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L
*[[Joh 15:5]] KJV* I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
There is only one vine not two, so the olive trees in Revelation 11 cannot be two separate churches Jew and Gentile when we are all part of the same vine. Zechariah which speaks of two olive trees and supplying oil to the candlesticks is a correct underdtanding.
There is only one vine not two, so the olive trees in Revelation 11 cannot be two separate churches Jew and Gentile when we are all part of the same vine. Zechariah which speaks of two olive trees and supplying oil to the candlesticks is a correct underdtanding.
B
He is true to the system we teach. The problem is, you can't see beyond that point. We tell you it is a physical temple. Why? You can't put a court inside of people and we, as temples of God, are one. I am my own temple of God and you are another temple of God. I am, in no way, shape or form responsible for how you handle your temple of God. If you or I want to defile it, it is not the others responsibility. There are not a whole bunch of temples of God in me or anybody else. Just one and that's me. The court indicates that this is a physical temple. Not a person. Not everywhere you read "temple" means something other than "temple". Sometimes it is a temple. Plain and simple.
You need to expand your research and be more open minded and try different ideas. Instead of criticizing other ideas which leads to disarray, consider ALL possibilities. I don't know you at all because I'm new here. I am assuming that you believe in a futuristic end time tribulation down the road. Probably with the antichrist, false prophet, Satan and possibly with a peace treaty along with many other things. My rhetorical question which I do not want answered here, I just want you to think about it. As I said, I don't know anything about you at all. Here is the question. What evidence (other than the Bible) do you have that you can verify all these futuristic events are going to happen the way you say they will? Point is, you have no evidence. No antichrist is on the scene or anything else for that matter. Neither you or I can predict the future. It is fine to say Jesus will return in the future. It is NOT OK to say Jesus will return on such and such day. I predict a Superbowl game in less than one year as of the dating of this post. It will be the NFC against the AFC. Everyone would buy into that. Now, tell me if you'll buy into this. The 2014 Superbowl game will be the Patriots against the Vikings. The final score will be Vikings 17, Patriots 42. The Patriots total yards will be 227 of which 59 are rushing yards and the Vikings total yards are.......Get the picture? Would you believe me if I told you I have definitive Scriptural proof that I can tell you the outcome of that Superbowl game? For me, certainly not! What do you think me credibility would be if none of it occurred yet you believed me whole heartily and bet on a sure fire win thinking you knew the outcome only to find out neither team made it to the Superbowl. Maybe neither team made the playoffs!! You won't believe me again, that's for sure!
You need to expand your research and be more open minded and try different ideas. Instead of criticizing other ideas which leads to disarray, consider ALL possibilities. I don't know you at all because I'm new here. I am assuming that you believe in a futuristic end time tribulation down the road. Probably with the antichrist, false prophet, Satan and possibly with a peace treaty along with many other things. My rhetorical question which I do not want answered here, I just want you to think about it. As I said, I don't know anything about you at all. Here is the question. What evidence (other than the Bible) do you have that you can verify all these futuristic events are going to happen the way you say they will? Point is, you have no evidence. No antichrist is on the scene or anything else for that matter. Neither you or I can predict the future. It is fine to say Jesus will return in the future. It is NOT OK to say Jesus will return on such and such day. I predict a Superbowl game in less than one year as of the dating of this post. It will be the NFC against the AFC. Everyone would buy into that. Now, tell me if you'll buy into this. The 2014 Superbowl game will be the Patriots against the Vikings. The final score will be Vikings 17, Patriots 42. The Patriots total yards will be 227 of which 59 are rushing yards and the Vikings total yards are.......Get the picture? Would you believe me if I told you I have definitive Scriptural proof that I can tell you the outcome of that Superbowl game? For me, certainly not! What do you think me credibility would be if none of it occurred yet you believed me whole heartily and bet on a sure fire win thinking you knew the outcome only to find out neither team made it to the Superbowl. Maybe neither team made the playoffs!! You won't believe me again, that's for sure!
L
For the record I am not a futurist. The 42 months have been fulfilled already. If you are teaching that the temple in Rev 11:1 is a literal temple then you are not true to your teachings on hermeneutic principles because Rev 11:19 says the temple of God is in heaven and with that being said then you need to study what the court is.
