcheology, and some of your info is from other sites, .
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#52
It's alright. I got a few extra cans of whack this morning. I found out I was out of whack so I had
to make a run to pick some whack up. He can borrow one of my cans of whack. I got plenty now.


:giggle:
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
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#53
Women assume more risk with sexual activity on multiple levels. So they were naturally more buttoned-up/guarded for eons. If you wanted to prevent out-of-wedlock births, the easiest and shortest route would be to teach women sexual virtue. They were already more likely to practice it than men anyhow.

This was taken as a biological and cultural given until the sexual revolution.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
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#54
Hey Everyone,

This thread was inspired by a conversation with a friend about church culture, as well as reading through some posts here in a thread about The Purity Culture (though I haven't had a chance to watch the video that was shared.)

I grew up in WELS Lutheran schools, and while I can't remember the pastors or teachers ever explicitly saying this (because sex was never talked about except not to have anything to do with it unless you were married,) but my home church had a very strongly implied culture that although abstinence was preached, women in particular were shouldered with the responsibility of making sure nothing improper happened.

I can't remember anyone specifically saying this, but you could definitely feel the air of "GOOD girls put up walls and surround them with barbed wire, electric fences; BAD girls are loose and do all those horrible things that a GOOD girl would NEVER do."

How was this so strongly imprinted without every being specifically stated?

I have often talked about how if a girl became pregnant at my Lutheran high school, the mothers were kept from coming back. In the one case that happened while I was there, the mother could not come back, but the father finished out his time at the school. The mother was heavily condemned amongst the gossiping circles, but I never heard anything about the father.


In a similar fashion, other kids talked about other girls who were supposedly "doing things" with their boyfriends (you always heard about how "bad" the girls were -- never the boys,) and by listening to how the adults talked about single and divorced mothers (which was something very strongly condemned in the underground currents of my home church.) Any girl or woman who was suspected of "immoral behavior" was openly whispered about (I realize this phrase is an oxymoron but it's extremely fitting,) and there was absolutely no mention or judgment of the men involved.

Now, let me be clear in that I am NOT in any way, shape, or form trying to knock the men here.

But as I've said in many other threads, the popular boys at my Lutheran high school were known for bragging about going to the local strip club every weekend, and one openly showed off the condoms he kept in his wallet. But no one seemed to pay any mind to that or ever say anything derogatory about them -- other kids saw them as the cool rebels whom others aspired to be like and be with.

I've always found it to be an intriguing, albeit disturbing phenomenon within even the church culture that women are always seen as the ones to say no, stop anything from going to far, and being responsible for holding the key to the gates of sexual morality. Now I realize that this attitude has a very long social history and culture outside the church as well.

But why is it still like this within the church?

* Why isn't there more emphasis on the equal role of both men and women to remain morally sound and keep things that way? Why does even the church hold on to old-fashioned beliefs that it's mostly the woman's fault if something happens?

Or maybe that's just the church culture I'VE been raised in. If yours has been different, please tell us about it! I would actually be very relieved to hear that I'm in the minority and that everyone else's churches hold both men and women equally responsible.

* In your experience, how much emphasis is put on boys saying "No," "Stop," and "I Won't Do That"?

* Why are women more seriously punished for sexual sins?

Again, I would love to hear examples that counter my own experiences. I grew up listening to church people wagging their tongues about, for example, a divorced mother whose daughter I went to school with, and the women I heard talking about her claimed that the mother had "a revolving door for men." (I was so young at the time that I thought this mean an actual revolving door that was installed into the side of their house.)

I have no idea if this was true or not about the woman's personal life or not, and I'm not sure that the people who talked about her really knew, either.

But I can't recall that I have ever heard anyone in my church environments talk about a single father having a revolving door for women, whether or not it was true.

* Why is this, and what have your experiences been?

* Did God really intend for sexual morality to rest more heavily upon women's shoulders?

* This is NOT meant to be a He Vs. She thread at all -- to me, it's not so much about gender, but rather, what we're taught about the different genders, is it Biblically sound, and how can this be changed if needed?
Well to attempt to get this thread back on track....

I do understand what you're talking about, and I think I can agree that while I don't know of any church that explicitly teaches that men's sexual sins are excuseable but women's are not; you do get the feeling (or at least I did in the purity era of my teen years) that it's a great moral failing for a woman to commit a sexual sin and a common and rather consequence free sin for a man to do so. No it's not Biblical but here are a few reasons for that most of which are more or less cultural.

