The Letter to the Romans...

[Elin]

First Elin, thanks a bunch for posting your alternative interpretations...and sticking as close to the format as I asked. Others who see this thread can either "like" an interpretation that's posted or post their alternative.

Again, this thread was for reading of the letter and to zero-in on specifically where our differences are so we can maybe take them to a new thread and hash them out (instead of us always painting such broad strokes with each other)...so I'm going to take this reply of yours as a request for my explanation...and then if you want to debate it we can start a new thread about this passage.

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A big key to the context of Paul's letter (at least for my interpretation) is Romans 2:6-11 (which I think you may have overlooked while posting alternative interpretations).

Post #10

Romans 2:6-11 (direct greek-to-english)

6. who will give to each according to the works of him [kata ta erga autou].

7. To those that indeed with endurance in work good, glory and honor and immortality are seeking, life eternal;

8. to those however of self-interest and disobeying [apeithousi = "who disobey"] the truth, being persuaded about [peithomenois = persuaded; obeying; trusting] however - unrighteousness, wrath and anger,

9. tribulation and distress, upon every soul of man - working - evil, of Jews both first, and also Greek

10. glory however and honor, and peace to everyone doing good, to Jews both first, and to Greek

11. not indeed there is partiality with - God​

...In this passage, Paul tells us that "God is going to judge everyone according to their works", and the "disobedient" will see wrath. This passage confirms that indeed this is a matter of obedience that Paul's talking about. Paul then uses words like Righteousness and Unrighteousness through sections that follow in context of this passage and how we must be obedient. Then when we get through to Romans 3:31, we read from Paul - in no uncertain terms...

Romans 3:31 (direct greek-to-english)

Law then do we nullify through faith? Never may it be! but law we uphold [histanomen = stand; standing; establish; steadfast; I cause to stand]​

Question: Do we nullify the law?

Paul Answers: Never may it be.

"But" [a conjunction *contrasting* the thought of "nullifying the law", suggesting "instead"]

"We [collective pronoun that includes Paul & fellow believers] uphold the law".

Even in our modern language when one is said to "uphold the law" it means they're obeying it and not breaking it.

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Again, thanks for your posts Elin...if you'd like you can start a new thread about this passage and we can further analyze and debate it.

I made no comment on Ro 2:6-11 because it was correct as stated.

However, I'll take a pass on another thread,
because Paul is explaining in Ro 2:6-11 how God judged mankind before the death of Christ.

Before the death of Christ, all mankind was judged based on their obedience,
either according to God's law, or according to their own conscience.

And according to either, all mankind was condemned. That is Paul's point.

He doesn't begin dealing with the way God judges after the death of Christ until 3:21, "But, now. . ."

And in Ro 3:31, Paul is explaining that we establish the right use of the law;
i.e., we establish its standing by fixing it on the right basis.

Judaizing (Gal 2:14) attempts to fix it on the wrong basis.

And the right basis is that, although we cannot be saved by it as a covenant,
we submit to it in Christ's two commandments (Mt 22:37-40),
which are subject to the law of grace.

We don't overthrow the law, we establish it on its right basis, subordinate to the law of grace
as revealed by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

So no need for a thread, because I really have no more to say on the matter.

 

[Elin]

Con't:

Okay, misunderstanding of Paul's meaning is now coming home to roost.

Nowhere does Paul say, or imply, "it's obeying the law that makes us righteous."

That is anti-gospel.

Righteousness is justification (perfect guiltlessness, right standing before God), which is a gift of God through faith (Ro 5:17).

We are not made righteous by obeying the law, we are made righteous by faith, because Christ remitted our sin and guilt.

The faith that gives us the gift of righteousness (perfect guiltlessness, right standing before God) then obeys , whereby our character is changed in sanctification (imperfect holiness).

Justification (righteousness) does not change our character,
it simply gives us a guiltless (right) standing before God because Christ has remitted our sin and guilt.

Sanctification (imperfect holiness) through the obedience of faith changes our character.

Righteousness (perfect guiltlessness, character unchanged) is not by law keeping, it is by faith.

Sanctification (change of character, imperfect holiness) is through the obedience of faith.

So as my immediately previous post above applies here, paul is not stating that we uphold the law by being made righteous by odedience to it.

That is anti-gospel.

NT righteousness/justification is a declaration of perfect guiltlessness, right standing before God on the basis of faith only.

It is not a declaration of holiness, which is sanctification by the obedience of faith.

