Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?

[Grandpa]

But you quoted this verse. Romans 8:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Okay let me rephrase that. Is the law spiritual, and the Spirit life, and can you explain the spiritual aspects of the law please, for Paul said the law is Spiritual?

The law is spiritual but it is not the Spirit. The Law is a description of the Holy Spirit. The Law is a description of what the Lord Jesus gives us when we abide in Him.

If we try to keep it any other way we fail.

In that way none of us can boast. The only law keeping we do is because Christ has given us the obedience as a gift. Our only boast is in Christ. As soon as we think we are strong and can keep law we fail and must come back to Christ and ask forgiveness.

 

[just-me]

The law is spiritual but it is not the Spirit. The Law is a description of the Holy Spirit. The Law is a description of what the Lord Jesus gives us when we abide in Him.

If we try to keep it any other way we fail.

In that way none of us can boast. The only law keeping we do is because Christ has given us the obedience as a gift. Our only boast is in Christ. As soon as we think we are strong and can keep law we fail and must come back to Christ and ask forgiveness.

I agree. So if I may without anymore misunderstanding then you are saying also that we understand the Spirit by the law?

And I quote "The Law is a description of the Holy Spirit." I would say it different that we understand the law by the Spirit because the law is Spiritual. Could you agree with that?

 

[Grandpa]

Well, grandpa left. fooee! was hoping he'd stick around to answer my question after I was more specific. Well, I'll just post this then..

I have to leave and come back to see more posts...

Romans 8:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. .

Those verses are telling you that you can't keep the law. Your only hope is the Spirit that the Lord Jesus Christ gives when you abide in Him. In that way the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, not by our keeping of it, but by our abiding in Christ. It is a fruit of abiding in Christ.

We must hear something first in order to be led by the Spirit, and as Jesus told us that His Father would send the Spirit, it is rational to think that the Word had to come first for Jesus was the Word, and He taught while the Old Testament was still in effect.

Hebrews 9:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

It took the death of Christ to complete and fulfill all things from the beginning of time. Rejecting anything that was established by God and Jesus from the beginning, is actually rejecting everything before the New Testament. Remember when Jesus prayed? John 17:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus sanctioned the law that God gave to Moses for He was there. Follow the Law by the Spirit, NOT by the flesh.

Follow the Spirit. Abide in Christ. In that way the law takes care of itself. You know, the fruit of the spirit... against such there is no law... If you try to follow the law itself you are condemned because of its perfection. The law only points out flaws, it doesn't do anything to fix those flaws.

 

[Grandpa]

I agree. So if I may without anymore misunderstanding then you are saying also that we understand the Spirit by the law?

And I quote "The Law is a description of the Holy Spirit." I would say it different that we understand the law by the Spirit because the law is Spiritual. Could you agree with that?

I would say we understand the perfection of the law because of the perfection of the Spirit. I would say we have been given glimpses of this and partial understanding. I wouldn't say that we understand the law unless we were keeping it perfectly.

 

[just-me]

I have to leave and come back to see more posts...

Those verses are telling you that you can't keep the law. Your only hope is the Spirit that the Lord Jesus Christ gives when you abide in Him. In that way the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, not by our keeping of it, but by our abiding in Christ. It is a fruit of abiding in Christ.

Follow the Spirit. Abide in Christ. In that way the law takes care of itself. You know, the fruit of the spirit... against such there is no law... If you try to follow the law itself you are condemned because of its perfection. The law only points out flaws, it doesn't do anything to fix those flaws.

I know this, but thanks anyway. Back to what I asked as far as our most recent conversation.

The law is spiritual but it is not the Spirit. The Law is a description of the Holy Spirit. The Law is a description of what the Lord Jesus gives us when we abide in Him.

If we try to keep it any other way we fail.

In that way none of us can boast. The only law keeping we do is because Christ has given us the obedience as a gift. Our only boast is in Christ. As soon as we think we are strong and can keep law we fail and must come back to Christ and ask forgiveness.

I agree. So if I may without anymore misunderstanding then you are saying also that we understand the Spirit by the law?

And I quote "The Law is a description of the Holy Spirit." I would say it different that we understand the law by the Spirit because the law is Spiritual. Could you agree with that?