Worry not for they are not separate in spirit, only in time. I already named them.
They are the elect sealed out of the tribe of Israel in Rev 7 and the great multitude out of all nations come out of the great tribulation to then be shepherded by those elect.
When it says, Revelation 7:17 "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
That means through his body elect he will lead them. His body of elect are the ones born again to have life giving water flow from their bellies, signifying them fit to nurture others to Christ in their womb.
John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Therefore the channel, indeed the "living fountains of water."
They are the elect sealed out of the tribe of Israel in Rev 7 and the great multitude out of all nations come out of the great tribulation to then be shepherded by those elect.
When it says, Revelation 7:17 "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
That means through his body elect he will lead them. His body of elect are the ones born again to have life giving water flow from their bellies, signifying them fit to nurture others to Christ in their womb.
John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Therefore the channel, indeed the "living fountains of water."
L
Revelation 11:3-4 KJV
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Notice the similarities with Zechariah
Zechariah 4:2-3 KJV
(2) And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
(3) And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zechariah 4:11-14 KJV
(11) Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
(12) And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
(13) And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
(14) Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
The similarities in these two chapters cannot be ignored. To ignore it is to ignore how Christ used the Bible. Christ used all the Bible.
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Notice the similarities with Zechariah
Zechariah 4:2-3 KJV
(2) And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
(3) And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zechariah 4:11-14 KJV
(11) Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
(12) And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
(13) And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
(14) Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
The similarities in these two chapters cannot be ignored. To ignore it is to ignore how Christ used the Bible. Christ used all the Bible.
That fits well.
Many see the elect as anyone God has called. But for now the emphasis has been placed of God upon cleansing a government for mankind. So, when we read that Jesus said, Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." We need also to understand that this specifically refers to being chosen (aka, elected) to rule as king/priest with Christ. That is Christs first priority at this time;grooming his government and getting it ready.
Therefore, not being chosen ought not to be viewed as an automatic sentence of death upon those not chosen. Originally that offer of becoming a special nation, the whole of which would be seen as the government over the entire earth if it could keep that Old Covenant, is what those Jews to whom Jesus was talking when he said that at Matthew 22:14, understood. They knew Jesus meant that guaranteed life due being sealed as God's special possession as God's government over the world, was what the promises were about.
The world does not lose out because of that applying only to a certain number of special elected ones. The entire purpose is so that all nations of the earth could bless themselves by means of Abraham's seed.
And Abraham's seed is selected or chosen out of the many called from out of all nations of men for that very reason. No one will lack representation able to sympathize with them.
Many see the elect as anyone God has called. But for now the emphasis has been placed of God upon cleansing a government for mankind. So, when we read that Jesus said, Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." We need also to understand that this specifically refers to being chosen (aka, elected) to rule as king/priest with Christ. That is Christs first priority at this time;grooming his government and getting it ready.
Therefore, not being chosen ought not to be viewed as an automatic sentence of death upon those not chosen. Originally that offer of becoming a special nation, the whole of which would be seen as the government over the entire earth if it could keep that Old Covenant, is what those Jews to whom Jesus was talking when he said that at Matthew 22:14, understood. They knew Jesus meant that guaranteed life due being sealed as God's special possession as God's government over the world, was what the promises were about.
The world does not lose out because of that applying only to a certain number of special elected ones. The entire purpose is so that all nations of the earth could bless themselves by means of Abraham's seed.
And Abraham's seed is selected or chosen out of the many called from out of all nations of men for that very reason. No one will lack representation able to sympathize with them.
In every generation since that time there have been many called but few chosen. Yet the called and the chosen have worked side by side bearing witness to God in this earth. And the great multitude out of all of the nations is a beautiful climax for those of that generation who were called but not chosen.
Election is about government. It is a race for the crown. Kingship. Not a perishable crown, but an incorruptible crown. Not everyone need to be kings and priests. The nations need such ones to receive their blessing through as was promised to Abraham that his seed would be to them. And we learned through Paul that meant seed by faith.
