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I haven't read all of this thread, but if it's like any other, there are disagreements for sure. I can say though, without the Old testament, the New Testament wouldn't hold the gravity that God intended it to, and without the New Testament we would still be waiting for fulfillment. Jesus declares, by His own words, that without the writings of Moses, how would we know that His words were true? Hopefully, this scripture will help. I think our God is great enough to preserve what we need to understand the truth.
John 5:44-47 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 5:44-47 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
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DEUT.6 [25] And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments. OBSERVE TO DO! We will fall short.
PSALM 119 [172] My tongue shall speak of thy word: for ALL THY COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.[173] Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.[174] I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
For ALL thy commandments are righteousness (even the keeping of the sabbath). Also mentioned here is salvation. Being saved.
ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and THY RIGHTEOUSNESS as the waves of the sea:
In Isaiah OUR REDEEMER tells us we are to keep the commandments if we are to be righteous. You do know who our Redeemer is...right
The new testament says the same thing the old testament said.
LUKE 1 [6] And they were BOTH RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, WALKING IN ALL THE COMMANDMENTS and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
1 PETER 4 [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[18] And IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
And if not for the gift of “grace” through faith no one would be saved for all have fallen short.
it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments. OBSERVE TO DO! We will fall short.
PSALM 119 [172] My tongue shall speak of thy word: for ALL THY COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.[173] Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.[174] I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
For ALL thy commandments are righteousness (even the keeping of the sabbath). Also mentioned here is salvation. Being saved.
ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and THY RIGHTEOUSNESS as the waves of the sea:
In Isaiah OUR REDEEMER tells us we are to keep the commandments if we are to be righteous. You do know who our Redeemer is...right
The new testament says the same thing the old testament said.
LUKE 1 [6] And they were BOTH RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, WALKING IN ALL THE COMMANDMENTS and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
1 PETER 4 [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[18] And IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
And if not for the gift of “grace” through faith no one would be saved for all have fallen short.
You are not truthful. You are subtle and sneaky. I used to think it was because you didn't know any better. Now I think you do it on purpose. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the trial period is over.
You attempt to categorize the law, as many judaizing legalists do, and teach that we are not under a certain portion but still under a certain other portion. It shows your lack of understanding. Then you pretend that this is not the issue at all and you have no idea why someone would say that to you...
If you take the 10 commandments and call them the Law of Love, that doesn't change the fact that its the Law, and that its still the 10 commandments. The commandment to love the lord your God with all of your heart, mind and soul is a SUMMARY of the first 4 commandments. The commandment to love your neighbor as yourself is a SUMMARY of the final 6 commandments.
Those two laws are the summary of your condemnation that is contained in the law. Do you really love God with all your heart mind and soul? Do you really love your neighbor as yourself? And if you do manage these two things can you keep doing it by your own will and carnal effort?
Of course not. The solution to this is the same EXACT solution to the 10 commandments written on stone. When you find out you can't do it perfectly, or even very well, you come to the Lord Jesus. You ask for His Blessing. Without His CONTINUAL blessing we are unable to be a blessing to others.
The solution is not to place yourself under laws and try by your own effort to keep them. The solution is to abide in Christ, where all blessings flow and these blessings will proceed through you over into others.
You can't pretend to be under law and abide in Christ at the same time. You have to behold one or the other. You already should know that you couldn't keep the Law by your own power. You already should know you need a Saviour. If you knew you needed a Saviour once, what caused you to think you didn't need Him for all time?
Before you come back with your usual ignorance about teaching "disobedience" by not being under the law, is there any disobedience in abiding in Christ? BY somehow not looking to the law, but looking to Christ instead, can that cause disobedience? By not beholding sin, but beholding Christ, will we somehow be off our guard and forget to ask for forgiveness of something? Will we be in any danger by Abiding in Christ and not looking to the law to examine ourselves or increase our "wisdom"? Can Christ do in you greater things than you can by the law?
