Mystery, Babylon the Great - earthly Jerusalem?
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You keep mixing the world with belief.
Not ALL the world claims to believe.
The two scriptures you posted concern false believers, not the world. (And certainly not Daniel 7 or Revelations 18).
Please read, the gospel is not mentioned once.
It's called the world.
Change your aspect ratio, it's a totally different subject.
You are myopically rendering the scripture to your own hurt.
Not ALL the world claims to believe.
The two scriptures you posted concern false believers, not the world. (And certainly not Daniel 7 or Revelations 18).
Please read, the gospel is not mentioned once.
It's called the world.
Change your aspect ratio, it's a totally different subject.
You are myopically rendering the scripture to your own hurt.
A
Mystery Babylon and her lovers = false believers not the whole world.
so I don't see what your issue is. Who is not included in Rev 18? the seven headed beast and the see which the Whore sits upon. who would be representing the world. but I thought we were talking about Babylon and her lovers.
perhaps you should see how your own statement applies to yourself, rick.
"You are myopically rendering the scripture to your own hurt."
what hurt do you see me inflicting upon myself?
so I don't see what your issue is. Who is not included in Rev 18? the seven headed beast and the see which the Whore sits upon. who would be representing the world. but I thought we were talking about Babylon and her lovers.
perhaps you should see how your own statement applies to yourself, rick.
"You are myopically rendering the scripture to your own hurt."
what hurt do you see me inflicting upon myself?
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For those who are interested. I found this article interesting:
The Merchandise of Mystery Babylon (Jerusalem) - Sovereign Grace Preterism
The Merchandise of Mystery Babylon (Jerusalem) - Sovereign Grace Preterism
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you know you shouting "wrong" at every post and telling me I'm hurting myself is not really considered a sound debating tactic, Rick.
can you support any of your statements with scripture or even a logical thesis of whom YOU believe Babylon to be?
To clarify my position, (which I would be willing to change if someone could show me the scriptures and have sound hermunetic practices to show me otherwise, since I don't believe this is a salvation issue)
I believe that Babylon the Whore and her lovers are symbolically Hagar, the covenant on Mount Sinai that was broken and her children who are born of the flesh and not the SPIRIT.
I do not believe it refers to the faithful remnant who is represented in Revelation 12, or the faithful Bride of Christ.
can you support any of your statements with scripture or even a logical thesis of whom YOU believe Babylon to be?
To clarify my position, (which I would be willing to change if someone could show me the scriptures and have sound hermunetic practices to show me otherwise, since I don't believe this is a salvation issue)
I believe that Babylon the Whore and her lovers are symbolically Hagar, the covenant on Mount Sinai that was broken and her children who are born of the flesh and not the SPIRIT.
I do not believe it refers to the faithful remnant who is represented in Revelation 12, or the faithful Bride of Christ.
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OK Rachel, you spoke of a lot of things here but you made no since with your statement, except to try to correct me at every turn. I was not speaking of John the Baptist he was a precursor to Christ, there are no Old Testament writings pertaining to him. The Babylonian captivity lasted a long time and yes it was the last place they heard from their prophets. You are correct these two witnesses are taken right out of the pages of Zachariah, if you will just spend a little time and study this out; Zerubbabel and Joshua, were the Prophet and Priest here, representing the Law and the Prophets! ....These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth....... (Or the earth here meaning the Covenant Land ). The prophecy in Revelation concerning these two witnesses are symbolic, this is symbolic imagery, not two actual people! Their deeds mentioned resemble Elijah and Moses, (Who do Elijah and Moses represent? The Law and the Prophets), these are the stories that have been told over and over and over to the children of Israel. When Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, these two witnesses were lifted from the City and the people in it. .......CRUCIFY HIM!.....WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR!.............LET IT BE UPON OUR HEADS AND THE HEADS OF OUR CHILDREN!........... The Law and the Prophets were the two witnesses who stood beside the Lord, as an everlasting sign to God, of His Covenant with them, Israel. At some time right before the siege of Jerusalem, they lay dead and was lifted from their protection, and Old Covenant Israel exists no more. The same two witnesses they had, you have! Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, He did what Israel could not; and by doing this He fulfilled what the rest of the world could not. ZACHARIAH is speaking to Old Covenant Israel and so is JOHN of the scroll of Revelation!
Hagar, the bondwoman of who.
What does Mount Sinai represent?
The Law to who?
Listen, Paul was making an allegory for those Israelites who thought they were saved by the law.
Hagar has nothing to do with the Law of Moses or Mount Sinai or Isaac or Jacob or the twelve tribes.
Stop drawing conclusions based on allegories. Paul was making a point to Jews who said they were children of God because of their lineage.
Mount Sinai has nothing to do with literal Hagar or the gentiles.
The world is described in Revelations 18, not the fallen Jews! - (Which were only two remaining tribes of the twelve anyway).
What does Mount Sinai represent?
The Law to who?
Listen, Paul was making an allegory for those Israelites who thought they were saved by the law.
Hagar has nothing to do with the Law of Moses or Mount Sinai or Isaac or Jacob or the twelve tribes.
Stop drawing conclusions based on allegories. Paul was making a point to Jews who said they were children of God because of their lineage.
Mount Sinai has nothing to do with literal Hagar or the gentiles.
The world is described in Revelations 18, not the fallen Jews! - (Which were only two remaining tribes of the twelve anyway).