Election is about government. It is a race for the crown. Kingship. Not a perishable crown, but an incorruptible crown. Not everyone need to be kings and priests. The nations need such ones to receive their blessing through as was promised to Abraham that his seed would be to them. And we learned through Paul that meant seed by faith.
B
That doesn't make sense. I probably would tend to agree with you if we were just studying just that portion only. Honestly, it sounds appealing but it is only justifiable only if it stands alone. Start plugging everything else into it, it fall apart. Either that one section of verse is right and everything else is wrong or that section of verse is wrong and everything else is right. I go for that section is wrong.
I even had a Deacon of a church tell me that Jesus was in error. This guy is a pre-tribber and when Jesus said he was coming back after the trib, he said Jesus was in error. To clarify what he said, I asked him this. "Since this is a red letter edition of the Bible and these are Jesus' words, are you calling Jesus a liar?" His response was YES!!! Later on he came back to me with all his buddies trying to say I dragged his name in the mud claiming I made up the entire thing to make him look bad. I did no such thing. He did it to himself. Even though he believes in a event (pre-trib) that has no writings to prove it, he's so hard headed not to look at other points to be sure he's right. He won't do it. He even said because (in essence) that I didn't believe in what he believed, I WILL be burning in hell and so will Ellis. Why? He only read the first few pages of Hidden Beast II without understanding ANYTHING the author was saying. He didn't like it all without knowing what it was all about. So we burn in hell. So be it.
I even had a Deacon of a church tell me that Jesus was in error. This guy is a pre-tribber and when Jesus said he was coming back after the trib, he said Jesus was in error. To clarify what he said, I asked him this. "Since this is a red letter edition of the Bible and these are Jesus' words, are you calling Jesus a liar?" His response was YES!!! Later on he came back to me with all his buddies trying to say I dragged his name in the mud claiming I made up the entire thing to make him look bad. I did no such thing. He did it to himself. Even though he believes in a event (pre-trib) that has no writings to prove it, he's so hard headed not to look at other points to be sure he's right. He won't do it. He even said because (in essence) that I didn't believe in what he believed, I WILL be burning in hell and so will Ellis. Why? He only read the first few pages of Hidden Beast II without understanding ANYTHING the author was saying. He didn't like it all without knowing what it was all about. So we burn in hell. So be it.
B
I will. Thank you. I see no repenting necessary. I will say this. Prophecy is tough to learn. There are so many theologies out there. Just how sure are you that you got it absolutely right? There are a lot of areas I don't have a reasonable answer to and I won't claim them to be Gospel. I have not mentioned any as of yet but there are a few.
The way I see it is that we can prove Bible Scriptures based on historical evidence. No offense to you, but can you show evidence of the heaven temple? That is if you look at it as a futuristic event. I don't mean by this verse and that verse. What if it was something totally different that you and I never thought of. I don't need a verse out of the Bible to prove that Jesus died on the cross. That is a historical fact! I can tell you what is going on right now but I can't tell you what the world will be like a year from now. The Bible proves itself, particularly with prophecy, by historical accounts. I too can tell you of up and coming events and say Scripture says this and this will happen just like this in the near future. Will I be wrong doing so? Absolutely!
The way I see it is that we can prove Bible Scriptures based on historical evidence. No offense to you, but can you show evidence of the heaven temple? That is if you look at it as a futuristic event. I don't mean by this verse and that verse. What if it was something totally different that you and I never thought of. I don't need a verse out of the Bible to prove that Jesus died on the cross. That is a historical fact! I can tell you what is going on right now but I can't tell you what the world will be like a year from now. The Bible proves itself, particularly with prophecy, by historical accounts. I too can tell you of up and coming events and say Scripture says this and this will happen just like this in the near future. Will I be wrong doing so? Absolutely!
L
There is a sanctuary in heaven it is in the Bible:-
Hebrews 8:2 KJV
(2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Hebrews 8:5 KJV
(5) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8:2 KJV
(2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Hebrews 8:5 KJV
(5) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
B
Just as I said. Unable to answer a simple question. I said without Bible Scriptures, can you prove that? The answer is no. You can't prove historically or otherwise outside of the Bible that the temple is in heaven as I can't tell you the exact day of Christ's return.
