study - Olivet Discourse

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doulos

Guest
The mystery of God is revealed and His kingdom is established at the 7th trumpet. We seem to agree on that.
No we are not in agreement. Revealed as you believe is not the same thig as finished which is what I believe. The mystery of God was revealed over 1900 years ago when John wrote the book of Revelation.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
In the original language the word translated as revelation is apokalupsis. Here is the definition per Strong’s;
apokalupsis
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
The mystery of God is not revealed at the last trump as you say, but instead finished as Scripture states.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished(G5055), as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
G5055
τελέω
teleō
tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.


Concerning Christ’s kingdom being established once again we are not in agreement Christ established His kingdom (millenium) here on earth back in the first century when He was crucified and resurrected, If He hadn’t John could not have been in Christ’s kindom while he was imprisoned on Patmos in the first century
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
All believers, yesterday, today or tomorrow are translated into Christ’s kingom when they are born again.
Col 1:12-13 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hathdelivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Hath, past tense you and I are already in Christ’s kingdom We don’t have to wait, it is right here, right now and has been for almost 2000 years.
1Co 15:24-26 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ will continue to reign until He has placed all enemies underfoot at which timeHe turns the kingdom over to His Father for ever and ever just as !Cor15 and Rev11:15 demonstrate..Forever and ever is not just the millenial reign. Remember the milenial reign ends when Christ has defeated His enemies at which time He turns the kingdom over to His Father (1Cor15;24-26) and that kingdom lasts forever and ever(Rev11:15).

But Jesus still has to defeat the beast and his kingdom.
Which occurs at the second coming when
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10-12 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 11:15-18 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The millenium ends at the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump of Rev, aat which time all are judeged goats to the left, believers to the right.
Mat 25:31-34 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Considering that Scripture positively proves your view to be in error on these points, don’t you think it would be wise to take a step a back and reexamine the view you hold and honestly evaluate what I have shown you in these posts and the links I have provided before you continue attempting to defend a doctrine that has been proven wrong on these points?

May God bless your studies!
PS Concerning the number 666 you might be suprised by what you find if you do a yahoo or google search on quran 666!
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Doulos,

Wow, you have presented some interesting ideas. Revealed in Revelation by John is fine but revealed as in actually having happened I don't buy. There are far too many things that are prophesied concerning the return of Christ, the Tribulation and the Millennium that just have not happened yet. I loved your earlier points about "tribulation" dealing mostly with Christians as they suffer tribulation for their faith and comparing that to wrath of God which is aimed at those He is displeased with. I'm on board with you there.

I am also on board potentially with the concept of His mystery being completed at the 7th trumpet. Mystery revealed by John but completed when Christ returns and everyone on earth sees him coming. But that isn't what you appear to be saying.

I have not checked out the links you provided yet as I am too busy with work but I will, I promise. But for now I see several really glaring holes that Preterits, such as you seem to be, always ignore:

1) There has been no period on earth since Christ or John's writing of Revelation that align with any of the trumpets or bowls or 6th seal. (I am fine with thinking the first 5 seals have been opened although we likely disagree as to when and what events they represented). We haven't seen "every island and mountain moved" We haven't seen a great mountain thrown into the sea. We haven't seen kings, rich and poor men running to the hills and hiding in caves crying out the "wrath of the Lamb is upon us and who can withstand?" - paraphrasing. We haven't seen 1/3 of the trees and grass burnt up or 1/3 of everything in the seas dead. We haven't seen a 200 million man army. We haven't seen Israel surrounded and a battle so great that it took the Israelis 7 months to bury the dead. EZEK 38-39. Etc. etc.

2) Christ has not returned. Therefore he has not set up His millennial kingdom. He did NOT stand on the Mt. of Olives and split the mountain allowing those in Jerusalem to flee. Zech 14. I should know I stood on the Mt. of Olives in 1981 and it was still intact. His kingdom was not established the first time he came and died on the cross. This is evident because we are told that He will live among us during the millennium and rule the nations with a rod of iron. We are taught that any nation (Egypt used as an example) that does not come up to Zion to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles each year will not see rain. Zech 14 We are told every nation will bow down and worship Jesus when he returns. We have not seen this.

3) We are told following Christ's return, the millennium will last 1,000 years and that Satan will be bound and not allowed to deceive the nations. Clearly the nations are still being deceived. Just in my lifetime the US has gone from a God fearing country that was blessed to a secular state where the President himself has declared that America is no longer a Christian nation. In the past 50 years God has been completely taken out of the schools and replaced with Evolution and God is not allowed anywhere on public property. This does not sound like Christ is ruling with an iron rod and that Satan has been bound. I look around and see the world a far more sinful place than it was the day I was born. I do not see things getting better but worse which is what you'd expect if the Lord hasn't come yet. The falling away is either continuing or hasn't happened yet.

