Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[eternally-gratefull]

When did He shed His body? I thought He shed His blood and His body was broken for us. Hmmm, whatever book you are reading from is different than mine. Hey, that is beginning to explain a lot.

wow. A typo..

So your going to judge a typo. and miss the whole point. You sound more and more like a pharisee every post you make. Your just like them..

Dude you have lost it. Any light you may have, or any credibility you may have you are losing every day.

Maybe you better stop while some people still agree with you on things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What has that to do with taking scripture out of context? Which is what you did.

some people will not admit they made a mistake now matter how small it is, Their pride is too hi!

 

[SarahM777]

I'm asking you to show me how I took these scriptures out of context. show me the correct explanation of these scriptures and how it is just fine and dandy to put an Xmas tree in your house and worship God by facing East at the rising of the sun. Show me the scriptures.

Jeremiah 10

10 Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel.
2 This is what the Lord says:
“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”

6 No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
7 Who should not fear you,
King of the nations?
This is your due.
Among all the wise leaders of the nations
and in all their kingdoms,
there is no one like you.

8 They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.
9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.
10 But the Lord is the true God;
he is the living God, the eternal King.
When he is angry, the earth trembles;
the nations cannot endure his wrath.

11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”[a]
12 But God made the earth by his power;
he founded the world by his wisdom
and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
13 When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar;
he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth.
He sends lightning with the rain
and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

14 Everyone is senseless and without knowledge;
every goldsmith is shamed by his idols.
The images he makes are a fraud;
they have no breath in them.
15 They are worthless, the objects of mockery;
when their judgment comes, they will perish.
16 He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
for he is the Maker of all things,
including Israel, the people of his inheritance—
the Lord Almighty is his name.

Within the context of the passage they were making idols out of the trees. The process of making an idol is to cut the tree,shape it,and then adorn it,just like a statue. He is not talking about decorating a tree.


Ezekiel 8

[h=3]Idolatry in the Temple[/h]8 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign Lord came on me there. 2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man.[a] From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal. 3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood. 4 And there before me was the glory of the God of Israel, as in the vision I had seen in the plain.
5 Then he said to me, “Son of man, look toward the north.” So I looked, and in the entrance north of the gate of the altar I saw this idol of jealousy.
6 And he said to me, “Son of man, do you see what they are doing—the utterly detestable things the Israelites are doing here, things that will drive me far from my sanctuary? But you will see things that are even more detestable.”
7 Then he brought me to the entrance to the court. I looked, and I saw a hole in the wall. 8 He said to me, “Son of man, now dig into the wall.” So I dug into the wall and saw a doorway there.
9 And he said to me, “Go in and see the wicked and detestable things they are doing here.” 10 So I went in and looked, and I saw portrayed all over the walls all kinds of crawling things and unclean animals and all the idols of Israel. 11 In front of them stood seventy elders of Israel, and Jaazaniah son of Shaphan was standing among them. Each had a censer in his hand, and a fragrant cloud of incense was rising.
12 He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, ‘The Lord does not see us; the Lord has forsaken the land.’” 13 Again, he said, “You will see them doing things that are even more detestable.”
14 Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and I saw women sitting there, mourning the god Tammuz. 15 He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? You will see things that are even more detestable than this.”
16 He then brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord, and there at the entrance to the temple, between the portico and the altar, were about twenty-five men. With their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east, they were bowing down to the sun in the east.
17 He said to me, “Have you seen this, son of man? Is it a trivial matter for the people of Judah to do the detestable things they are doing here? Must they also fill the land with violence and continually arouse my anger? Look at them putting the branch to their nose! 18 Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them.”


​

All these things they were doing it AT AND IN THE TEMPLE. They were worshipping IDOLS at the TEMPLE

It's not talking about going to church at sunrise on the day that the Lord rose from the dead at sunrise. Your reading into it and adding things that are NOT there.