 

[Hoffco]

I hope you all are starting to see that all scriptures agree. Both Jesus and Paul are in agreement. It is only the
Good people who go to Heaven; Bad people go to the lake of fire. Rom.2:6-11 agrees with Jh. 5:28-29 Jesus said,"...those who have done good, to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." This is what the whole Bible teaches. "Grace to with aii those who Love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity" Eph. 6:24 Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

If one would carefully follow God's reasoning verse by verse in Romans , you would be able to correct all the error's in our favorite preachers of today. You would see how far the present Church has fallened from the truth. Please allow me to give my outline of the book of Romans. FRIST: The over all theme of Romans is how God makes SAINTS from SINNERS by Sanctification, (the radical brake with sin), frist; and then by Justification, (the forgiveness of sin) second. Then the followup work is done by Sanctification continued, the gradual process of the victorious Christian life. Hoffco

 

[Elin]

If one would carefully follow God's reasoning verse by verse in Romans , you would be able to correct all the error's in our favorite preachers of today. You would see how far the present Church has fallened from the truth. Please allow me to give my outline of the book of Romans. FRIST: The over all theme of Romans is how God makes SAINTS from SINNERS by
Sanctification, (the radical brake with sin), frist;
and then by Justification, (the forgiveness of sin) second. Then the followup work is done by Sanctification continued, the gradual process of the victorious Christian life. Hoffco

You have reversed the NT order.

We are first justified (declared perfectly guiltless, right standing before God, righteous)
as a gift (Ro 5:17) only by the gift of faith (2Pe 1:1; Php 1:29; Ro 12:3; Ac 18:27),

and are secondly sanctified through the obedience of that faith.

 

[Elin]

Con't.

Sanctification is the result of justification (righteousness), not the cause of it.

And the cause of justification (righteousness) is faith only.

Justificati0n by faith only, then sanctification through the obedience of that faith.

 

[Hoffco]

The outline of Romans is key to understanding the whole book. All the outlines I have seen, pervert the meaning of the book, as I have stated in the Theme: How God makes saints out of sinners, in a moment of time, with the new birth.
Paul begins this great book with Sanctification,which is, rightiousness imparted by the new Birth, chs. 1&2. THEN, Paul teaches Justifacation by GRACE and FAITH, chs.3-5:14. THEN, ch.5;15 -21 is a transition back to Sanctification. The key word for Sanctification is "IMPARTED" and the key word for Justification is "IMPUTED". Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Elen, PLEASE, Forget all we were taught in Bible college and seminary, LOL, not really, But; The only hint of the True order of salvation was in Berkoffs systematic Theo. class, with DR, Olsen, BUT, Drs, Callem and Linclon perverted the whole school. But, at Reformed Epis. sem. I got much more of the truth. Don't read into the Bible your own ideas. Please follow the words carefully!! Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, SORRy, I can not spell. Please follow me with my outline: (My outline is a correction, an adaptation, of THE RYRIE STUDY BIBLE, He is not faithful to the Bible.)
I. Salutation and Theme, 1:1-17, A. Introduction. vs. 1-7 [Paul, Christ Jesus, the gospel of God, power of resurrection, grace of apostleship, for the OBEDIENCE of faith, called as SAINTS, (holy ones by the power of God) ]. B. Paul's interests. vs. 8-15 C. Theme. vs. 16-17, The Gospel , God's POWER for salvation to believers, God is righteous, the righteous man LIVES by FAITH.
SO FAR, We see that God is talking of IMPARTED holiness of character, of Heart. created in the sinner by God's POWER.! Sanctification Begun in the new birth, "The calling" of God is the first concern of Paul. and God. Hoffco

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” ​

What Paul's Saying...

A few thoughts ago (in post #2) Paul said that the gospel is “grace from Christ to be obedient”. Now Paul says the gospel is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes”. So in context, the Power of God for Salvation IS the grace to be obedient...that is the power...offered to anyone who believes. And in it [in the grace to be obedient] the righteousness of God is found from faith, fulfilling scripture.


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Just noticing no self works efforts here in this scripture that the power in and for to do what is righteous comes from belief and without a doubt in the way
Jusy adding what thought I see as truth from God the Father through Christ

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 1:24-25

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. ​

What Paul's Saying...

So the unrighteous are punished for being *disobedient* (i.e. knowing the truth but not acting on it). They’re enslaved by the lusts of their flesh.


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Gave then up to free choice to choose God the creator or stay worshipping the creation that wants to be selfish, and there will be no excuse for one choice or the other for all will know God and all with conscious will know what they have chosen, no excuse

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 1:26-32

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. ​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul then goes into details of the punishment on The Unrighteous (i.e. those who are disobedient to God, knowing the truth but still choosing not to act on it and instead teaching others not to as well). God gives them over to “filthy passions” and “debased minds”...to drown in; to be consumed by them.


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So that the flesh might be destroyed, and possibly their souls saved as Paul talks about in Corinthians 3

 

[Elin]

The outline of Romans is key to understanding the whole book. All the outlines I have seen, pervert the meaning of the book, as I have stated in the Theme: How God makes saints out of sinners, in a moment of time, with the new birth.
Paul begins this great book with Sanctification, which is, rightiousness imparted by the new Birth, chs. 1&2.

You are grossly misinformed, my friend, as a simple examination of the text will clearly show.

After his introduction in 1:1-5, Paul begins this great book in 1:16-17 with

"in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last"
(not by obedience). (Ro 1:17)

Your misinformation couldn't be any clearer.