It kind of shows you where your faith is, doesn't it?
You attempt to categorize the law, as many judaizing legalists do, and teach that we are not under a certain portion but still under a certain other portion. It shows your lack of understanding. Then you pretend that this is not the issue at all and you have no idea why someone would say that to you...
If you take the 10 commandments and call them the Law of Love, that doesn't change the fact that its the Law, and that its still the 10 commandments. The commandment to love the lord your God with all of your heart, mind and soul is a SUMMARY of the first 4 commandments. The commandment to love your neighbor as yourself is a SUMMARY of the final 6 commandments.
Those two laws are the summary of your condemnation that is contained in the law. Do you really love God with all your heart mind and soul? Do you really love your neighbor as yourself? And if you do manage these two things can you keep doing it by your own will and carnal effort?
Of course not. The solution to this is the same EXACT solution to the 10 commandments written on stone. When you find out you can't do it perfectly, or even very well, you come to the Lord Jesus. You ask for His Blessing. Without His CONTINUAL blessing we are unable to be a blessing to others.
The solution is not to place yourself under laws and try by your own effort to keep them. The solution is to abide in Christ, where all blessings flow and these blessings will proceed through you over into others.
You can't pretend to be under law and abide in Christ at the same time. You have to behold one or the other. You already should know that you couldn't keep the Law by your own power. You already should know you need a Saviour. If you knew you needed a Saviour once, what caused you to think you didn't need Him for all time?
Before you come back with your usual ignorance about teaching "disobedience" by not being under the law, is there any disobedience in abiding in Christ? BY somehow not looking to the law, but looking to Christ instead, can that cause disobedience? By not beholding sin, but beholding Christ, will we somehow be off our guard and forget to ask for forgiveness of something? Will we be in any danger by Abiding in Christ and not looking to the law to examine ourselves or increase our "wisdom"? Can Christ do in you greater things than you can by the law?
It kind of shows you where your faith is, doesn't it?
Id like to hear your spin on below scripture. Do you know who opened His mouth in a parable? Lets start there
PSALM 78
[1] Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
[2] I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN A PARABLE: I will utter dark sayings of old:
[3] Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
[4] We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
[5] For HE ESTABLISHED A TESTIMONY IN JACOB, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
[6] That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
[7] THAT THEY MIGHT SET THEIR HOPE IN GOD, AND NOT FORGET THE WORKS OF GOD, BUT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS:
[8] And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
[9] The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.
[10] They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;
[11] And forgat his works, and his wonders that he had shewed them.
PSALM 78
[1] Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
[2] I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN A PARABLE: I will utter dark sayings of old:
[3] Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
[4] We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
[5] For HE ESTABLISHED A TESTIMONY IN JACOB, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
[6] That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
[7] THAT THEY MIGHT SET THEIR HOPE IN GOD, AND NOT FORGET THE WORKS OF GOD, BUT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS:
[8] And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
[9] The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.
[10] They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;
[11] And forgat his works, and his wonders that he had shewed them.
Uhhh...Abe was keeping the commandments. Do you think someone goofed while writing Genesis 26?
GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.
So why was Abraham observing to keep Gods 10 commandments? He obeyed Gods "voice"
GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.
So why was Abraham observing to keep Gods 10 commandments? He obeyed Gods "voice"
Abraham had faith that God would provide for the acts that God asked Abraham to do.
God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son.
Abraham had faith that God would provide His Own Sacrifice.
That is how the commandments, statutes, laws and His charge are kept. By faith that God will provide for the performance of them.
When Abraham "bent" the truth and told Pharoah that Sarah was his sister, who did God Blame? Not Abraham. Why? Because Abraham was righteous before God by Faith.
Romans 4:1-3
[SUP]1[/SUP]What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son.
Abraham had faith that God would provide His Own Sacrifice.
That is how the commandments, statutes, laws and His charge are kept. By faith that God will provide for the performance of them.
