Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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I first started considering the concept of a physical, definable Sabbath day where I intentionally planned to do no work. Shortly after this decision, my wife and I moved and I was forced to take a job where I was required to work on the Sabbath. What to do?
Did God call me to move? Yes.
Did God give me that job? Yes.
Did He know that I was going to have to work on the Sabbath? Yes.
I worked that day as unto the Lord, trusting all of these things, and trusting that if the Sabbath was truly important to Him, He would eventually allow me to honor it.
3 months later He did that. 9 years after that, I haven't had to work on the Sabbath since. I've been humbly blessed by it. God's sovereignty is something He's been teaching me ALOT about lately, and I can see His hand in that whole process. I like to think that because I went through that process of working on the Sabbath I was able to trust Him a little more and to walk obediently with Him. I think that because I persevered and learned from Him, He has blessed me with a job where it isn't an issue.
Just my experience,
Matt
Did God call me to move? Yes.
Did God give me that job? Yes.
Did He know that I was going to have to work on the Sabbath? Yes.
I worked that day as unto the Lord, trusting all of these things, and trusting that if the Sabbath was truly important to Him, He would eventually allow me to honor it.
3 months later He did that. 9 years after that, I haven't had to work on the Sabbath since. I've been humbly blessed by it. God's sovereignty is something He's been teaching me ALOT about lately, and I can see His hand in that whole process. I like to think that because I went through that process of working on the Sabbath I was able to trust Him a little more and to walk obediently with Him. I think that because I persevered and learned from Him, He has blessed me with a job where it isn't an issue.
Just my experience,
Matt
I think a very important question, and its one John hints at here, is WHY are trying to follow the physical commands. Are we doing it for the sake of the law and to try and do it as best as we can, or are we doing it because God called us to, and I want to honor Him by doing what He says?
I think this echoes my thought. So again, the question is do we follow the law just for the sake of following it, or do we do it because God told us to do so, that there would be a blessing if we did, and that all the while we are trying to learn something much greater than the physical action?
I can say confidently that every single physical command I read and keep in the Torah conveys a much deeper spiritual understanding, and a much greater understanding and love for my God.
Off to work!
Matt
I think this echoes my thought. So again, the question is do we follow the law just for the sake of following it, or do we do it because God told us to do so, that there would be a blessing if we did, and that all the while we are trying to learn something much greater than the physical action?
I can say confidently that every single physical command I read and keep in the Torah conveys a much deeper spiritual understanding, and a much greater understanding and love for my God.
Off to work!
Matt
They were COMMANDMENTS written on tablets of STONE - expressions of His immutable, unchangeable CHARACTER and HOLINESS.
Those tablets were The Law - the 10 commandments given through Moses at Sinai - that Covenant was a conditional covenant.
that covenant was made only with one nation, Israel.
that covenant included blessing and curses - it was a CONDITIONAL COVENANT.
the blessings were conditional on Israel keeping the commandments.
Deuteronomy 28-29 clearly shows the conditional nature of the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant).
Jeremiah prophesied the New Covenant would eventually replace the Old Covenant BECAUSE Israel did not keep their end of the covenant.
......
Exodus 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Deuteronomy 4:13
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
okay? do we agree that the Old Covenant, from Sinai was:
- between God and Israel only.
- it was conditional
- Israel did not keep the covenant
- God had promised a NEW covenant, which would NOT be like the Old Covenant.
- the New Covenant would supercede and abolish the Old Covenant
- the New Covenant was based on better promises
- the New Covenant would do what the Old Covenant could never do
HOW MANY COVENANTS IS GOD HONORING TODAY?
HOW MANY COVENANTS ARE IN PLACE TODAY?
Hebrews 8:6-9
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord...."
13 In that he saith, "A new covenant," he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 10:8-10
8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law";
9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
......
He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
is the First (Old) Covenant existent?
is God in Covenant with anyone according to the Old Covenant?
HOW MANY COVENANTS IS GOD UPHOLDING TODAY?
Jesus took His disciples to a Mountain and gave a Sermon where He gave 10 of His own commandments.
These commandments are based on the same principles or "spirit" of the Old Covenant 10 commandments.
But, they are not identical - they are new.
you will note He did not teach Sinai sabbath.