Just forget it. We're getting nowhere. If you can't answer my questions yet want answers from me, we might as well go our separate ways.
Just forget it. We're getting nowhere. If you can't answer my questions yet want answers from me, we might as well go our separate ways.
B
You probably won't understand but history CONFIRMS the Bible. Doctrine IS the Bible. The Bible cannot defend itself for if doctrine says this is what happened on so an so time and no such event was recorded, the Bible might be wrong. Get that type of thing always happening, then the Bible is a false teaching. The Quran is a false book. Why? That book can't get a story correct, can't add correctly, claims the Jews are devils in many ways which is a direct contradiction to HISTORY!!!! Yes, history. Islam claims Jesus first was a Muslim and that he had Muslim followers. Jesus also never died on the cross. Some look-a-like died on the cross in his place and them Muslims don't know who that was. History shows that these events NEVER happened as the Quran has stated. Based on HISTORICAL facts, the Bible is correct ant tested to be authentic.
There are 1.5 billion souls indoctrinated into the 23 year record of Mohammed's stand-alone 7th century religion, that is conspicuously the direct opposite of how God revealed Himself over 1600 years, through all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants, for 3500 years.
This is history backing up the Bible to be correct.
Of coarse, this is just a basic statement to validate Scriptures. I don't plan on detailing it completely.
This is history backing up the Bible to be correct.
Of coarse, this is just a basic statement to validate Scriptures. I don't plan on detailing it completely.
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W
many scholarly commentaries note, that Rev 11 alludes to Zech 4, even as Rev 9 alludes to Zech 6.
Babylon = Harlot = adulterous unfaithful apostate Israel (common OT metaphor) = physical Jerusalem
Heavenly-woman (Rev 12) = faithful True Israel = New Jerusalem = beloved city (Rev 20)
Revelation is a "tale of two cities", apostate Jewish Jerusalem vs. faithful Christian "New Jerusalem" = Church (symbolized as a heavenly Temple City in Rev 21-22, wherein Christians are Jasper bricks in the wall, per Eph 1-2).
Rev 11 refers to the destruction of "Babylon" = physical Jerusalem, in 70 AD. That the two witnesses were not killed by the Jews, but only by the "Beast coming up out of the abyss" = pagan Roman empire, implies that the Jews did not have Divine Authority over them, and so somehow echoes the Jews getting Jesus Crucified through the Romans, b/c they could not execute anyone (John 18). During the Jewish war vs. Rome:
Rev 11 resembles Josephus' account of Jerusalem in that war, albeit somewhat jumbled. The two witnesses are also a jumble, for they allude to Joshua & Zerubbabel (Zech 4) after the Babylonian captivity, yet are described with the powers of Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah from before the Babylonian captivity.
Rev 11 occurs after Rev 10, where John eats a small scroll, alluding to Ezekiel 2, where Ezekiel ate a bitter scroll, before Prophesying to rebellious Israel
The general gist seems to be, that in 70 AD, the Jews of Jerusalem were rebellious, unfaithful, and apostate; and that all of the Law & Prophets were witnessing against them.
Speculating, Rev 10 alludes to Ez 2, casting John as Ezekiel, going to rebellious Israel. So, in some strange sense, John must be one of the 2 witnesses. If you look at the jumble of Josephus-ness in Rev 11, and Zech 4, you keep seeing the names Jesus / Joshua, Ananias / Hananiah / Johanan / John. In some strange sense, the 2 witnesses may somehow represent Jesus / Joshua (Salvation [of God]), John / Johanan (Grace [of God]). After "Salvation & Grace" were removed from Jerusalem / Babylon, the city was sacked (Rev 11) in 70 AD. If so, then the message may be "Salvation & Grace are not in physical Jerusalem and its physical temple, but in the Spiritual New Jerusalem Temple City = Church = Rev 21-22"; the Romans destroyed the former, in 70 AD, but were Spiritually converted by the latter, in the 4th century AD = Rev 19's Word-warrior.