When Abraham "bent" the truth and told Pharoah that Sarah was his sister, who did God Blame? Not Abraham. Why? Because Abraham was righteous before God by Faith.
Romans 4:1-3
[SUP]1[/SUP]What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
You know John832 I think they really believe they cannot sin even though they don't follow Gods law. Ive seen you time and time and time and time again say you will not be saved by the works of the law. You cant miss it. No one could miss it. Yet, time and time again I see the illegalist claiming you said that. They willfully bear false witness against you. They have no regard for law. One thing for sure, its not out of any kind of love law {they claim they follow} that they bear this false witness.
Nope
Abe heard Gods voice and obeyed
GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.
Honest Abe heard Gods "voice" and so he kept His commandments
JOHN 10 [27] MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Also Gods sheep hear His “voice”.
DEUT. 27 [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God. [10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY THE VOICE of the Lord thy God, and DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.
DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU TO PERFORM, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Cant do a song and dance around above scripture. It is truly Gods 10 commandments
While it is today...if you hear His voice harden not your heart
Abe heard Gods voice and obeyed
GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.
Honest Abe heard Gods "voice" and so he kept His commandments
JOHN 10 [27] MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Also Gods sheep hear His “voice”.
DEUT. 27 [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God. [10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY THE VOICE of the Lord thy God, and DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.
DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU TO PERFORM, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Cant do a song and dance around above scripture. It is truly Gods 10 commandments
While it is today...if you hear His voice harden not your heart
Are you so distrustful of the grace of your salvation as to call another in the Messiah sneaky etc?. Do you doubt your walk with Jesus so much as to not be able to face learning from the Old Testament??
I do not follow any of the laws except for those under the two great laws of Love, the Commandments of Yahweh, God fit there quite well. You are denying the teachings of the Master, Himself, in favor of license.
Grace does not mean we run havoc through the rest of our way with the Lord while in this age ignoring the behavior He teaches.
Your continued reliance on license tells not only who you are, but what faith you have or do not have. I am not afraid to walk in grace while doing my utmost to be obedient, but you do not like it when I post this.
You say I am subtle and sneaky when saying we must obey Yahweh, God. Your attitude and your teaching is totally lacking faith in the salvation and grace of Jesus Christ, Yeshua. Do not teach me to disregard God's commandments; this is contrary to sound learning.
I do not follow any of the laws except for those under the two great laws of Love, the Commandments of Yahweh, God fit there quite well. You are denying the teachings of the Master, Himself, in favor of license.
Grace does not mean we run havoc through the rest of our way with the Lord while in this age ignoring the behavior He teaches.
Your continued reliance on license tells not only who you are, but what faith you have or do not have. I am not afraid to walk in grace while doing my utmost to be obedient, but you do not like it when I post this.
You say I am subtle and sneaky when saying we must obey Yahweh, God. Your attitude and your teaching is totally lacking faith in the salvation and grace of Jesus Christ, Yeshua. Do not teach me to disregard God's commandments; this is contrary to sound learning.
That's what I mean about subtle and sneaky.
Before you come back with your usual ignorance about teaching "disobedience" by not being under the law, is there any disobedience in abiding in Christ? BY somehow not looking to the law, but looking to Christ instead, can that cause disobedience? By not beholding sin, but beholding Christ, will we somehow be off our guard and forget to ask for forgiveness of something? Will we be in any danger by Abiding in Christ and not looking to the law to examine ourselves or increase our "wisdom"? Can Christ do in you greater things than you can by the law?
It kind of shows you where your faith is, doesn't it?
Before you come back with your usual ignorance about teaching "disobedience" by not being under the law, is there any disobedience in abiding in Christ? BY somehow not looking to the law, but looking to Christ instead, can that cause disobedience? By not beholding sin, but beholding Christ, will we somehow be off our guard and forget to ask for forgiveness of something? Will we be in any danger by Abiding in Christ and not looking to the law to examine ourselves or increase our "wisdom"? Can Christ do in you greater things than you can by the law?