4) We are taught that after the millennium the old heaven and earth will pass away and the new heaven and earth will be formed. This has not happened. The 1,000 years have been up for almost 1,000 years under your theory.

5) We are taught that the beast will set up his kingdom and declare himself God and that all must worship him and take his mark or cannot buy or sell. While you can draw a comparison to Nero, this is not Nero because Nero was before AD 70 and John was writing of future events in AD 95. Nero's reign was not world wide.

6) We are told that Israel will become a nation again which we have seen but we have not seen 2/3 of this new nation wiped out with the remaining 1/3 all turning to and accepting Jesus, Zech 13.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Let's face it guys. There is only one Order of Events that is true. All the other theories are wrong. I don't pretend to have all the answers, that's why I'm here to fill in the gaps. We have the Preterits view, which is where you guys seem to be and I'm sure there are variations within your view. Then we have the Pre-Trib Rapturist view, the mid-trib rapture view/pre wrath and the post trib view. Again, only one is right and it could be a combination of views that is right. Nobody knows and the best guide we have is the Bible.

I think it would be helpful to perhaps start a new thread where we can each lay out the future events as we see them without citing all the scripture. We can then ask questions and cite scripture as needed. I am finding that these posts get incredibly long the way we are doing it and I'm having a hard time understanding what you guys think the future holds.
 
G

GRA

Guest
Let's face it guys. There is only one Order of Events that is true. All the other theories are wrong. I don't pretend to have all the answers, that's why I'm here to fill in the gaps. We have the Preterits view, which is where you guys seem to be and I'm sure there are variations within your view. Then we have the Pre-Trib Rapturist view, the mid-trib rapture view/pre wrath and the post trib view. Again, only one is right and it could be a combination of views that is right. Nobody knows and the best guide we have is the Bible.

I think it would be helpful to perhaps start a new thread where we can each lay out the future events as we see them without citing all the scripture. We can then ask questions and cite scripture as needed. I am finding that these posts get incredibly long the way we are doing it and I'm having a hard time understanding what you guys think the future holds.
And, I have devoted a thread to it. Please participate in that one if you wish to discuss the Order of Events. ( <----- Click ) I believe that there is a lot that can be learned from not even trying to determine the time frame and just looking at the Order of Events. Please take the time to start at post #1 and read the entire thread ( at least the posts that are on topic ) -- also looking at the charts html page. ( you will have to go to post #25 and download it ) You just may find it VERY interesting - if you will "pay close attention" to the details...

However - if you are not willing to allow the thread owner / topic moderator / discussion leader maintain a meaningful discussion - on topic - then, by all means, please start another thread...

Two or three or five or ten people, all telling the others how wrong they are ( etc. etc. etc. ) -- is not having a discussion!

Having a discussion is not "turning off" - or worse, trampling - the author of the thread - as though he / she has nothing to offer!

Going into a thread just so you can "spew your stuff" all over the place - without even taking into consideration what the author intends with the thread - is paramount to "spitting in the author's face" -- and ought not to be done in any thread...

It is completely senseless for people to "hang around" in a thread and just "spew their stuff" ( off topic is even worse ) - outside of any real discussion or meaningful search for the truth.

Now - for "just a moment", I thought I was having a relatively decent conversation with PlainWord - who seemed to be sincere and respectable in the way he was going about participating... And then - suddenly - a disorderly "whirlwind" came along and carried off the whole conversation into every random direction...

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to insult or insinuate or etc. -- I am just "telling it like I see it"... ( all are welcome in the thread for meaningful discussion that is on topic )

Filling the thread up with "Well, YOU just don't know how to study the scriptures!" never really helps anything -- except, of course, to show everyone how arrogant you really are... ;)

Please take the time to read this post. ( <----- Click )

So -- how about we all settle down into a reasonable discussion about the Olivet Discourse ( because that is what this thread is about ) -- "with decency and in order"...

Let all things be done decently and in order. ~ 1 Corinthians 14:40

O.K. ?

:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
And, I have devoted a thread to it. Please participate in that one if you wish to discuss the Order of Events. ( <----- Click ) I believe that there is a lot that can be learned from not even trying to determine the time frame and just looking at the Order of Events. Please take the time to start at post #1 and read the entire thread ( at least the posts that are on topic ) -- also looking at the charts html page. ( you will have to go to post #25 and download it ) You just may find it VERY interesting - if you will "pay close attention" to the details...