 

[unclefester]

Hi RedTent Recognizing that we cannot live up to the laws perfect demand (not to sin) in no way translates into meaning that we don't care about the law. On the contrary, if it weren't for the law, we would not know sin ... and our desperate need for salvation from it's penalty for breaking it ...i.e... death. So yes, the law is good in that it makes us aware of our dreadful condition. But breaking even one attribute of the law means we have fallen short of God's mark. The law is good ... but Jesus is better, best, and our only hope. If as you say ... the law kills those who do not have Christ, let's not focus on that which destroys ... but rather on Him who redeems us. We are powerless in this flesh to do anything good in God's eye's without Christ anyways. I'm certain we all care about the law and trying our best to please God. But God tells us that our only way of doing that is through Him in Jesus Christ. Jesus first. Everything else is secondary ... and powerless to save us. Love your paintings BTW

Well, maybe it means since we cannot keep it perfectly, we should not even try.

Or .... maybe it means since we cannot keep it perfectly, we should believe and trust that the only One Who did ... and died in our deserved place was a sufficient sacrifice for our sins ? It's called being declared righteous by faith in Christ. NONE were declared righteous by works of the law in either the old or new testament. And neither will you nor any of your likeminded proponents be either. You are light years removed from the gospel. Go to the foot of the cross John. And remain there until your eyes are opened.

 

[Angela53510]

Straw Man - A straw man or straw person, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

Straw man on CC - A Judiaser who claims that someone who believes in grace is automatically going to go out and commit sin
because there is no reason not to. They constantly knock down this straw man, claiming people who do not keep the law and are saved by grace HAVE TO BE "sinners run amok!"

Truth - Anyone who has been saved by the grace of God is more grateful than one who is forced to keep the law and lives under
the burden of never knowing if they have been good enough for God. Christians who live by grace obey God and his commands under the New Covenant, with joy, grateful for a living and loving Saviour who has saved them by the grace of God, not by their own works.

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP]even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— [SUP]6 [/SUP]and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [SUP]7 [/SUP]so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." Eph. 2:4-6

 

[KohenMatt]

You are doing it because you don't know any better. You've done the best you can with your own understanding. You've fallen woefully short and now you are stuck, in the pit of your own understanding.

I was in that class with you. But for some reason the Lord caused me to stop looking to myself and look to Him instead.




You don't keep Torah. You have never kept Torah. Torah wasn't designed for you to make yourself pleasing to God.

Torah was designed to show you that you aren't God.

Or maybe that's just for Christians...

Maybe in Judaism and Judaism lite the goal is to keep as much of the law as you can and hope God will be gracious to you for the rest.

This is my one question for the lawyers here who profess Christ as their savior. Can you just accept half of Gods Grace and continue in the yoke of bondage at the same time thinking that whatever bases you don't have covered Grace will cover for you?

I'm really trying to understand how someone could experience the Power of salvation and then go back to the misery of defeat. The only thing I can think of is it must have something to do with the Slavery mentality, the Prison mentality. If you've been in Prison your whole life youre used to it. Its comfortable, its what you know. When people tell you that you don't have to be in there anymore it doesn't make any sense. Why would you want to leave the prison where you are comfortable and go outside where all the rules are different and you have to rely on someone other than yourself? Well you wouldn't leave what you are comfortable with unless you were caused to.

If someone showed you the prison you are in, showed you that you couldn't get out by yourself and then broke you free from that prison, that would be something. That would be worth telling other prisoners about.

But some of the prisoners like it there and they argue that we aren't supposed to leave prison. God made the prison so we must always stay in it, they say. You are wrong, they say, come back to prison with us...

God made that prison for transgressors. Those that wouldn't accept His Grace and Mercy and live in Him. Not everyone knows that.

If you're addressing any of this to me specifically, or putting me in the category of people you're talking about, you've completely missed what I believe and where I'm coming from.

If you're not addressing me specifically in this, I would agree with most of what you said.

Blessings,
Matt

 

[RedTent]

There is a chasm happening in our churches as we see in this thread. It is caused by the findings of archeology about the history and culture of when our bible was written. There is understanding of the roots of our bible that was lost in the thousands of years that separate us. We have a professor with a Hebrew and Greek language background in our town giving classes on Wednesday evening. Our very traditional Nazarene Church has a Sunday School class giving ancient bible history based on archeology.

