Mystery, Babylon the Great - earthly Jerusalem?

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was Mystery, Babylon the Great - earthly Jerusalem?


  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:



where does this fit in?
Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.


 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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well the letter you just posted doesn't really address what was actually going on here...namely a professing member of the LCMS going around unequivocally -condemning- LCMS doctrine on the internet...
condemning Lutheran doctrine?
you're the one who does that apparently.

so actually seeing that letter i am going to give the LCMS the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you deceived them...as you try to deceive everyone else...
paranoid hater much?

and now you are claiming that we are going to answer for our opinions on international politics? salvation by assent to zone's politics?
you'll answer for hating your "brothers" (murder) - as much as you say i might. or are you above your own standards. eh.
anyone familiar with your geopolitical postion knows how you feel about ME peoples (btw - there are christians there....most of whom you've claimed aren't christians).

sounds like another false gospel...what ever happened to salvation by grace through faith in christ alone?
don't recall saying anything about unto condemnation.
if it's grace alone regardless of hate (murder; prowar), and no answering for it...then you're a-okay.

show me anywhere that i insisted that the feet of daniel's statue were not the herods and rome...i remember actually having very little to say about the whole herod thing...so i don't know what you are talking about...this is going to go down as another false accusation unless you can post proof...
in the chat room.
you conveniently forgot.
:)

finally you have repeatedly been shown scriptures that place jesus' crucifixion outside of jerusalem...in keeping with the old testament symbolism...you are not rejecting my 'theory'...you are rejecting plain statements of scriptural history...
nah.....your theory is your theory: outside Jerusalem; outside the camp...still the community of Jerusalem, the hear t of which was the city.

twist it all you want to.
 
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Jun 30, 2011
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Babylon is probably america lol - and great is the fall soon yikes! - just a guess
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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completely off topic...a common tactic of dishonest debate is to derail the discussion by bringing up irrelevant issues as distractions...

go back and read your post i replied to. not off topic at all.
you claimed i blame jews for all the evils of the world. *cough*
i post on whoever is the war-criminal-of-the-week.
including your pal mr. rumsfeld.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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lol yes it appears to me that jerusalem sits on many highlands...
lol...it appears you didn't get to chapter 17

Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.


Jerusalem also sits on 7 hills.

oops.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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so actually seeing that letter i am going to give the LCMS the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you deceived them...as you try to deceive everyone else...
Our staff has provided the following response.

2. Second, for the sake of reassurance, it is very helpful to say that the creeds and the Small Catechism are the confessions for our laity and no one should demand a level of subscription beyond that—something very few laity could make in good conscience.


no intention of retracting your so-certain assertion re: excommunication?
no, of course not.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
I did not say Old Covenant Israel. I said the faithful of Old Covenant Israel of that last generation (30 ad to 70 ad), The ones of the Jews who chose Christ over the destruction of the rest of their people. It's good that you've studied and know that the wedding supper was at the end; because this was the end of Old Covenant Israel, unto their happy ever after in eternity!
This is why you can never mistake Mystery Babylon for anything else but Jerusalem, it's Priestly Institution, city Temple, Land and people. God divorced His Wife, and Jesus Married His, and in marrying her He sealed the faithful dead in Shoal unto Himself.
You've out smarted yourself Rachel.
by definition old covenant israel would be the same as the faithful of old covenant israel...if anyone was not faithful then they would be covenant breakers...and as paul explained in romans they would not be israel at all...

so my arguments against identifying the bride of christ with 'the faithful of old covenant israel' still stand...the same principles still apply and would refute either position...

it is funny that in an earlier post you said that those who subscribed to futurist views 'probably can never be fixed'...because it seems that you yourself have subscribed to what is largely a -dispensationalist- view of the bride of christ...

your last argument is -seriously- problematic theologically...

first of all you appear to be making a dangerous distinction between God and jesus...don't you believe jesus christ is God?

secondly...those jews who came out of the old covenant system and accepted christ were originally part of that system...meaning they too were originally married to God according to your doctrine...

and that raises a dilemma...one in which both options have blasphemous implications...did God divorce those people or not?

if God didn't divorce them...and jesus also married them...then jesus is with someone who is already married...that is called adultery...

if God did divorce them...and jesus married them...then jesus has married a divorced woman which would make him an adulterer according to his own teaching in matthew 5:32 and luke 16:18...it would also make him a hypocrite...and it would make him unfit for the priesthood according to leviticus 21:14...and finally it would also make christ's bride into an adulteress according to jesus' teaching in mark 10:12...

when you really think things through...this doctrine of yours is a total theological disaster...
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.


so jerusalem sits on britannia and cyrene and thrace and gaul and macedonia and italy and so on...it must have been a pretty big city... :rolleyes:

oh wait...those are the peoples covered by the -roman- empire...meaning -rome- sat on those waters in john's day...
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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so jerusalem sits on britannia and cyrene and thrace and gaul and macedonia and italy and so on...it must have been a pretty big city... :rolleyes:

oh wait...those are the peoples covered by the -roman- empire...meaning -rome- sat on those waters in john's day...
you just don't believe anything God says:

Ezekiel 5:5
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.

the HARLOT...sat in the center of the nations....she rode the beast - ROME.

don't get it, huh?
 
