The Bible debate

[Nick01]

I really don't get it. What is wrong with the KJV?

Unless you find small differences in translation, and added words in the KJV a problem, nothing. One can read the KJV and know God's counsel. The problem is when you say the KJV is the ONLY translation that contains God's counsel.

When it becomes a question of the style of language, it's also a problem, because it's entirely subjective. For instance, I quite like:

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

I personally like that better than the KJV. But that isn't a help in me convincing people to read the ESV, just as it isn't any help in convincing any others to read the KJV, because it is by definition what I feel about the text. Not saying your thoughts on the beauty of the text don't accurately describe how you feel about it. It's just how you feel about the text.

 

[danschance]

Clearly you run in different circles than I. I do not know one person that prefers the ESV over the KJV.

Given the choice of ESV or KJV, that choice wold be clear for me. I would definitely pick the ESV.

 

[phil112]

.................. you say the KJV is the ONLY translation that contains God's counsel..

I didn't say that, tho I believe there to be truth to it. I haven't looked at all of the versions, but I have studied the veracity of the KJV intensely, and it passes muster. Why look further?

When it becomes a question of the style of language, it's also a problem, because it's entirely subjective. For instance, I quite like: Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Let's compare that wording with the KJV: Study[SUP]4704[/SUP] to shew[SUP]3936[/SUP] thyself[SUP]4572[/SUP] approved[SUP]1384[/SUP] unto Elohim[SUP]2316[/SUP], a workman[SUP]2040[/SUP] that needeth not to be ashamed[SUP]422[/SUP], rightly dividing[SUP]3718[/SUP] the word[SUP]3056[/SUP] of truth[SUP]225[/SUP].
4704: spoudazo - to make effort, diligence, earnest
3936: paristemi - exhibit, substantiate, prove
1384: dokimos - acceptable, approved
2040: ergates - toiler, labourer, worker
3718: orthotomeo - make a straight cut, dissect correctly

I submit to you that your version does not do it justice. "Do your best" is hardly ever taken literally. Rarely does someone really "do their best". The KJV shows more intensity in that effort, which cannot be over-emphasized when we talk about how we should learn the Word. "Handling" does not at all describe how much precision is asked for when defining God's word.

............... it is by definition what I feel about the text. ............

\
How "you feel" about it is irrevelant. It is Gods word and it better remain intact. Truth matters, not feelings.

 

[RedTent]

I feel sure the bible translations that are best for people who can't read ancient Hebrew or read Greek is at least four translations and a software program that puts these translations on the screen side by side, along with Strong's to help find the original meaning of a word.

Each group of bible translators had a purpose for spending so much time translating, it helps to know their purpose. It is impossible to keep prejudice out of how we understand scripture. When we know that the KJV was translated during a time when Luther was advocating killing rabbi's and Spain was killing Jews, we know there had to be some prejudice the translators had, they were a product of their time. It helps to know these things as we compare different translations to hope to find the original purpose God had in each scripture.

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

I feel sure the bible translations that are best for people who can't read ancient Hebrew or read Greek is at least four translations and a software program that puts these translations on the screen side by side, along with Strong's to help find the original meaning of a word.

Each group of bible translators had a purpose for spending so much time translating, it helps to know their purpose. It is impossible to keep prejudice out of how we understand scripture. When we know that the KJV was translated during a time when Luther was advocating killing rabbi's and Spain was killing Jews, we know there had to be some prejudice the translators had, they were a product of their time. It helps to know these things as we compare different translations to hope to find the original purpose God had in each scripture.

This is the right answer.

 

[Kerry]

Many of the original KJV translators were not christians they Hebrew and Greek and Latin Scholars hired by the throne. I also know of a present day greek scholar with years of higher education in the greek language and he say's it lot like the English language where one word can have many different meanings and the best and only way to define a word is in context. Now with that said, He said even with his knowledge and context, He could not be accurately sure of the translation, unless he knew the person writing and lived in his day. For instance, in the English language there are words that we used 25 years ago that we do not use today. How many teenagers would know what an 8-track tape is? or a vinyl album?

As Paul would say, we must place our faith in Christ and rely on the Holy Spirit.

 

[LT]

Who here has the Kingdom of heaven or God in them? We are taught by the King that the Kingdom people are different than the World people. John 17. And He also taught the Kingdom people to pray this....

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
If we pray for HIS will to be done in earth as in heaven, HOW IS HIS WILL DONE IN HEAVEN? Are there still disobedience and sinning members in heaven? NOPE, then a kingdom person is no longer a disobedient or sinning person. THE WILL OF FATHER IS DONE IN HIM... This is the will of Father....
Mat 5:48... Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If the Kingdom of Father is IN ME, is it not the SEED of HIM in me? IS the SEED of God not the KINGDOM of God IN ME?