Zone explains best where our churches have been. She even lies about me (you never mention Christ) in order to prove her point, but her point is really the same point that the people of Constantine's day had. It was that Christ created a new religion that cancelled out Judaism. The history of our church from after the first hundred years after Christ has pointed to this way of reading the New Testament. In order to read it this way, we have to say that many things in the OT was done away with. These people who have discovered the early culture and language meanings are reading scripture with the idea that God is eternal, the bible reflects that, every passage is truth. That changes some of the interpretation of Paul that has been held for centuries. Churches have taught that God changed His mind and principles through Christ.

It is found that Christ came to fulfill and complete what was with us from the beginning of time. That is a turning around of how we have seen it. Before the fulfilled meant it replaced and wiped out. The new way is to understand the sacrificial system as a shadow of Christ. A shadow is an outline, reflection, of something real. If you only saw the shadow of a house you would know something about the house, but when the house and the shadow came into view, you would still see the shadow. Christ in the flesh is like the actual house.

The new way to study bible is to start with Genesis, and read it from the way the Hebrews understood it. I said this once, and Zone is still having tantrums. Then take it to the New Testament, especially Revelations, and see how Christ built on these roots and how Christ changed things. The book of Hebrews does this, and if you read that book from the mind set of the Hebrew person, steeped in OT knowledge of God instead of as a 2013 person only steeped in Christ, it gives a different perspective on the book. It was how it was written, to show the growth in Christ. When we see the growth only and deny all God the Father brings to the table, we don't see the entire thing.

I am sure that God is overseeing this. For the world to accept Christ, the world couldn't be encumbered with how the Jews worshipped God. Christ isn't circumcision, Christ has to radiate from the heart. Gentiles could understand Christ, but not all about ways of both Christ and God the Father. God had to let people separate them and call it "those awful Jews" sort of thing. God let the Jews be blinded to Christ as He fulfilled to help us with that. God gave Paul words that they could misinterpret easily to back that up, and the world over had Christians. It is just now reversing to paganism.

Now, the gospel message has reached all God's people from Africa to Siberia. Now God is asking His family to listen, not only to His Son but to Him. Understand the NT, not as opposed to God the Father, but as how Christ took His principles that He taught and gave us material to grow on. We are to learn what God has for us in scripture. We have been saying the NT is not only growth, but a destroyer. That is not so. We are to grow and see that.

 

[Grandpa]

If you're addressing any of this to me specifically, or putting me in the category of people you're talking about, you've completely missed what I believe and where I'm coming from.

If you're not addressing me specifically in this, I would agree with most of what you said.

Blessings,
Matt

Yes, I am addressing you specifically.

I am also including the others in this thread that don't understand Christianity and desire to go back to the Law.

I haven't missed what you believe. You believe in keeping the commandments by your own power. You believe in the old mosaic covenant, without the animal sacrifices.

So you have half accepted Christ and half stay in the yoke of bondage. That's not really Christianity. That's still bondage. If you're half in bondage you're still in bondage.

I think its great that you want to agree. But I'm not going to agree with you all the way back into bondage. You're either ready to come out of her or you're not. I don't think you're ready but that's between you and God.

 

[Shiloah]

Faithful to our First Love by "hearing and doing".

That's certainly how the carnal mind thinks.

How is it that priests could work on the sabbath and be held blameless?

Or the disciples could break the sabbath (according to the letter) and be held blameless?

Or David could eat the showbread from the sanctuary (that only priests were allowed to eat on the sabbath), and be held blameless?

Yes, I am addressing you specifically.

I am also including the others in this thread that don't understand Christianity and desire to go back to the Law.

I haven't missed what you believe. You believe in keeping the commandments by your own power. You believe in the old mosaic covenant, without the animal sacrifices.

So you have half accepted Christ and half stay in the yoke of bondage. That's not really Christianity. That's still bondage. If you're half in bondage you're still in bondage.

I think its great that you want to agree. But I'm not going to agree with you all the way back into bondage. You're either ready to come out of her or you're not. I don't think you're ready but that's between you and God.

Well I'm addressing you specifically. lol. And I say you have entirely misunderstood what he's saying or you wouldn't think he's in bondage. I've been a Christian all my life and have probably grown up with the same teachings you have, and everything he's said makes perfect sense to me. So which one of us is right?