Jesus was actually superseding the Old Covenant - not commanding them to return them to a better understanding/better way to keep the Old Covenant!
His Covenant is NEW.
Jesus said He came to fulfill The Law - to finish or conclude it - replacing The Old Covenant Laws with the New Covenant Promise, just as God had said!
it's A GOOD THING HE DID THIS!
the moral requirements are the same - God is the same, but His Covenants have changed.
why is this NOT a good thing.
The word "fulfill" means to bring to its proper conclusion. He concluded the Old Covenant by:
13 In that he saith, "A new covenant," he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
just as Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of His coming, He fulfilled the requirements of the Old Covenant...He also called down those covenant curses upon apostate Jerusalem.
Jesus fulfilled the Law over His entire ministry by walking in perfection and by becoming the sacrifice of which the Law was THE SHADOW, or prophecy about HIM.
i think ppl get confused because they don't understand that the transition between the Two Covenants took 40 years - from 30AD when john the baptist and Jesus announced the New Covenant - until the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.
Biblical Judaism can not be practiced anymore!!
that was The Lord's doing!
Hebrews 8:13 says that the Old Covenant was waxing old and it was about to vanish away.
and so came the destruction of the temple and the city and the apostates by the Romans (the prince Titus).
Jesus had decreed this destruction on the jews who had refused to accept the New Covenant.
during Jesus' ministry, the two covenants existed along side one another - in 3 1/2 years Jesus had fully inaugurated the New Covenant, and God mercifully allowed them until 70AD for the Old Covenant to fully expire (imo).
we know for certain long after the Day of Pentecost the Lord through His Apsotles was still pleading with the nation of Israel to accept the gospel....the New Covenant.
no. that Covenant is over.
His Moral law never changes - His Covenants and commandments did.
Those tablets were The Law - the 10 commandments given through Moses at Sinai - that Covenant was a conditional covenant.
that covenant was made only with one nation, Israel.
that covenant included blessing and curses - it was a CONDITIONAL COVENANT.
the blessings were conditional on Israel keeping the commandments.
Deuteronomy 28-29 clearly shows the conditional nature of the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant).
Jeremiah prophesied the New Covenant would eventually replace the Old Covenant BECAUSE Israel did not keep their end of the covenant.
......
Exodus 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Deuteronomy 4:13
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
okay? do we agree that the Old Covenant, from Sinai was:
- between God and Israel only.
- it was conditional
- Israel did not keep the covenant
- God had promised a NEW covenant, which would NOT be like the Old Covenant.
- the New Covenant would supercede and abolish the Old Covenant
- the New Covenant was based on better promises
- the New Covenant would do what the Old Covenant could never do
HOW MANY COVENANTS IS GOD HONORING TODAY?
HOW MANY COVENANTS ARE IN PLACE TODAY?
Hebrews 8:6-9
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord...."
13 In that he saith, "A new covenant," he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 10:8-10
8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law";
9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
......
He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
is the First (Old) Covenant existent?
is God in Covenant with anyone according to the Old Covenant?
HOW MANY COVENANTS IS GOD UPHOLDING TODAY?
Jesus took His disciples to a Mountain and gave a Sermon where He gave 10 of His own commandments.
These commandments are based on the same principles or "spirit" of the Old Covenant 10 commandments.
But, they are not identical - they are new.
you will note He did not teach Sinai sabbath.
Jesus was actually superseding the Old Covenant - not commanding them to return them to a better understanding/better way to keep the Old Covenant!
His Covenant is NEW.
Jesus said He came to fulfill The Law - to finish or conclude it - replacing The Old Covenant Laws with the New Covenant Promise, just as God had said!
it's A GOOD THING HE DID THIS!
the moral requirements are the same - God is the same, but His Covenants have changed.
why is this NOT a good thing.
The word "fulfill" means to bring to its proper conclusion. He concluded the Old Covenant by:
13 In that he saith, "A new covenant," he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
just as Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of His coming, He fulfilled the requirements of the Old Covenant...He also called down those covenant curses upon apostate Jerusalem.
Jesus fulfilled the Law over His entire ministry by walking in perfection and by becoming the sacrifice of which the Law was THE SHADOW, or prophecy about HIM.
i think ppl get confused because they don't understand that the transition between the Two Covenants took 40 years - from 30AD when john the baptist and Jesus announced the New Covenant - until the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.