I believe the will of Father is only done on earth if HIS SEED is in me... and if the seed is in me then this is how Father's will is done... 1 John 3:9... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And if a sinner tells me the kongdom of God is in him I am reminded of this verse.... 1 John 3:8...He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

I truly believe that the children of God whi walks with the Kingdom of God in them, reveived the Kingdom when God gave them a NEW heart, and HIS Holy Spirit. Here is the thing. God did not MODIFY their old stony hearts, HE GAVE THEM A NEW ONE... God did not modify their old spirits, HE GAVE THEM HIS SPIRIT IN THEM...

So the Kingdom of God is the NEW HEART and HIS SPIRIT in them....
Ezekiel 36....A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

^this is why people should stay away from KJV...

the false doctrines that come out of not understanding High English is just astounding.

 

[phil112]

^this is why people should stay away from KJV...

the false doctrines that come out of not understanding High English is just astounding.

Now, now, LT, footballs and oysters. They just don't work with each other.

 

[Nick01]

I didn't say that, tho I believe there to be truth to it. I haven't looked at all of the versions, but I have studied the veracity of the KJV intensely, and it passes muster. Why look further?

I didn't mean 'you' in the sense of 'phil112', but just as a general you. But you say there is truth in it, so either way, it obviously parallels what you yourself believe.

I submit to you that your version does not do it justice. "Do your best" is hardly ever taken literally. Rarely does someone really "do their best". The KJV shows more intensity in that effort, which cannot be over-emphasized when we talk about how we should learn the Word. "Handling" does not at all describe how much precision is asked for when defining God's word.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with your submission. 'Do your best' is accurate if you take God's word at its... well, word - diligence and 'doing your best' is exactly what is being called for - it's certainly completely comprehensible and reflects σπουδάζω's sense of full personal application . Study certainly isn't a viable alternative - it may have some sense hundreds of years ago, but now carries only an academic sense in contemporary English, which is not what the passage is actually driving at. Interestingly, this is basically the only time σπουδάζω is translated as anything other than 'diligence' or 'be diligent' in the KJV. There is certainly no sense of intensity in the word 'study'

What do you mean by handling in the use of ὀρθοτομέω? I will certainly concede that the KJV slightly more accurately preserves the use of the original idiom (which is, to cut straight), but the meaning of the term subsists not so much in the cutting, but simply in the straightness of the cut. In that sense, it bears some similarity to the idea of 'making your paths straight' - the straightness being the operative term.

In that respect, precision then is mostly irrelevant to the actual words Paul uses. Division is really not what is called for by the term - it's simply saying that the cut is straight. Straightness is what is called for, not accurate division, or a 'precise' cut. So in that respect, the KJV doesn't accurately give us the full sense of the original idiom. At least the idiom of ὀρθοτομέω is correctly explained in the ESV.

How "you feel" about it is irrevelant. It is Gods word and it better remain intact. Truth matters, not feelings.

I thank you for agreeing with me Hence why whether the text is accurate and intelligible is much more important to me than whether it 'sounds' like what 'God's word should sound like' or not.

 

[twotwo]

More often than otherwise, those who advocate the KJV are fundamentalists who preach their own doctrines to enslave those who are weak in the faith.

 

[p_rehbein]

More often than otherwise, those who advocate the KJV are fundamentalists who preach their own doctrines to enslave those who are weak in the faith.

....uh, do you have documented evidence of this assertion?.......or is this just your biased opinion?

 

[p_rehbein]

Many of the original KJV translators were not christians they Hebrew and Greek and Latin Scholars hired by the throne. I also know of a present day greek scholar with years of higher education in the greek language and he say's it lot like the English language where one word can have many different meanings and the best and only way to define a word is in context. Now with that said, He said even with his knowledge and context, He could not be accurately sure of the translation, unless he knew the person writing and lived in his day. For instance, in the English language there are words that we used 25 years ago that we do not use today. How many teenagers would know what an 8-track tape is? or a vinyl album?

As Paul would say, we must place our faith in Christ and rely on the Holy Spirit.

can you give me a list of the names of those translators who were not Christian believers? that would be great!

those who diss on the KJV are just as guilty of belittling God as those who diss on other translations.........

for people to believe all this criticism of whatever translation is being argued (with obvious exceptions) is to assert that God is not powerful enough to ensure the correct translation of His Holy Bible.........don't know about you guys, but MY GOD can surely preserve His Holy Word regardless of the person(s) translating.

 

[phil112]

More often than otherwise, those who advocate the KJV are fundamentalists who preach their own doctrines to enslave those who are weak in the faith.

Quote from a prime example of someone who needs milk, not strong meat.

 

[GaryA]

More often than otherwise, those who advocate the KJV are fundamentalists who preach their own doctrines to enslave those who are weak in the faith.

More often than otherwise, those who advocate the KJV:

~ do so because they realize and understand the vital importance of reading / studying / teaching / preaching a non-corrupted bible version.