I certainly don't believe we can do anything to achieve salvation other than accepting Christ who saves us. I do; however, love the law because it was given to me by God to tell me what sin is. For the hundred millionth time, Christ TOLD me that if I love Him, I will keep HIS commandments. It's phenomenal you don't understand that now, because of the grace of Jesus Christ, we are ABLE to keep His commandments, of which He asked us to. Wow. Doing what He asked me to do puts me in bondage? Well give me that bondage then. You take your freedom to NOT do as He asked.

P.S. Sorry about all the quotes. I've no idea how they all got in here. I was addressing the last one.

P.S.S. The one on top I really like. lol.

 

[Grandpa]

There is a chasm happening in our churches as we see in this thread. It is caused by the findings of archeology about the history and culture of when our bible was written. There is understanding of the roots of our bible that was lost in the thousands of years that separate us. We have a professor with a Hebrew and Greek language background in our town giving classes on Wednesday evening. Our very traditional Nazarene Church has a Sunday School class giving ancient bible history based on archeology.

Zone explains best where our churches have been. She even lies about me (you never mention Christ) in order to prove her point, but her point is really the same point that the people of Constantine's day had. It was that Christ created a new religion that cancelled out Judaism. The history of our church from after the first hundred years after Christ has pointed to this way of reading the New Testament. In order to read it this way, we have to say that many things in the OT was done away with. These people who have discovered the early culture and language meanings are reading scripture with the idea that God is eternal, the bible reflects that, every passage is truth. That changes some of the interpretation of Paul that has been held for centuries. Churches have taught that God changed His mind and principles through Christ.

It is found that Christ came to fulfill and complete what was with us from the beginning of time. That is a turning around of how we have seen it. Before the fulfilled meant it replaced and wiped out. The new way is to understand the sacrificial system as a shadow of Christ. A shadow is an outline, reflection, of something real. If you only saw the shadow of a house you would know something about the house, but when the house and the shadow came into view, you would still see the shadow. Christ in the flesh is like the actual house.

The new way to study bible is to start with Genesis, and read it from the way the Hebrews understood it. I said this once, and Zone is still having tantrums. Then take it to the New Testament, especially Revelations, and see how Christ built on these roots and how Christ changed things. The book of Hebrews does this, and if you read that book from the mind set of the Hebrew person, steeped in OT knowledge of God instead of as a 2013 person only steeped in Christ, it gives a different perspective on the book. It was how it was written, to show the growth in Christ. When we see the growth only and deny all God the Father brings to the table, we don't see the entire thing.

I am sure that God is overseeing this. For the world to accept Christ, the world couldn't be encumbered with how the Jews worshipped God. Christ isn't circumcision, Christ has to radiate from the heart. Gentiles could understand Christ, but not all about ways of both Christ and God the Father. God had to let people separate them and call it "those awful Jews" sort of thing. God let the Jews be blinded to Christ as He fulfilled to help us with that. God gave Paul words that they could misinterpret easily to back that up, and the world over had Christians. It is just now reversing to paganism.

Now, the gospel message has reached all God's people from Africa to Siberia. Now God is asking His family to listen, not only to His Son but to Him. Understand the NT, not as opposed to God the Father, but as how Christ took His principles that He taught and gave us material to grow on. We are to learn what God has for us in scripture. We have been saying the NT is not only growth, but a destroyer. That is not so. We are to grow and see that.

God saved His people and brought them out of slavery by Grace. They were baptized (red sea) and given provision from God (manna).

God's people rejected His Grace. They murmured against Him and His Provision and wished to be back in captivity. They were given the Law by Moses for this transgression.

Its the same today but much more obvious to Gods People. You were born into slavery. You were born under Law. We all were. When we are saved by Grace we are no longer under the Law. We are under Grace, the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

If you've been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ and decide that you love the old way of the law you didn't understand what the schoolmaster was teaching you. You didn't understand that Grace is what has replaced that old way.

Romans 9:30-33
[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[RedTent]

Gramdpa. you are always talking about "going back to the law". That phrase isn't in the bible and I don't see anything there that relates to that. Would you explain what you mean by that?

I would like to give some of the thoughts I have that it brings up. First, God is in the Torah (first 5 books of the bible) and some call it the law because it gives instructions on Godly principles there. I think it is fundamental so our world operates through what it teaches. If you say we shouldn't listen to those principles, I object.