However - if you are not willing to allow the thread owner / topic moderator / discussion leader maintain a meaningful discussion - on topic - then, by all means, please start another thread...

Two or three or five or ten people, all telling the others how wrong they are ( etc. etc. etc. ) -- is not having a discussion!

Having a discussion is not "turning off" - or worse, trampling - the author of the thread - as though he / she has nothing to offer!

Going into a thread just so you can "spew your stuff" all over the place - without even taking into consideration what the author intends with the thread - is paramount to "spitting in the author's face" -- and ought not to be done in any thread...

It is completely senseless for people to "hang around" in a thread and just "spew their stuff" ( off topic is even worse ) - outside of any real discussion or meaningful search for the truth.

Now - for "just a moment", I thought I was having a relatively decent conversation with PlainWord - who seemed to be sincere and respectable in the way he was going about participating... And then - suddenly - a disorderly "whirlwind" came along and carried off the whole conversation into every random direction...

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to insult or insinuate or etc. -- I am just "telling it like I see it"... ( all are welcome in the thread for meaningful discussion that is on topic )

Filling the thread up with "Well, YOU just don't know how to study the scriptures!" never really helps anything -- except, of course, to show everyone how arrogant you really are... ;)

Please take the time to read this post. ( <----- Click )

So -- how about we all settle down into a reasonable discussion about the Olivet Discourse ( because that is what this thread is about ) -- "with decency and in order"...

Let all things be done decently and in order. ~ 1 Corinthians 14:40

O.K. ?

:)
Sorry, didn't intend to trample on your thread. I contribute to several threads on subjects that interest me. I simply respond to those who respond to me without regard to what thread I happen to be in. But out of respect to you, I will try again to stay on topic on threads you have authored. Further, I will check out your other thread as you suggested.
 
G

GRA

Guest
Sorry, didn't intend to trample on your thread. I contribute to several threads on subjects that interest me. I simply respond to those who respond to me without regard to what thread I happen to be in. But out of respect to you, I will try again to stay on topic on threads you have authored. Further, I will check out your other thread as you suggested.
PlainWord -- I sincerely hope you understand that post #164 was directed "at the crowd" and not you specifically...

Please check out this thread -----> A quote is a quote is a quote... ( <----- Click )

Please take the time to read post #164 again with this in mind --- see if it comes across a bit differently...

:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
PlainWord -- I sincerely hope you understand that post #164 was directed "at the crowd" and not you specifically...

Please check out this thread -----> A quote is a quote is a quote... ( <----- Click )

Please take the time to read post #164 again with this in mind --- see if it comes across a bit differently...

:)
Thanks GRA,

Yes, it comes across differently, I appreciate you taking the time to explain. I generally address my response and quote them if I am speaking to only the person I am responding to. However, since this is a public blog I understand that others can and do read what is written so I welcome comments from everyone as long as they are respectful. You sir, are a gentleman so thank you!!
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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Does anyone have insight into where those being gathered go? Obviously to meet the Lord in the air, but then where?

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I don't see the elect going to heaven. It would not make sense. We get from Paul (1 Cor 15:52) that we will be changed (received glorified bodies) and that the dead in Christ will arise first (1 Thes 4:16-17). It is apparent that the dead in Christ and those saints who are alive and remain (during the Trib) will all meet together in the clouds and be transformed. But then what happens? What are the sequence of events next for the transformed saints?

It doesn't make sense to me for us all to return to heaven. Why bring the souls in heaven back to earth, resurrect their bodies and transform them, only to put them back in heaven? For those of us who see this event happening at the 7th trumpet of Rev 11, there are still plenty of events left to happen on earth before evil is defeated and the Lord is able to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

For me, I'm leaning towards the Lord placing us all somewhere east of the Mount of Olives in preparation for the Great Battle. Curious what other ideas are out there.
 
B

Bluecomet

Guest
Right before the tribulation, Jesus will step off of His throne and come down just above the earth. Everyone walking on earth that has there name in the book of life, Jesus will bring them into the air and give you a new body, and take you to Heaven with Him. While the tribulation is going on for 7 years, God will be dealing with His saints one at a time, rewarding them for the deeds they did while on earth.
 
B

Bluecomet

Guest
All prophecy has been fulfilled up to this point. The next prophecy that occurs will be when people start disappearing, that will be the harvest.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
All prophecy has been fulfilled up to this point. The next prophecy that occurs will be when people start disappearing, that will be the harvest.
Actually, the Lord comes at the 7th trumpet. The timing couldn't be clearer. What evidence do you have that we are taken to Heaven, regardless of timing?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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Brother GRA,

Do you see Matthew 24:35 and on all dealing with times towards the end of the Millennium Period? I am starting to see things that way.
 