Biblical Judaism can not be practiced anymore!!
that was The Lord's doing!
Hebrews 8:13 says that the Old Covenant was waxing old and it was about to vanish away.
and so came the destruction of the temple and the city and the apostates by the Romans (the prince Titus).
Jesus had decreed this destruction on the jews who had refused to accept the New Covenant.
during Jesus' ministry, the two covenants existed along side one another - in 3 1/2 years Jesus had fully inaugurated the New Covenant, and God mercifully allowed them until 70AD for the Old Covenant to fully expire (imo).
we know for certain long after the Day of Pentecost the Lord through His Apsotles was still pleading with the nation of Israel to accept the gospel....the New Covenant.
no. that Covenant is over.
His Moral law never changes - His Covenants and commandments did.
We follow the Law because we love God and seek to please God.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Another and more basic reason is simply because He says to...
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Another and more basic reason is simply because He says to...
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Yeah you continually misrepresent the issue.
The spirit of the law of Moses (that includes the 10 commandments) is loving one's neighbor as one's self. If one does that he has fulfilled the righteousness required by the letter of the law. You are more devoted to the 10 commandments than you are to the author of those commandments. You're simply trying to establish your own righteousness through your own efforts.
The spirit of the law of Moses (that includes the 10 commandments) is loving one's neighbor as one's self. If one does that he has fulfilled the righteousness required by the letter of the law. You are more devoted to the 10 commandments than you are to the author of those commandments. You're simply trying to establish your own righteousness through your own efforts.
E
I have told you over and over, YES. Do I keep it perfectly? No. Do you?
What pharisee? You posted the very passage which showed it. And you now want to call me a pharisee??
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Six days you shall labor and do all your work, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. [SUP]17 [/SUP]It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’”
Don't ya see? COOK AND BOIL ALL YOU NEED ON FRIDAY so you MAY EAT ON SATERDAY!
This is speaking of the feast of unleavened bread. NOT THE SABAATH. also notice. You shall do no work on the FIRST DAY or the LAST DAY during this week. this is a one time a year event!
So you don;t go to stores? You don't drive period?? You don't go to church, where you make the people at your church work?
I want to hear ALL OF IT!
They have been asked by myself and others numerous times.
Thats what you get when you selectively read what people write to you and do not pay attention to what it is said.
Yes I have seen this, And thanks. Mistate and misread? What have I mistated and misread??
Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
John 12:28
Father, glorify your name!" Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again."
Ephesians 1
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5heb predestined us for adoption to sonshipc through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
And you are under a New Covenant?
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
First of all, notice where the fault lay:
For finding fault with them
The fault was not with the covenant, it was with the people.
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Now this is a direct quote from...
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
And the word for Law in verse 33 is...
H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
So it is the writing of the Torah in our hearts and minds.
I think you misunderstand the concept of Covenant, which is an agreement or contract, compared to Law. The Law of God is the terms and conditions of the Covenant. The Covenant changed, the terms and conditions did not. This is why Christ made statements such as...
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
and...
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Now Christ was the I AM, the LORD, the Eternal of the O.T. He is the one who wrote the Ten Commandments...
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, ...
And there follows the Ten Commandments.
Now do you think this was all a mistake and needed changed? Did Christ slap His forehead and say, "I shouldn't have given these people this terrible Law, I made a mistake"?
Help me out here, is this really what happened?
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
First of all, notice where the fault lay:
For finding fault with them
The fault was not with the covenant, it was with the people.
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Now this is a direct quote from...
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
And the word for Law in verse 33 is...
H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
So it is the writing of the Torah in our hearts and minds.
I think you misunderstand the concept of Covenant, which is an agreement or contract, compared to Law. The Law of God is the terms and conditions of the Covenant. The Covenant changed, the terms and conditions did not. This is why Christ made statements such as...
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
and...
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Now Christ was the I AM, the LORD, the Eternal of the O.T. He is the one who wrote the Ten Commandments...
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, ...
And there follows the Ten Commandments.
Now do you think this was all a mistake and needed changed? Did Christ slap His forehead and say, "I shouldn't have given these people this terrible Law, I made a mistake"?
Help me out here, is this really what happened?
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