If you mean that people used to be holy enough to achieve atonement through their works, and you don't want to go back to that, then I also object because it isn't biblical that God ever gave humans that power to make themselves holy. It was always through Christ's blood. Christ is eternal God so even a reflection of that like they had was powerful, it had more power when He came. I don't see how we could make our world go back to a time before Christ was here, don't think we can go back in time. Even if we could, Christ was there.

If you mean that you don't want to think we can be saved through the idea we can perfectly obey the law, then that has never been so, never can be so, we can't go "back" to something that has never been.

If you mean that God doesn't want us to try our best to live by His paths as the law explains them, I also object. I think God wants us to do our best to follow Him.

 

[unclefester]

There is a chasm happening in our churches as we see in this thread. It is caused by the findings of archeology about the history and culture of when our bible was written. There is understanding of the roots of our bible that was lost in the thousands of years that separate us. We have a professor with a Hebrew and Greek language background in our town giving classes on Wednesday evening. Our very traditional Nazarene Church has a Sunday School class giving ancient bible history based on archeology.

Zone explains best where our churches have been. She even lies about me (you never mention Christ) in order to prove her point, but her point is really the same point that the people of Constantine's day had. It was that Christ created a new religion that cancelled out Judaism. The history of our church from after the first hundred years after Christ has pointed to this way of reading the New Testament. In order to read it this way, we have to say that many things in the OT was done away with. These people who have discovered the early culture and language meanings are reading scripture with the idea that God is eternal, the bible reflects that, every passage is truth. That changes some of the interpretation of Paul that has been held for centuries. Churches have taught that God changed His mind and principles through Christ.

It is found that Christ came to fulfill and complete what was with us from the beginning of time. That is a turning around of how we have seen it. Before the fulfilled meant it replaced and wiped out. The new way is to understand the sacrificial system as a shadow of Christ. A shadow is an outline, reflection, of something real. If you only saw the shadow of a house you would know something about the house, but when the house and the shadow came into view, you would still see the shadow. Christ in the flesh is like the actual house.

The new way to study bible is to start with Genesis, and read it from the way the Hebrews understood it. I said this once, and Zone is still having tantrums. Then take it to the New Testament, especially Revelations, and see how Christ built on these roots and how Christ changed things. The book of Hebrews does this, and if you read that book from the mind set of the Hebrew person, steeped in OT knowledge of God instead of as a 2013 person only steeped in Christ, it gives a different perspective on the book. It was how it was written, to show the growth in Christ. When we see the growth only and deny all God the Father brings to the table, we don't see the entire thing.

I am sure that God is overseeing this. For the world to accept Christ, the world couldn't be encumbered with how the Jews worshipped God. Christ isn't circumcision, Christ has to radiate from the heart. Gentiles could understand Christ, but not all about ways of both Christ and God the Father. God had to let people separate them and call it "those awful Jews" sort of thing. God let the Jews be blinded to Christ as He fulfilled to help us with that. God gave Paul words that they could misinterpret easily to back that up, and the world over had Christians. It is just now reversing to paganism.

Now, the gospel message has reached all God's people from Africa to Siberia. Now God is asking His family to listen, not only to His Son but to Him. Understand the NT, not as opposed to God the Father, but as how Christ took His principles that He taught and gave us material to grow on. We are to learn what God has for us in scripture. We have been saying the NT is not only growth, but a destroyer. That is not so. We are to grow and see that.

JESUS IS THE ENTIRE THING ! JESUS IS THE ONLY THING !

RedTent ... I'm genuinely concerned for you. This latest post of yours is nothing short of a disaster and an abomination. I'm out.

 

[Shiloah]

JESUS IS THE ENTIRE THING ! JESUS IS THE ONLY THING !

RedTent ... I'm genuinely concerned for you. This latest post of yours is nothing short of a disaster and an abomination. I'm out.

She knows this, I mean the part about everything in scriptures being about Jesus, both in the OT and the New.

 

[Grandpa]

Well I'm addressing you specifically. lol. And I say you have entirely misunderstood what he's saying or you wouldn't think he's in bondage. I've been a Christian all my life and have probably grown up with the same teachings you have, and everything he's said makes perfect sense to me. So which one of us is right?