G

GRA

Guest
Brother GRA,

Do you see Matthew 24:35 and on all dealing with times towards the end of the Millennium Period? I am starting to see things that way.
NOPE.

It is all connected with the Second Coming of Christ.

Matthew 24:35 is a general statement. It does not indicate that the "new heaven and earth" [prophetic] 'event' is included in the time-frame(s) of the Olivet Discourse.

:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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NOPE.

It is all connected with the Second Coming of Christ.

Matthew 24:35 is a general statement. It does not indicate that the "new heaven and earth" [prophetic] 'event' is included in the time-frame(s) of the Olivet Discourse.

:)
That is what I used to think too. But now I'm not so sure. I'm starting to see a clear break between verses 34-35. Let's put it up here to discuss:

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.

47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'

49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,

50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,

51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Play along with me for a moment and re-read this passage as if you thought there was a break. Up to verse 34 covers the Trib then from verse 35 on, covers the end of the Millennial age, Satan has been let loose to deceive.

This would mean those not knowing the "day of hour" passages would apply to final end times. The part about the days of Noah, everyone partying and getting married - that always bothered me. How can life be as usual during the Great Trib right up and through the 6th trumpet where 1/3 of the world is being killed? How can people be out working in the fields like it's another day at the park? How can Jesus surprise anyone after these 200 million creatures have killed a third of the earth by His coming? We might not know the day or hour but anyone with a Bible would know his return would be the next event.

I always attributed the one taken, one left as the Rapture. But if this new idea is correct, the one taken is the sinful man to the Great White Throne of judgment. The judgment of the unbeliever happens at the end of the millennium, not at the end of the tribulation. I get that the Lord will kill many of the unbelievers when he returns during the Trib and defeats his enemies, but that isn't judging them. The tares get pulled out from the wheat at the VERY end under this new scenario.

The Days of Noah were complete judgment days - the whole world was judged and condemned, save 8. The Trib is a partial judgment of the wicked, not a complete judgment. The wicked are not sent to hell yet, they are merely killed, or at least some are. It sure sounds like verse 35 on, the wicked are being pulled out and sentenced to hell, "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The Lord just kills, potentially, those that come against Israel and Jerusalem when he comes at the Trib. Zech 14:3 implies that the Lord is selective on who He attacks. Read on in Zech 14:

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


So clearly there are still disobedient people on earth immediately after the Trib when the Lord sets up His 1,000 year reign.
You like to tie like passages together. See 2 Peter 3:

7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

We see that the "Lord" comes as a thief in the night here at the final days of the old earth. Now Rev 20 makes sense.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

We have just the "beheaded" or potentially martyered of the Trib being resurrected at the end of the Trib period. We are not told all believers who have died previously are raised yet. Clearly the sinners are not raised until after. This ties with Jesus' comments about raising up at the last day 3 places in John 6:

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

This last day is really the VERY LAST DAY. This truth was taught in the days of Jesus because Martha knew concerning Lazarus without question. Turn to John 11:

23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

This has to be the VERY LAST DAY, not the day the Lord returns at the Trib. Now see John 12:
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
We know the judgment happens AFTER the millennium and the wicked stand before God at the Great White Throne. Let's look at Rev 20 again:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


If this is correct, the Rapture of the Tribulation will be a partial rapture of the martyred only to rule with the Lord. Jesus is gathering, "HIS ELECT." Elect or chosen. It appears that the "END OF THE AGE" is the end of this world!!

Back to Mat 24 again:

51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:

25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'

26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'

27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'

28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.


Mat 13:

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."


Mat 25:

30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

All these weeping and gnashing of teeth verse CLEARLY refer to final judgment. If the Lord was killing them as in the Trib, they wouldn't be weeping or gnashing, they would be just dead. These guys are weeping because they are going to hell.

Someone talk me off the ledge. I'm freaking out!!


 
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G

GRA

Guest
PlainWord - what do you think about the phrase 'end of the world' in this verse?

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ~ Hebrews 9:26

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

( "Don't freak out. Step back off of the ledge of 'Quick Superficial Interpretation'. Be careful of 'revelations' ( REF: here ) that have not been verified agaist ALL of scripture..." ;) )

:)
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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PlainWord - what do you think about the phrase 'end of the world' in this verse?