 

[crossnote]

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Those who bypass faith in God's promises and choose their own way or God's law in their own strength will eventually persecute those favored by grace.
See also...
Galatians 4:28-29 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

 

[Yahshua]

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Those who bypass faith in God's promises and choose their own way or God's law in their own strength will eventually persecute those favored by grace.
See also...
Galatians 4:28-29 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Hi Crossnote,

May I ask how you come to your conclusion, because there are a few accusations here:

• Following God's law is bypassing faith...
• Following God's law is choosing one's own way...
• One following God's Law is doing so in one's own strength...
• One following God's law is not favored by grace (by implication)...
• One not following God's law is favored by grace (by implication)...
• One following God's law will eventually persecute one favored by grace...

If I've misstated your position please forgive me and correct me...but please share how you come to your conclusion.

 

[JaumeJ]

Please explain why the beast is described in the New Testament as the Lawless one if laws mean nothing to the faithful? Just this, nothing more.

 

[psychomom]

Please go back and read what I wrote, as I mentioned your post #104 at the beginning.

You are right about Mary, and David. Like David said, let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight. Both Mary and David were Jews, and were from the tribe of Judah, the name Judah being the foundation of the shorter term during Roman rule as "Jew."

Now, I ask all reading this; Why is there contention? The answer is that we are too proud to see the heart of the other person, and even our own heart as God sees us. This is a big failure on our part, not to stop and really look at the truth. Yet if there is contention on purpose, we can also see that kind of heart.
Does that make us judgmental? YES if we are condemning, and NO if we are discerning.
Let's stop trying to convert others by instigating division. Causing division is not the heart that it takes to convert, for it comes from a heart that is overly proud.
Are we really wanting to know the truth, or are we trying to convert people, that revere the Mosaic Law, by condemning what they believe in their heart. If so, the heart isn't right. Wow, there's the heart thing.
Proverbs 16:5-6 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

May God bless you in all wisdom.
And psychomom, thank you for sharing your heart!! It is always inspirational when we see the real heart of other beleivers in Christ Jesus

I'm glad you brought this up, as my husband and I were speaking of it just yesterday.

In absolutely no way am I attempting to convert Torah keepers.
I'm only trying, in my feeble way, to share the great and glorious Gospel of Christ Jesus.

I've hesitated to share this, but here goes.
We have old friends from church who became Torah keepers...at first.
They are good and dear friends with whom we raised our children, and we visited each other often after they moved away.
They have in the years that have passed changed their names and converted to Judaism.

I find that immeasurably sad.
I don't mean to apply that to anyone here, or imply their end will be the same.
But I see it as a sort of warning. The husband has a huge website that I guess is pretty popular.

I hope it's okay for me to point out you don't seem to reply to posters who agree with you
with rebukes and warnings about causing contention.
But it's entirely possible I haven't read everything you've ever written. (haha)

I don't mean to create strife. I do realize I will convert no one.
Proverbs is replete with warnings about strife and quarreling.
The NT also has warnings for me, and I try to bear them in mind.
(2 Tim 2:23-25; Jas 3:14-18; Jas 4:1; 1 Tim 1:5-7; Rom 14:19; etc.)

I don't think that in trying to see someone else's heart we should ignore false misrepresentations of the Word of God, though.
But I do agree the fruit of the Holy Spirit should be evident, and if I have not done that, I am sorry.

In what I hope is my last so personal post,
ellie

 

[JaumeJ]

The strictest definition of Torah is teaching. With this in mind "torah keeping" would be the Word, not just the Laws given to Moses. Every Word that proceeds from the Mouth of Yahweh.

As per the laws, remember Yahweh declares in Jeremiah that He gave laws that were NOT GOOD. Understand the difference as you learn from every word that proceeds from the Mouth of Yahweh. There are the good laws which the meanest of intellects is able to discern.

Back to the term, Torah keeper, when intended as one who observes and attempts to keep all of the law, this is impossible, and is made obvious by grace in Yeshua.

 

[loveme1]

Paul taught against the law of circumcision. Will he be least in the kingdom of heaven?