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yeah lets just ignore the reference to Mount Sinai in the verse cuz it doesn't fit your preconceived notions.
what did you tell me?
"You are myopically rendering the scripture to your own hurt."
yeah because drawing conclusions is a big no no?
yep and so is John.
never said it did, it has to do with SPIRITUAL Hagar and her children, who would be Jews, right?
no wait, Jews are those who belong to the tribe of Judah.
so what would Hagar's kids be called?
hmmm perhaps gentiles? naahh rick has to be right, can't have anything to do with them...
Fallen unfaithful people of the world which include the fallen Jews, Benjaminites and all who reject Jesus as their Savior.
what did you tell me?
"You are myopically rendering the scripture to your own hurt."
yeah because drawing conclusions is a big no no?
yep and so is John.
never said it did, it has to do with SPIRITUAL Hagar and her children, who would be Jews, right?
no wait, Jews are those who belong to the tribe of Judah.
so what would Hagar's kids be called?
hmmm perhaps gentiles? naahh rick has to be right, can't have anything to do with them...
Fallen unfaithful people of the world which include the fallen Jews, Benjaminites and all who reject Jesus as their Savior.
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Because Rick says so it has to be so right?
undoubtably..
nope some who have Abraham's blood are not even his seed. Jesus called them the seed of Satan.
are you speaking to your self right now?
so no point in trying to teach anyone is there?
nothing that you seem able to provide apparently. right now I would really like some honest discussion and dialog, but its looking less and less likely.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice? and "Please read again" and stop making false statements about what is being said.
undoubtably..
nope some who have Abraham's blood are not even his seed. Jesus called them the seed of Satan.
are you speaking to your self right now?
so no point in trying to teach anyone is there?
nothing that you seem able to provide apparently. right now I would really like some honest discussion and dialog, but its looking less and less likely.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice? and "Please read again" and stop making false statements about what is being said.
Ariel - "nope some who have Abraham's blood are not even his seed. Jesus called them the seed of Satan."
So this leaves out all of the rest.
(Not every tribe came from Abram)
In fact, most of the world did not.
Please,....tell me what I'm missing?
How is it that you conclude Rev. 18 and Daniel 7 address Abraham's seed?
(I'm very curious)
So this leaves out all of the rest.
(Not every tribe came from Abram)
In fact, most of the world did not.
Please,....tell me what I'm missing?
How is it that you conclude Rev. 18 and Daniel 7 address Abraham's seed?
(I'm very curious)
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what are you missing? the fact I never mentioned Daniel 7 or that Rev.18 had anything to do with Abraham's seed.
if you reread the discussion, you will see that it is YOU assert that I say such a thing, when in fact i never have.
Rev. 18 has to do with the people Jesus call the seed of Satan who believed they were Abraham's but were NOT.
They are children of Hagar, bond by the covenant on Mount Sinai. they are fleshly merchants who fornicate with the Whore of Bablyon, who is Earthly Jerusalem.
Exodus 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
2 Corinthians 3
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, [SUP]8 [/SUP]how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? [SUP]9 [/SUP]For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
if you reread the discussion, you will see that it is YOU assert that I say such a thing, when in fact i never have.
Rev. 18 has to do with the people Jesus call the seed of Satan who believed they were Abraham's but were NOT.
They are children of Hagar, bond by the covenant on Mount Sinai. they are fleshly merchants who fornicate with the Whore of Bablyon, who is Earthly Jerusalem.
Exodus 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
2 Corinthians 3
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, [SUP]8 [/SUP]how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? [SUP]9 [/SUP]For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
A
which tribes are you talking about now? you jump all over the place.
12 tribes via Jacob/Israel via Isaac son of Abraham?
12 tribes via Ishmael begotten on Hagar? (labeled Gentiles), which you still haven't acknowledge the truth of them being gentiles even though they are bear the blood of Abraham yet
can't admit that you might be wrong or been mistaken?
the world hates God's children, what don't you understand about that?
the people born of the FLESH hate and persecute those born of the SPIRIT.
how hard is that to understand?
12 tribes via Jacob/Israel via Isaac son of Abraham?
12 tribes via Ishmael begotten on Hagar? (labeled Gentiles), which you still haven't acknowledge the truth of them being gentiles even though they are bear the blood of Abraham yet
can't admit that you might be wrong or been mistaken?
the world hates God's children, what don't you understand about that?
the people born of the FLESH hate and persecute those born of the SPIRIT.
how hard is that to understand?
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the originated from Adam and Eve...........perhaps you should reread the conversation.
you seem to be stuck in this false belief that I ever said that "all of the ethnicities of earth originated from Abram"
I've never stated it. don't have a clue where you got the notion and agree such a statement would be false.
you seem to be stuck in this false belief that I ever said that "all of the ethnicities of earth originated from Abram"
I've never stated it. don't have a clue where you got the notion and agree such a statement would be false.
ok! where'd everyone go?
What ever she says goes.......
Because I cannot make heads or tails of it.
So Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon, Why? I do not know.
Apparently many first century Jews fulfilled the wrath of God.
(Who needs the rest of us, right?)
Still, I find it curious that all of the wares of the merchants are somehow destined to that one city.
- To me it is curious indeed.
- - But then again I'm not seeing it spiritually enough,.......so I guess I'm disqualified to know.