Historically, men have been the pursuers and seen as the ones who want sex more. That kind of by default leaves the women to be the ones who give the yes or no that actually determines if the sin takes place. It's kind of assumed that the sex-crazed man will try to start something but that since he's sex crazed by the beautiful woman he really can't help himself. Culturally this was deep enough as a teen that I remember in the one film we watched in sex ed class on saying we're going to far, out of I don't know how many couples featured starting to make out in all but one it was the girl who called it off. And the one where the guy called it off had all the girls in class applauding. Whether it's true or not, the default cultural view is that men are always up for sex with just about any decent looking woman around. So I imagine that even in the church (usually led by men who have fought and often lost that fight to some extent), it's kind of assumed that men are always under siege sexually and will inevitably fall (let's not be too harsh on them, they couldn't help it) while a good Christian woman shouldn't even be interested in sex. But it definitely can lead to all kinds of crap like women thinking that if they show any hint of sexuality or desirability then they've awakened the beast in the man and are partly responsible for him pushing her boundaries.

Women also tend to be the ones who do most of the gossiping and they usually are focused on what other women (or families) are doing. So the misbehavior of the single guys probably only comes to the attention of these gossips if he's misbehaving with one of the girls in church in which case he is seen as behaving "normally" but she is seen as being a below average Christian girl. Who is going to tell the gossipy women about the misbehavior of the boys? Their mothers (never, their bad parenting would be fodder for the next round of gossip), the girls in church who probably don't know that better men exist since these are the church boys doing these things?

And of course, the potential consequences of sexual sin are much more visible for the girl than the guy. And that's where it kind of gets interesting with your Christian schools, they don't expel students on suspicion of having sex, but pregnancy is proof and only one guilty party is indisputably known ( even if she wasn't completely sober or consenting when she got pregnant). Could be similar circumstances for any single mothers, until she tells the story you don't know if she sinned, was forced, or was married but the marriage ended. I think this is getting some better as far as church attitudes, but mostly because it's getting so much worse in society it's now plenty of people in the church and not just those heathens outside the church.
 

MatthewWestfieldUK

Well-known member
May 13, 2021
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#55
One of the fundamental sexist pillars that u highlighted.
Men failing and they go unchallenged.
It starts at home with sons being spoilt
 

TheIndianGirl

Well-known member
Nov 22, 2019
1,522
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#56
I think the answer is simple. Men expect "good" women to be virgins. This is not traditionally expected of men, even "good" men.

Being a "good" woman is important because this provides her with livelihood (a home, a family, security, etc.). So it was, and still is important for many women, to be virgins.

Why do men want their women to be virgins? It comes down to ownership, so the man feels that the woman is 100 percent his. This is way too psychological for me to explain. Maybe a man can explain better.

Why are men not expected to be virgins? The Bible has examples where men have had more than one sexual partner (as wives and/or handmaids) at a time, where it was considered acceptable. However, women only had one man at a time. So, these types of examples show that men had freedom to have multiple sexual partners, however women had less freedom in that regard and are restricted to only one man. If a man was rich or powerful (Abraham, Solomon, David, etc.), it was widely accepted/assumed that he will have multiple sex partners. All these examples also show that men desire women and that one woman isn't enough. However, because of Biblical rules especially in the NT, they limit themselves to one woman.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,966
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#57
hmm I dont know wasnt raised in church culture!

And the churches I attended seem to put equal emphasis on boys and girls to behave themselves but I cant say for sure what was taught to adolescents.

Sorry cant help answer your question, but the Bible does say that everyone (male and female) is given the aBility to control their own body

Its only if you are married that the wife has power over her husband and the husband has power over the wife's body. That is why CONSENT is important...anything that is not is pretty much rape.

You can be tricked or seduced, or you might be the seducer. But generally humans just didnt really know how to keep from sin till Jesus came along.

The woman caught in adultery...Jesus looked at all the men with rocks in their hands and asked THEM about THEIR sin.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#58
The woman caught in adultery...Jesus looked at all the men with rocks in their hands and asked THEM about THEIR sin.
Hmm... interesting question. WAS it all men holding rocks? Were there no women at all in the crowd? Given the woman's place in society at the time, it is believable that it might have been all men.
 

EternalFire

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
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#59
Obviously because women are givers of life, and supposed to cherish that gift. And it applies to men too, but mothers are the caregivers so they must be purer. A father guides, he does not nurture. Theese are both evolutionary roles and genderroles from natural law. Why would you need churchpeople to tell you this?
Women must be purer? Please point me to that Scripture.
 
Aug 4, 2021
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#60
Women must be purer? Please point me to that Scripture.
I will not give you scripture, I typed that women are caregivers and must be purer, because that is the standard society has set. What some calls a misogynistic world, and is tradcon. Like it or not, that is the world you live in. Just stating the reality you live in, do theory and discuss the utopia you want instead, but I am not really into that now.