Did the Messiah Command us to be circumcised in His Testimony?

 

[Least]

Paul taught against the law of circumcision. Will he be least in the kingdom of heaven?

Paul did teach against circumcision of the flesh to the Gentiles, he didn't condemn the Jews for being circumcised. He talks about the circumcision of Abraham as well.

I must ask you, before you took such a strong stance on this subject, did you search it out prayerfully? Because the bible has a lot to say on this, both about natural circumcision and circumcision of the heart, and it even mentions circumcision of the ears in order to hear!

There's a division there, from natural to the spiritual.

Here are some examples of circumcision listed in the scriptures.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Even in the OT, God is giving us a picture of what circumcision according to HIM really means.

Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[SpiritofFire]

Paul did teach against circumcision of the flesh.

I must ask you, before you took such a strong stance on this subject, did you search it out prayerfully? Because the bible has a lot to say on this, both about natural circumcision and circumcision of the heart, and it even mentions circumcision of the ears in order to hear!

There's a division there, from natural to the spiritual.

Here are some examples of circumcision listed in the scriptures.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Even in the OT, God is giving us a picture of what circumcision according to HIM really means.

Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

What do they mean?

 

[loveme1]

I believe that we as people get carried away.

Ellie, shared with us some insight about friends of hers who could of been carried away with the doctrine of men.

If we study the Messiah's Testimony is it not that all can be observed in Spirit and Truth?

If one goes to the Old Testament and puts themselves under it so to speak, believing observing keeps them saved then they should ask themselves, why was the New Testament given?

Paul sums it very well:

Hebrews 8

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old isready to vanish away.

John 1

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Friends without Grace and Truth we are dead in our sins.

One can put themselves under the Old Testament but eternal life comes through Faith in Yahshua the Son of GOD.

We are to Believe.

Be Faithful to the Messiah by Hearing and Keeping His Word.

For it is by the Love of GOD that we love GOD.

And with all that shared, i believe the Messiah taught us to Keep the Sabbath day rest Commandment.

The Messiah Yahshua commands much of us.. one can not measure themselves against the Ten for self-righteousness!

No be sure we are adhering to His Words and be counted worthy by His Righteousness.

 

[Least]

What do they mean?

The first mention in the bible of Circumcision is in regards to Abraham. The circumcision that God instructed him to do was called a "Token,"

Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
It was a foreshadow of things to come.

It directly has to do with Christ on our hearts and minds, and being made whole in HIM.

Jesus spoke about this when the Pharisees were angry because he healed a man.

John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

A sinner knows that he has need of a savoir, Jesus refers to the sinner as being sick.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

In Christ we are made new, he mends us, molds us and refines us. The bible has a lot to say on these things.

Jesus told the disciples this:

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This shows the need of Christ leading us and guiding us, and the process of our walk in HIM. When we believe and are baptized in the Spirit, we know only one thing without a doubt, that JESUS is the Savior and redeemer, HE is the way the truth and the life, He came into this world, walked with men, taught the truth, shed HIS blood on the cross and rose again the third day.

From that point, HE grows us and matures us and HE teaches us, HE gave us instruction in the written word on how this is done, and it all goes into seeking, knocking and asking HIM to show us, lead us, guide us and teach us. To change our hearts and to renew us.

Psalms 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

We can hear people say all kinds of things, sometimes very profound things, but unless we take it to Christ first and ask HIM and search it out praying for true understanding we just grasp a concept. When Christ reveals His truth to us through our searching and seeking HIS truth with our whole heart. There's no mistaking it when HE reveals it to us, and it brings about a change in us.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

It's not about trusting in our own strength or our own might or even our own understanding, but by having faith in HIS power. It's not about trusting in the flesh but trusting in HIM.

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[JaumeJ]

If we always look to Jesus, we know what course of action and being in life we must pursue.

He obeyed all of the law for us all, thus fulfilling it for us all.

Now, all we need do is obey those laws, the ones directing our way in love, as best we are able. We will falter, but this is why we came to Yeshua in the first place, for His Personal Mercy and the gift of living in His Grace.

It does not take much to understand we have nothing to fear ever again from the law due to death for it was destroyed on the cross, that is the consequences of breaking laws that are good.