I certainly don't believe we can do anything to achieve salvation other than accepting Christ who saves us. I do; however, love the law because it was given to me by God to tell me what sin is. For the hundred millionth time, Christ TOLD me that if I love Him, I will keep HIS commandments. It's phenomenal you don't understand that now, because of the grace of Jesus Christ, we are ABLE to keep His commandments, of which He asked us to. Wow. Doing what He asked me to do puts me in bondage? Well give me that bondage then. You take your freedom to NOT do as He asked.

P.S. Sorry about all the quotes. I've no idea how they all got in here. I was addressing the last one.

P.S.S. The one on top I really like. lol.

You've been a Christian your whole life and you still don't get it. Probably because not many teach it or understand it.

You don't believe you need to do anything for salvation but accept Christ? Accept Him for what? Perhaps we should start at the beginning...

I thought it was all about keeping the Law too, I thought that was the way to pleasing Him. But I was wrong, as you are.

You can't do what He has asked. Sorry to break it to you. If you could you wouldn't need Him to begin with.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

By the way, He doesn't ask us to. He commands us to. Keep the Law. Keep it perfectly. Or die in your sins.

There is only one way out. Its not by pretending that you keep His Perfect Law. Its by coming to Him and asking Him to do what you can't do. Make you perfect before God. Present you without spot.

You don't get that by keeping commandments. You're not translated into the kingdom of His Dear Son because you did such a great job with His Law. You failed. Over and Over. So did I.

We are translated into the Kingdom Because we have faith in Him that He does the work. That He grows the Holy Spirit in our lives. This Holy Spirit that He grows in us is the only thing we have that keeps His Law. We don't even keep His Law afterward by trying in our own power. Yeah I failed at that too. We keep His Law by abiding in Him. If we love Him we abide in Him, and His Love. That's what keeps commandments. Not your effort.

And that is why we are free of the 10 commandments. We are under Grace and the Holy Spirit. The 10 commandments are describing the Holy Spirit in action. We fall from His Grace and His Power when we try on our own to keep these commandments.

The Lord doesn't give you power to walk without Him. Trying to perform His Perfect Law is trying to walk without Him. You either trust Him completely for your righteousness before God or you think that it is Him plus your work that makes you perfect. If you think it is Him plus your works I would say you don't understand the dilemma we are in...

 

[Shiloah]

You've been a Christian your whole life and you still don't get it. Probably because not many teach it or understand it.

You don't believe you need to do anything for salvation but accept Christ? Accept Him for what? Perhaps we should start at the beginning...

I thought it was all about keeping the Law too, I thought that was the way to pleasing Him. But I was wrong, as you are.

You can't do what He has asked. Sorry to break it to you. If you could you wouldn't need Him to begin with.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

By the way, He doesn't ask us to. He commands us to. Keep the Law. Keep it perfectly. Or die in your sins.

There is only one way out. Its not by pretending that you keep His Perfect Law. Its by coming to Him and asking Him to do what you can't do. Make you perfect before God. Present you without spot.

You don't get that by keeping commandments. You're not translated into the kingdom of His Dear Son because you did such a great job with His Law. You failed. Over and Over. So did I.

We are translated into the Kingdom Because we have faith in Him that He does the work. That He grows the Holy Spirit in our lives. This Holy Spirit that He grows in us is the only thing we have that keeps His Law. We don't even keep His Law afterward by trying in our own power. Yeah I failed at that too. We keep His Law by abiding in Him. If we love Him we abide in Him, and His Love. That's what keeps commandments. Not your effort.

And that is why we are free of the 10 commandments. We are under Grace and the Holy Spirit. The 10 commandments are describing the Holy Spirit in action. We fall from His Grace and His Power when we try on our own to keep these commandments.

The Lord doesn't give you power to walk without Him. Trying to perform His Perfect Law is trying to walk without Him. You either trust Him completely for your righteousness before God or you think that it is Him plus your work that makes you perfect. If you think it is Him plus your works I would say you don't understand the dilemma we are in...

I never claimed I keep His law perfectly nor did anyone else on here. He enables me to keep it. Yes, I sin, and then my advocate is Christ who forgives me and tells me to go and sin no more. What about that is so hard for you to understand? In this regard, I actually think we're saying the same thing, you're just interpreting the way I put it as well as some others on here as saying we do it under our own power; and hence, earn our salvation under our own power.