Jesus = True Temple (John 2)
Crucifixion = destruction of Temple
30 AD = 586 BC
Jews of Jerusalem = Chaldeans of Babylon
70 AD = 539 BC
Titus of Rome = Cyrus of Persia
Crucifixion = destruction of Temple
30 AD = 586 BC
Jews of Jerusalem = Chaldeans of Babylon
70 AD = 539 BC
Titus of Rome = Cyrus of Persia
Babylon = Harlot = adulterous unfaithful apostate Israel (common OT metaphor) = physical Jerusalem
Heavenly-woman (Rev 12) = faithful True Israel = New Jerusalem = beloved city (Rev 20)
Revelation is a "tale of two cities", apostate Jewish Jerusalem vs. faithful Christian "New Jerusalem" = Church (symbolized as a heavenly Temple City in Rev 21-22, wherein Christians are Jasper bricks in the wall, per Eph 1-2).
Rev 11 refers to the destruction of "Babylon" = physical Jerusalem, in 70 AD. That the two witnesses were not killed by the Jews, but only by the "Beast coming up out of the abyss" = pagan Roman empire, implies that the Jews did not have Divine Authority over them, and so somehow echoes the Jews getting Jesus Crucified through the Romans, b/c they could not execute anyone (John 18). During the Jewish war vs. Rome:
- a Prophet named Jesus ben Ananias ceaselessly roamed Jerusalem, with the words "woe woe to Jerusalem"
- an earthquake struck the city (during the Zealot Temple Siege in winter 67/68 AD), after which thousands were slain in violence
- amongst which, two High Priests (Ananias & Joshua) were slain, and their bodies left to rot for several days
- after which, Jerusalem was divided into 3 factions (John of Giscala, Eleazar ben Simon, Idumeans)
Rev 11 resembles Josephus' account of Jerusalem in that war, albeit somewhat jumbled. The two witnesses are also a jumble, for they allude to Joshua & Zerubbabel (Zech 4) after the Babylonian captivity, yet are described with the powers of Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah from before the Babylonian captivity.
Rev 11 occurs after Rev 10, where John eats a small scroll, alluding to Ezekiel 2, where Ezekiel ate a bitter scroll, before Prophesying to rebellious Israel
- Rev 10 = Ez 2
- Rev 11 = Zech 4
The general gist seems to be, that in 70 AD, the Jews of Jerusalem were rebellious, unfaithful, and apostate; and that all of the Law & Prophets were witnessing against them.
Speculating, Rev 10 alludes to Ez 2, casting John as Ezekiel, going to rebellious Israel. So, in some strange sense, John must be one of the 2 witnesses. If you look at the jumble of Josephus-ness in Rev 11, and Zech 4, you keep seeing the names Jesus / Joshua, Ananias / Hananiah / Johanan / John. In some strange sense, the 2 witnesses may somehow represent Jesus / Joshua (Salvation [of God]), John / Johanan (Grace [of God]). After "Salvation & Grace" were removed from Jerusalem / Babylon, the city was sacked (Rev 11) in 70 AD. If so, then the message may be "Salvation & Grace are not in physical Jerusalem and its physical temple, but in the Spiritual New Jerusalem Temple City = Church = Rev 21-22"; the Romans destroyed the former, in 70 AD, but were Spiritually converted by the latter, in the 4th century AD = Rev 19's Word-warrior.
W
that seems quite clear
Rev 11 alludes to Zech 4 (with one lamp-stand), but modifies the allusion to incorporate Romans 11 (two lamp-stands). As the Arch-angle (Michael?) in Rev 10 straddled the land & sea, so Rev 11 straddles Zech 4 & Romans 11.
The Two Witnesses embody:
i.e. the Two Witnesses embody every aspect of True Israel, throughout time & space. All was witnessing against apostate Jewish Jerusalem, in 70 AD.
Rev 11 alludes to Zech 4 (with one lamp-stand), but modifies the allusion to incorporate Romans 11 (two lamp-stands). As the Arch-angle (Michael?) in Rev 10 straddled the land & sea, so Rev 11 straddles Zech 4 & Romans 11.
The Two Witnesses embody:
- faithful Jews & gentiles
- Priests & Prophets
- pre-Babylon & post-Babylon
i.e. the Two Witnesses embody every aspect of True Israel, throughout time & space. All was witnessing against apostate Jewish Jerusalem, in 70 AD.