Now we may obey without fear, and without thinking we will be perfect on our own. It is a blasphemy to deliberately do anything that Jesus did not do in order to save us for He did not destroy the law, He fulfilled it.

Do not be afraid of the law, all its teeth have been extracted, no bite ever again, amen.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

Paul taught against the law of circumcision. Will he be least in the kingdom of heaven?

Did the Messiah Command us to be circumcised in His Testimony?

Paul taught against the law of circumcision. Will he be least in the kingdom of heaven?

I must ask you, before you took such a strong stance on this subject, did you search it out prayerfully?

I'm not sure, but I think you both may be taking HeRoseFromTheDead's post out of context. He certainly isn't saying that Paul will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. He is pointing out the heresy of those who teach it is beneficial to be yoked under the burden of the law, after we have accepted Christ. Indeed, for those who do this, Christ will profit them nothing.

The question is to prove the folly of trying to be justified by works.

 

[konroh]

The idea of keeping all 613 commandments of the OT law should be a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. So says Galatians 3:25. But this idea of schoolmaster is not that of a teacher, it's really a teacher's aide. The teacher is Christ. He teaches us the way of faith and we can then obey the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2).

Some say that we obey now only the moral laws of the OT, not the ceremonial or civil ones, but the entire Law as a code for the Jewish people was never so divided, it was to be kept completely. This is why Rom. 6:14 says we are not under law but under grace. But God has always been a God of good, and His eternal law is good. Murder, adultery, violence, stealing, lying are all negative commandments that pre-date the giving of the OT law in Exodus, and are all a part of God's eternal law.

We are under grace, we are free from the bondage to the Mosaic law code, but that code was good and should lead us to Christ, it shows us our sin and our need for a Savior. By faith we can then live under the law of Christ, which is part of God's eternal law of Good, not in the letter which kills, but in the Spirit which gives life.

 

[JaumeJ]

No one who has named Yeshua as Savior and God has stated we must obey all the ceremonial laws. This argument against obeying the Father is getting just a little bit worn. We know not to do anything deliberately that Jesus avoided doing in order to save us all. Again, to deliberately teach against any of these laws is walking on the Blood of the Lamb. He is the Example of what to obey. You know this. If you do not, you must study the Word, and pray.

If we always look to Jesus, we know what course of action and being in life we must pursue.

He obeyed all of the law for us all, thus fulfilling it for us all.

Now, all we need do is obey those laws, the ones directing our way in love, as best we are able. We will falter, but this is why we came to Yeshua in the first place, for His Personal Mercy and the gift of living in His Grace.

It does not take much to understand we have nothing to fear ever again from the law due to death for it was destroyed on the cross, that is the consequences of breaking laws that are good.

Now we may obey without fear, and without thinking we will be perfect on our own. It is a blasphemy to deliberately do anything that Jesus did not do in order to save us for He did not destroy the law, He fulfilled it.

Do not be afraid of the law, all its teeth have been extracted, no bite ever again, amen.

The idea of keeping all 613 commandments of the OT law should be a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. So says Galatians 3:25. But this idea of schoolmaster is not that of a teacher, it's really a teacher's aide. The teacher is Christ. He teaches us the way of faith and we can then obey the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2).

Some say that we obey now only the moral laws of the OT, not the ceremonial or civil ones, but the entire Law as a code for the Jewish people was never so divided, it was to be kept completely. This is why Rom. 6:14 says we are not under law but under grace. But God has always been a God of good, and His eternal law is good. Murder, adultery, violence, stealing, lying are all negative commandments that pre-date the giving of the OT law in Exodus, and are all a part of God's eternal law.

We are under grace, we are free from the bondage to the Mosaic law code, but that code was good and should lead us to Christ, it shows us our sin and our need for a Savior. By faith we can then live under the law of Christ, which is part of God's eternal law of Good, not in the letter which kills, but in the Spirit which gives life.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Those who bypass faith in God's promises and choose their own way or God's law in their own strength will eventually persecute those favored by grace.
See also...
Galatians 4:28-29 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

I hadn't really seen the 'favored by grace part' until lately. But it's true. Favored by grace. What a blessing!