It kind of shows you where your faith is, doesn't it?
Now anyone who is following the posts sees who is being subtle and sneaky.
If you were abiding in Christ as you claim, you would heed His teaching on the commandments.
If you were truthful you would not continually confuse the commandments of the Father with the litany of ceremonial laws, statutes and ordinances. This is what I call being coy. You are playing coy and coming back on my truthful post twisting any of the meaning contained.
I have posted that I am not under the law, but you choose to distort obeying the Father's commandments to be under the law.
Jesus Christ teaches you and all who love Him to obey the commandments of Yahweh, God. I have posted the Scritpures more than once, which you have ignored.
You have made this personal, I mean personal for you. If what you are trying to teach is from your theology, you had best learn to learn from the Master. His name to you is Jesus Christ, the same as Yeshua.
It is a crying shame that you are going to come back and say I look to the law and not to grace. It is equally a crying shame that you are going to come back saying the commandments of the Father are the law.
Even Paul said you do not belong to Paul for Paul did not suffer and die to give you the Gospel, the Good News, yet pretending to understand Paul so well, you ignore the teaching direct from the Master, and master here means Teacher, or Great Rabbi...........
If you were abiding in Christ as you claim, you would heed His teaching on the commandments.
If you were truthful you would not continually confuse the commandments of the Father with the litany of ceremonial laws, statutes and ordinances. This is what I call being coy. You are playing coy and coming back on my truthful post twisting any of the meaning contained.
I have posted that I am not under the law, but you choose to distort obeying the Father's commandments to be under the law.
Jesus Christ teaches you and all who love Him to obey the commandments of Yahweh, God. I have posted the Scritpures more than once, which you have ignored.
You have made this personal, I mean personal for you. If what you are trying to teach is from your theology, you had best learn to learn from the Master. His name to you is Jesus Christ, the same as Yeshua.
It is a crying shame that you are going to come back and say I look to the law and not to grace. It is equally a crying shame that you are going to come back saying the commandments of the Father are the law.
Even Paul said you do not belong to Paul for Paul did not suffer and die to give you the Gospel, the Good News, yet pretending to understand Paul so well, you ignore the teaching direct from the Master, and master here means Teacher, or Great Rabbi...........
No, we're saying you must keep the 4th commandment because you have little to no faith. We have faith and are therefore dead to law and alive in Christ in whom is no condemnation because he kept the law perfectly. You folks are hypocrites because you pretend to be law keepers. No man can keep the law perfectly except Christ.
E
What 10? The ten were given to Moses 400 and some odd year later.
Abraham was not found by works, he was found by faith, as paul said, if he was found by works he would have something to boast about.
You people trying to earn your salvation because you think you are righteous have to learn what true righteousness is. You evidently do not, because if you think you are righteous (enough to be saved), you would be in serious error..
Only one man met that requirement, and that was Christ. Thats why he took our death, We were already too guilty to ever be good enough to take it ourself!
Abraham was not found by works, he was found by faith, as paul said, if he was found by works he would have something to boast about.
You people trying to earn your salvation because you think you are righteous have to learn what true righteousness is. You evidently do not, because if you think you are righteous (enough to be saved), you would be in serious error..
Only one man met that requirement, and that was Christ. Thats why he took our death, We were already too guilty to ever be good enough to take it ourself!
E
why do you stick on this one? we should keep them all. (and there is way more than 10!)
thats not the issue, The issue is we can;t keep it good enough to ever save ourselves, or earn salvation. Thus salvation can never be dependant on how well we do it. because no matter how good we think we are. we would still be undeserving..
thats not the issue, The issue is we can;t keep it good enough to ever save ourselves, or earn salvation. Thus salvation can never be dependant on how well we do it. because no matter how good we think we are. we would still be undeserving..