Then he moves to the unrighteousness of the Gentiles in 1:18-32,

followed by the unrighteousness of the Jews in 2:1-3:8,

concludes all mankind under sin in 3:9-20,

before returning to his subject of 1:16-17, above, in 3:21-22:

"this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not through obedience)." (Ro 3:22)

The righteousness of 3:22 is the justification of 3:24 and 3:28:

"We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from observing the law." (Ro 3:28)

Neither righteousness nor justification are by law keeping, both are by faith only.

That both are by faith, and not by law-keeping, couldn't be any clearer.

It is sanctification that is by the obedience of faith,

it is not righteousness (perfect guiltlessness, right standing), which is by faith only.

NT righteousness/justification by faith only is not NT sanctification through the obedience of that faith.

THEN, ch.5;15 -21 is a transition back to Sanctification. The key word for Sanctification is "IMPARTED" and the key word for Justification is "IMPUTED". Hoffco

You are very misinformed.

 

[Elin]

Elen, PLEASE, Forget all we were taught in Bible college and seminary, LOL, not really, But;
The only hint of the True order of salvation was in Berkoffs systematic Theo. class, with DR, Olsen, BUT, Drs, Callem and Linclon perverted the whole school. But, at Reformed Epis. sem. I got much more of the truth. Don't read into the Bible your own ideas. Please follow the words carefully!!

However, it is not hinted at in Ro 1-3, it is clearly stated,

and clearly demonstrated in the post immediately previous to this one.

You obviously misunderstood what you were taught at a Reformed seminary.

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 2:6-11

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.​

What's Paul's Saying...

Paul says God will judge everyone according to their works, and based on your works you will either receive eternal life or wrath. Anyone who does evil (i.e. does not obey the truth) will have distresses and anyone who does good (i.e. obeys the truth) will have peace. It doesn’t matter who.


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This is where works are being brought in of self, when obedience to the truth in doing what is right is brought forth by Faith in Christ the power of God, and not of self ever. For no flesh is pleasing to God outside of Christ's ever

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 2:12-13

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.​

What Paul's Saying...

In context to the previous thought (that “God will judge all by their works, no matter who”), Paul explains two groups: 1) those who sin outside of the law of God (i.e. the lawless) will die...and 2) those who sin under the law will be subject to it, because one must DO [i.e. obey] the law of God to be found righteous. So it doesn’t matter who God judges (no matter if one’s aware of God’s law vs. one not aware), all will be judged fairly.


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All works done of the flesh and not Faith in the finished work of Christ at the cross will, burn up and one will suffer loss, where as all the works of God done through the believer will not burn up
[h=3]1 Corinthians 3[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? [SUP]6 [/SUP]I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. [SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [SUP]13 [/SUP]every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; [SUP]22 [/SUP]whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; [SUP]23 [/SUP]and ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

 

[RedTent]

Con't.

Sanctification is the result of justification (righteousness), not the cause of it.

And the cause of justification (righteousness) is faith only.

Justificati0n by faith only, then sanctification through the obedience of that faith.

Faith only as you understand it is based on not knowing God's view of faith. That is shown through Abraham who did not simply have a mental agreement of faith in God, but that mental faith was enough to act on it. In God's view, faith that does not result in the ability to act is dead.

 

[Hoffco]

outline con't II. IMPARTED Righteousness needed and the Transformation of the sinner by God's powerful GRACE. 1:18-2:29. A. The condemnation of Gentiles 1:18-32. B. The condemnation of the hypocrite Jews and the salvation of the righteous ,born again, Gentiles. 2:1-29.
Here we continue to see God's sanctifing power at work in the Gentiles, but not in the hypocrite Jews.
paul states that only a born again person will be justified in ch.2:13. Hoffco

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 2:14-16

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. ​

What Paul's Saying...

(Paul continuing with the last point) when gentiles - who are not aware of God’s law - naturally obey something in God’s law (found in their hearts), *that* becomes the law Christ will judge them by on the last day, even though they may not be totally aware of God’s law...because at least to that extent they know right from wrong.


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All inside themselves Jew or not know the Laws of love and how to treat their neighbor
And man today excuse and accuses each other over their way unto another's way and in the day of Judgment my words will condemn me or excuse me.
So best to walk by the power of Faith in Christ alone where I am in the Spirit able to obey the Laws of love perfectly, god living through me to do this by me having the Faith in God's perfection, just as Christ showed us all in his walk here on earth, total dependence on Father's lead

 

[Elin]

Sanctification is the result of justification (righteousness), not the cause of it.

And the cause of justification (righteousness) is faith only.

Justificati0n by faith only, then sanctification through the obedience of that faith.

Faith only as you understand it is based on not knowing God's view of faith. That is shown through Abraham who did not simply have a mental agreement of faith in God, but that mental faith was enough to act on it. In God's view, faith that does not result in the ability to act is dead.

Agreed. I have stated the acting of obedience above.