Mar 18, 2011
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That's good with me you put it out there! But you cannot interpret Prophetic Covenant Scripture, as you please.
It's beyond my comprehension how smart people, who know that 30 ad to 70 ad was the most important time in the history of man. It was the last generation of Old Covenant Israel and the first Generation of New Covenant Israel; but according to all of the false prophets this great prophecy, had nothing to do with this time in history!!!
:D I have an insider when it comes to interpreting prophetic covenant scripture ;)

I have two images in my head as to how I will answer God when He says "why did you say or do those things?"

1st "all of the top scholars believed this."
Or 2 " I prayed to you Lord and trusted what You put in my heart."

I'll take choice 2 :D
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
condemning Lutheran doctrine?
you're the one who does that apparently.



paranoid hater much?



you'll answer for hating your "brothers" (murder) - as much as you say i might. or are you above your own standards. eh.
anyone familiar with your geopolitical postion knows how you feel about ME peoples (btw - there are christians there....most of whom you've claimed aren't christians).



don't recall saying anything about unto condemnation.
if it's grace alone regardless of hate (murder; prowar), and no answering for it...then you're a-okay.



in the chat room.
you conveniently forgot.
:)



nah.....your theory is your theory: outside Jerusalem; outside the camp...still the community of Jerusalem, the hear t of which was the city.

twist it all you want to.
considering i have caught you in numerous brazen lies on this forum...i have no reason to doubt that lying to LCMS theologians about the situation you inquired about is beneath your usual level of deceit...

i can't name anyone that i actually -hate-...however i -do- hate false teaching...hate the sin and love the sinner... :cool:

anyone familiar with my 'geopolitical position' knows that i support countries when they do the right thing and i oppose them when they do something wrong...that includes those in the middle east... your real problem with my view of international politics is that i don't -imagine- tremendous amounts of wrongdoing on the part of one particular middle eastern people the way you do...

the bible teaches that our standing with God has -nothing whatsoever- to do with our works...let alone our politics... christ didn't shed his blood so that you could go around imposing a -false gospel- of geopolitical legalism...

salvation by grace alone through faith alone in christ alone regardless of -anything- else...that is the biblical position...and incidentally it is also the lutheran position...which you are now condemning and ridiculing...

maybe you should ask the LCMS theologians if you can be excommunicated for preaching against the gospel of grace...

now you excuse your inability to prove your accusation about my opinion on the feet of daniel's statue by saying i said it in the chat room...how -convenient- that it wasn't on the forum where everyone could readily go and see if this claim of yours is actually true...

lastly if you actually paid attention to the old testament symbolism or its messianic application in the epistle to the hebrews...then you would know that 'outside the camp' symbolized a -removal- from the community...such as when the scapegoat symbolically carried the sins of the people -out of the community-
 
M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
Zone, do you think the prophecies against Babylon could have a duel fulfillment? For example, your first posts I think demonstrate that Babylon is/was Jerusalem. And I would say some of these prophecies (again, those you indicated), were fulfilled in 70AD. However, the language seems very extreme compared to what actually happened to Babylon, and there is still a city of (old) Jerusalem today. Do you think there are some prophecies yet to be fulfilled, such as her smoke rising up for ever and ever (Rev 18:18 - 19:3)?
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
go back and read your post i replied to. not off topic at all.
you claimed i blame jews for all the evils of the world. *cough*
i post on whoever is the war-criminal-of-the-week.
including your pal mr. rumsfeld.
actually i said you 'you like to blame the jewish people for just about every bad thing that has ever happened'...which is true as anyone cane see from many many of your posts on this forum...

so i didn't say you blame jews for -all- the evils of the world...i made an allowance for the possibility that you might blame something like trampled petunias on someone other than the jews...

in any case...the post you responded to included nothing about donald rumsfeld or faulty intelligence...nor are those things topics of this thread...so with your response you brought up something entirely different that has nothing to do with the thread nor the post you were replying to...which is why it was correct of me to call it 'off topic'...

you were trying to derail your humiliation by creating a diversion...and i know better that to be baited by such distractions...
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Our staff has provided the following response.