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ~ Hebrews 9:26

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

( "Don't freak out. Step back off of the ledge of 'Quick Superficial Interpretation'. Be careful of 'revelations' ( REF: here ) that have not been verified agaist ALL of scripture..." ;) )

:)
GRA,

I came back inside off the ledge, so no need to worry, ;). But, I'm still freaking out to some extent. This wasn't a quick interpretation. When I saw 2 Peter 3:10, I spent the next 3 days immersed in the Word trying to reconcile that passage with everything I had always believed. How could the heavens be passing away with the Rapture? I always believed in the Rapture but Peter seems to be saying that that when the Lord comes as a thief in the night, the heavens will pass away and the world will burn up. This doesn't happen until the very end, after the millennium.

I am now re-thinking (for the moment) that there is no Rapture of the Church as a separate event either before or during the Tribulation. I have been re-reading all the passages that I thought were "Rapture" passages, regardless of timing in the light that the Rapture happens after the Millennium, except for the martyrs. Right now this seems to be the only theory that works with all other scriptures.

The verse you cite is even further proof. I use the NKJV but it seems to work the same. Let's back it up a bit...

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

I'm not sure what this "SECOND" time is yet? Is it Christ coming for the millennium or the end of the age (World)?
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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I think I got it. Christ comes during the Time of Jacob's Troubles. This is the only time He comes. Because when He comes, He comes to set up His millennium kingdom. He then stays. It is God who comes at the end of the Age to judge all things. The word, "LORD" can be used for either Christ Jesus or God in the NT. Lord is almost always used for God in the OT.

Look at the key "rapture passage" again in this new light:

1 Thes 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (GOD), that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself (GOD) will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christwill rise first.

Do you see this? It is God who comes and raptures the dead in Christ. God comes at the end of the age/world.

Let's look at 1 Cor 15 again in this new light. It doesn't conflict. This passage doesn't say who is coming but thanks is given to God at the end. The Last trumpet is NOT the 7th trumpet. The last trumpet is THE LAST TRUMPET to ever blow on this old earth!!

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Now look at the other BIG Rapture verses 2 Thes 2:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Notice here it is called the "DAY OF CHRIST" not the "DAY OF THE LORD???" We are merely being "GATHERED" not "RAPTURED."

My GF actually gave me this last night and I was blown away. Actually, she gave me the clue and together we found it. Ever wonder what Jesus was saying here in Mat 24:28? That verse was a mystery to me for years. For years and years I had no clue, just a whole bunch of theories that didn't really work.

28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

That verse did not seem like it belonged and I never fully understood it until last night. But now I GOT IT!! What does this mean to you GRA or whoever?
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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GRA,

Jesus comes once. It is for the Battle of Armageddon. This is the only time he comes back and he comes to stay. You gave me this brother GRA in Heb 9 but verse 28.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Jesus does NOT come at the Last Trumpet. He comes on a white horse with his army, Rev 19-20. There is no "rapture" of the church, the way most consider it. The only time the living get to go to heaven, is at the end of the age/the old world.

"For it is appointed for man to die once." The only exception is at the very end of the world. There isn't another exception for a Tribulation era Rapture.

Therefore your chart is wrong. The Lord does not come at the 7th trumpet. He comes after the 6th bowl. He "gathers" us for battle, not to go to heaven. Therefore we are all on earth for all the seals, trumpets and bowls. I do believe this is correct. Please see if you can trip me up on this.
 
G

GRA

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GRA,

Jesus comes once. It is for the Battle of Armageddon. This is the only time he comes back and he comes to stay. You gave me this brother GRA in Heb 9 but verse 28.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Jesus does NOT come at the Last Trumpet. He comes on a white horse with his army, Rev 19-20. There is no "rapture" of the church, the way most consider it. The only time the living get to go to heaven, is at the end of the age/the old world.

"For it is appointed for man to die once." The only exception is at the very end of the world. There isn't another exception for a Tribulation era Rapture.

Therefore your chart is wrong. The Lord does not come at the 7th trumpet. He comes after the 6th bowl. He "gathers" us for battle, not to go to heaven. Therefore we are all on earth for all the seals, trumpets and bowls. I do believe this is correct. Please see if you can trip me up on this.
In all honesty -- I believe that your recent "epiphany" has caused you to be "carried about with every wind of doctrine" - or, at least - off in one particular direction that I believe is not according to what the bible says.

I do not want to "trip you up" -- I would much rather see you standing firmly on the scriptures - not allowing what you are uncertain about to undermine any part of the foundation of truth.

It is all too natural for us to "come up with anything" to "fill the gaps" that we are "so uncomfortable with" in our thought processes and reasoning. However, it is far better to "leave the gap open" and "accept it that way" until we can "properly" fill it with solid truth.

Be Careful.

:)