~ know that whatever "extra" effort that may be required to 'understand the KJV' -- is well worth it -- because of the "extra" truth contained therein - that is lost / corrupted / perverted in the modern translations.

~ know that the translators of the KJV were far more dedicated to ensuring a proper translation of God's Word into English.

~ know that - because it is 'timeless' - it is the best bible translation available in English. It is not subject to the "will and whim" of modern-day corrupted thinkers ( who, often, do not even know it ).

~ know that, as a practical issue, a group of people who are reading / studying / listening together will benefit more if all of them have the same bible version. And, while this singular idea is true whatever-the-bible-version -- when combined with all of the other ideas mentioned here, as well as the historical significance - makes the KJV unmistakably the best bible translation available in English.



Even among possibly several "accepted" bible versions --- why would anyone not want to use the best one available?



Anyone who preaches their own doctrine -- with intent - or out of ignorance --- is weak in the faith...

 

[ladylynn]

So often we have to be reminded that NO translation would be available if God did not make it available. I think it is self serving to think based on our own "smarts" we found THEE proper and ONLY translation of God's Word and call all other Bibles false or evil.

Instead we should be open to many of the translations for study. Use a Bible that we can understand (i don't speak old English so prefer not to use the KJV) but i do own and still use the KJV and did memorization from that version. As i got older i looked into reading other translations like the NIV and the NAS to add to the KJV.

Using many of them when searching out meanings seems like a very good way of learning imo. These days i prefer using my amplified Bible for the wordiness of it and how it uses language i can understand in my daily life. Finding study Bibles with reference notes and comparing with other Bibles is a good idea too. No ONE man has got it ALL and since the Holy Spirit teaches each one of us individually as we go to His Word, we can be assured He will teach us what we need to know. Thank You Lord.

 

[Reformedjason]

Every group that teaches off the wall doctrine that I have come in contact with uses a Kjv. The heresy teacher can make the Kjv say what he wants it to an the congregations will follow because they don't understand what they are reading any way. You want a name? The united Pentecostal church.

 

[LT]

Every group that teaches off the wall doctrine that I have come in contact with uses a Kjv. The heresy teacher can make the Kjv say what he wants it to an the congregations will follow because they don't understand what they are reading any way. You want a name? The united Pentecostal church.

I have seen the same tendency.
Holiness Perfection, Genetically Saved (all Christians are from the 10 lost tribes), Faith+Works for Israel but Grace for Church.
^All use KJV-only.

But also, many solid Christians simply prefer KJV, to no fault of their own.
It IS a good translation. However, it is not the only version that retains the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The NT was written in koine Greek, which is street Greek. The Bible, at least the NT, can accurately be translated into ebonics, and be closer to the original style than the KJV.
To those who hold the Scripture as "above the heads of common men", you are in danger of speaking wrongly of God.

 

[Oak]

Many KJV onlys also feel Obama is a lizard, the towers were taken down by the government and that we are in the end times.

 

[ServantStrike]

The only Nestle I'm familiar with is the chocolate company.

To be fair, the Nestle-Aland is a confusing text to track down. The early versions were Westcott and Hort heavy (despite what anyone would say to the contrary, but by early version I mean Nestle's text). Further obfuscating the issue is that there were not one but two men named Nestle, with the second Nestle being the son of the first - it was his name that was attached to the text that was merged with Aland's text. I haven't purchased later editions as I can't read Greek, but I almost want to buy them just to get a list of the textual sources used!

But, if you haven't done some reading on it, I strongly suggest it. It might give you an idea of why I still reach for the KJV instead of the NASB (And yes I do have an NASB - along with a 1984 NIV and an ESV and a HCSB, though those last two are digital versions).

The Textus Receptus that Erasmus compiled, as well as the KJV bible which is derived from it, were both translated using less stringent theories of textual criticism than later versions were translated under. The emphasis was on the divinity of Christ, and less about which Greek manuscript to favor.

More often than otherwise, those who advocate the KJV are fundamentalists who preach their own doctrines to enslave those who are weak in the faith.

....uh, do you have documented evidence of this assertion?.......or is this just your biased opinion?

It'd be hard to find documented evidence.

The KJV is still the number two bestselling translation. Not everyone who reads it is a cultist, although admittedly not everyone who reads it is vocal about it either.

I was going to go into a debate about textual criticism and publishing houses but then I said nah, forget it.


Does anyone else see some irony here? If someone makes a personal decision after research to go for the KJV, they get yelled at, but if someone simply picks a bible because it's what their pastor or some other smart person said, they get a pass.

The KJVO people are also not helping things very much. I say that being a KJV preferred individual who generally advises people to see if they can't overcome the language barrier and give it a shot, but who doesn't condemn them if they say it comes down to either reading a bible or having a pretty KJV that they won't read.

 

[phil112]

Many KJV onlys also feel Obama is a lizard, the towers were taken down by the government and that we are in the end times.

Hey! I don't believe the towers were taken down by the government!