2. Second, for the sake of reassurance, it is very helpful to say that the creeds and the Small Catechism are the confessions for our laity and no one should demand a level of subscription beyond that—something very few laity could make in good conscience.


no intention of retracting your so-certain assertion re: excommunication?
no, of course not.
there is a difference between being unable in good conscience to subscribe to confessions whose full content you may not be aware of...and actually -knowing- what those confessions say and going around an internet forum -condemning- and -ridiculing- the views expressed in those confessions...

since the letter you posted addressed only the former situation...as opposed to the latter situation which is what is actually going on...it seems clear to me that you must have been deceptive in your inquiry...asking a hypothetical question about something other than what you were actually doing...
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
you just don't believe anything God says:

Ezekiel 5:5
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.

the HARLOT...sat in the center of the nations....she rode the beast - ROME.

don't get it, huh?
such sloppy eisegesis...

being set in the center of the nations and sitting on those nations are two completely different things...

if i said i was set in the center of many chairs...clearly i would -not- be saying that i am sitting on all of the chairs...

note to zone...twisting scripture is considered a -bad thing- and a sign that a person is ignorant and unstable according to 2 peter 3:16
 
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T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
3,356
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Revelations 18
11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.


14 “They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16 and cry out:


“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’
“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ 19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:


“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’
20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you.”
21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:


“With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22 The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No worker of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23 The light of a lamp
will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world’s important people.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
To me Israel does not fit the bill in modern day's.... For Israel to fall would be the equivalent of Italy or France falling... Yes it would be heartbreaking; however, to me it has to be a major trade center like never before seen in the world... Which points me personally to New York... The huge stock market, wealthy merchants... Music, love, trades... Everything centers in New York at the moment... All things go through her, nothing in the world does not... Including slaves, we trade businesses that hold slaves...

And new york (Through money) rules over all 7 continents...
 
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M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
To me Israel does not fit the bill in modern day's.... For Israel to fall would be the equivalent of Italy or France falling... Yes it would be heartbreaking; however, to me it has to be a major trade center like never before seen in the world... Which points me personally to New York... The huge stock market, wealthy merchants... Music, love, trades... Everything centers in New York at the moment... All things go through her, nothing in the world does not... Including slaves, we trade businesses that hold slaves... And new york (Through money) rules over all 7 continents...
But who, my friend, controls New York? The United States even? Many of the countries of the world? It was said by Voltaire (a heathen, I believe) that "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise". In most Western countries, you can blaspheme Jesus at a whim (in some places, its a cultural habit), you can speak out against Mohammed and Islam (heck, we're fighting wars to wipe these people out), but as soon as you criticise the Jewish religion, Israel, or even details about the Jewish Holocaust, you are branded an anti-semite, a hate criminal, and in many cases, thrown in jail for years.

I think there is little doubt who rules over most of the Western World.
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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But who, my friend, controls New York? The United States even? Many of the countries of the world? It was said by Voltaire (a heathen, I believe) that "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise". In most Western countries, you can blaspheme Jesus at a whim (in some places, its a cultural habit), you can speak out against Mohammed and Islam (heck, we're fighting wars to wipe these people out), but as soon as you criticise the Jewish religion, Israel, or even details about the Jewish Holocaust, you are branded an anti-semite, a hate criminal, and in many cases, thrown in jail for years.

I think there is little doubt who rules over most of the Western World.
I am not disagreeing that some one is in control of the 'world'... However the city is to be a shock to the world at that exact moment... People will through dust on their heads exclaiming there was never as great as a city as this new Babylon... Clearly when old Babylon fell someone was in charge of it... yet no one cared about the ruler they cared about the city. Because it was a symbol to all around... That makes me think it is going to be a major trade port... In 10 years time maybe somewhere in China, but at this moment New York... I think the 7 hills represent the 7 continents of the world... As far as 10 kings, I am not that knowledgeable in this topic for that... But what I gathered was that normal people every day people would be in serious mourning saying that this was the greatest city that ever lived...
 
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Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
Yeah, I agree to a point. Perhaps it hasn't reached its sin thresh-hold at present. I agree with what Zone says as to the identity of Babylon, but I also feel that she (i.e. Babylon) hasn't received fully her come-uppance. Like, she certainly isn't burning forever at the moment. Perhaps in the next 10, 20 or 50 years, as this city becomes more powerful, and I believe it will (another thread talks about the pope moving there or something - not sure what to make of that exactly), and as she starts to move her oppression against Christians from financial, to physical, then to death (perhaps with the Noahide laws popping up all over?), the people who survive and flourish will become more anti-Christ, greedy, hateful of Christians etc. So at the point God finishes His judgement of her, all Christians will say "Yes, your justice is good, Lord", and all the non-Christians will be mourning.

These are only thoughts, obviously - I like to hear others' biblically-based insight.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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considering i have caught you in numerous brazen lies on this forum...
you are a legend in your own mind.
you haven't caught me in a single lie.
i haven't lied.

you live in denial.
that would be......your issue.