 

[Shiloah]

You can't do what He has asked. Sorry to break it to you. If you could you wouldn't need Him to begin with.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The Lord doesn't give you power to walk without Him. Trying to perform His Perfect Law is trying to walk without Him. You either trust Him completely for your righteousness before God or you think that it is Him plus your work that makes you perfect. If you think it is Him plus your works I would say you don't understand the dilemma we are in...

I know this, Grandpa. But no, trying to keep His commandments WITH HIS HELP AFTER BEING SAVED BY GRACE is exactly what He asked me to do. Only with His help and by His grace I can keep them--TRUE-- but then I strive to do what He asked me to! And IF I sin-- exactly as scriptures say-- my advocate is Christ who forgives me and then enables me to get out there and live my life the best I can to do exactly what He asked me to!

When when when did I or anyone else in here say we do what He said without His help??

And this is not about being saved! It's about doing what our savior asks us to do!

P.S. He asked me to do something He knew I couldn't do? (Totally baffled).

 

[Grandpa]

Gramdpa. you are always talking about "going back to the law". That phrase isn't in the bible and I don't see anything there that relates to that. Would you explain what you mean by that?

I would like to give some of the thoughts I have that it brings up. First, God is in the Torah (first 5 books of the bible) and some call it the law because it gives instructions on Godly principles there. I think it is fundamental so our world operates through what it teaches. If you say we shouldn't listen to those principles, I object.

If you mean that people used to be holy enough to achieve atonement through their works, and you don't want to go back to that, then I also object because it isn't biblical that God ever gave humans that power to make themselves holy. It was always through Christ's blood. Christ is eternal God so even a reflection of that like they had was powerful, it had more power when He came. I don't see how we could make our world go back to a time before Christ was here, don't think we can go back in time. Even if we could, Christ was there.

If you mean that you don't want to think we can be saved through the idea we can perfectly obey the law, then that has never been so, never can be so, we can't go "back" to something that has never been.

If you mean that God doesn't want us to try our best to live by His paths as the law explains them, I also object. I think God wants us to do our best to follow Him.

Do you read the bible verses that I post?

Galatians 3:1-4
[SUP]1[/SUP]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

This is to people who have come to Christ and have received the Holy Spirit. They had gone back to the law, like you do, and have tried to be pleasing to God by trying their best to live by the law like the jews did.

Galatians 3:10-14
[SUP]10[/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Its all throughout Galatians. All you have to do is study it and ask God for wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Shiloah]

Do you read the bible verses that I post?

Galatians 3:1-4
[SUP]1[/SUP]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

This is to people who have come to Christ and have received the Holy Spirit. They had gone back to the law, like you do, and have tried to be pleasing to God by trying their best to live by the law like the jews did.

Galatians 3:10-14
[SUP]10[/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Its all throughout Galatians. All you have to do is study it and ask God for wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

That was about the sacrificial laws. They'd started them up again.

 

[Grandpa]

I know this, Grandpa. But no, trying to keep His commandments WITH HIS HELP AFTER BEING SAVED BY GRACE is exactly what He asked me to do. Only with His help and by His grace I can keep them--TRUE-- but then I strive to do what He asked me to! And IF I sin-- exactly as scriptures say-- my advocate is Christ who forgives me and then enables me to get out there and live my life the best I can to do exactly what He asked me to!

When when when did I or anyone else in here say we do what He said without His help??

And this is not about being saved! It's about doing what our savior asks us to do!

I said it. If you turn back to the Law you have turned away from Him. I'm talking about the 10 commandments. The Law.

If you accept His Grace you have turned from your work at the 10 Commandments to Him.

If you work at the 10 commandments you have turned from Him and desire to perfect your own self through your flesh.

Your middle way is deception. You don't get Grace and works of the Law simultaneously. If that were the case Paul wouldn't have written the book of Galatians. Or Romans. Or most of the rest of the NT.

Maybe you are starting to see why the Jews persecuted Christians? We have a new Way. A way of Rest and not work.

 

[Grandpa]

That was about the sacrificial laws. They'd started them up again.

lol. Nice try.