The Letter to the Romans...

[Elin]

As I read and preach on, Jonah,Micah, Nahum, and Habakkuk I am seeing the relation of the 4 books, it is a complete story. as you said Nebuchadnezzar was a very prood man, big contrast to Habakkuk and the "just", the righteous in conduct, not in position only. , like habakkak ,who lived out his faith,, old Nebbie, got faith in the end ,by God's grace, power in his heart,.
Then, nebbie lived by faith.

I don't think so.

He issued no decree to abolish the worship of idols, nor did he let the captives go home (Da 3:29),
nor did not renounce his sins (Da 4:30) as Daniel instructed (Da 4:27),
nor did he return the sacred vessels to the Temple, which allowed them to be desecrated by Belshazzar (Da 5:2).

So he had not the words which would have acquitted him (Mt 12:37).

You must learn the dual meaning of GRACE: POWER and MERCY.

Not based on the account of Nebuchadnezzar. . .

Should you be learning the dual meanings of FAITH: SAVING and COUNTERFEIT (Mt 7:21-23)?

 

[Hoffco]

OK, you may be right on nebuchadnezzar, only time will tell for sure. The verses for "works of the law" are Rom. 2:20 NASV and Gal. 2:16. The verse on the "work of the law" is Rom 2:15. Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, you are not hearing what I am saying ,I know what true faith is, it is a committment of my whole self to Jesus, to live and die for Jesus. Now, PLEase, stop shooting from the hip, you keep shooting yourself in the foot. LOL. SMILE. stop, look and listen. I know you are very busy; so, I forgive and forget you offences. love in Christ.Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Elin, you are not hearing what I am saying, I know what true faith is,

And I know what grace is: both power to obey, and unmerited favor of God.

it is a committment of my whole self to Jesus, to live and die for Jesus.

It is likewise trusting on the finished work of Jesus on the cross to save you from God's wrath
at the final judgment,
rather than trusting on your works of obedience to save you from God's wrath at the final judgment.

Now, PLEase, stop shooting from the hip, you keep shooting yourself in the foot.

Remember, for your statement to have any merit, you must show what and how.

 

[Elin]

OK, you may be right on nebuchadnezzar, only time will tell for sure.

My interpretion is: "the works of the law" are ritual duties ,likr circumcision, these don't save; but the
"work of the law": is the conviction of our sins which the law gives us an the holy Spirit uses the law on our hard hearts to soften us to the gospel, good news,

That sounds good, but I need to know where "works of the law" and
"work of the law" are used so I may examine what Paul means by them.

The verses for "works of the law" are Rom. 2:20 NASV and Gal. 2:16.
The vers e on the "work of the law" is Rom 2:15.

Gal 2:14-16 - "I said to Peter before all. . .why do you compel the Gentiles to Judaize?
We Jews by nature, and not sinners of Gentiles--knowing that a man is not justified by works of law, except through faith (in) Jesus Christ--we also believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith (in) Christ and not by works of law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of law."

Here Paul is referring to the full requirements of the law to which the Jews were subject.

Ro 2:14-15 - "For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having law are a law to themselves; who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their consciences witnessing with;"

Here Paul is referring merely to the practices in pagan society that agreed with the law;
e.g., caring for the sick and elderly, honoring parents, condemning adultery.

He is not referring to the full requirements of the law.

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, I trust in the finished work of Christ's death,blood, and His resurrection ,and His present work of Grace in my life to save me.All that I do, is only in response to His grace and mercy. I don't trust in my works to merit eternal life; And, on the other hand, Jesus has told us If we are not walking on the holiness road, we are lost in our sins, we must live our faith, to be saved. Now, can you interpret the Bible any better than this? Faith is dead without works.! Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, I can not accept your definitions ; because we are required by both Old and New testament to be lawful person if we want to be saved. To the evil, lawless person Jesus will say, "depart from me you workers of inqity, I never know,(loved) you." Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Elin, I trust in the finished work of Christ's death,blood, and His resurrection ,and His present work of Grace in my life to save me.All that I do, is only in response to His grace and mercy. I don't trust in my works to merit eternal life; And, on the other hand, Jesus has told us If we are not walking on the holiness road, we are lost in our sins, we must live our faith, to be saved.

To be more precise, we must have true faith to be saved,

and true faith obeys.

But it is not the works of obedience that saves us from the wrath of God on our sin (Ro 5:9).

It is through faith in Jesus Christ, that our sin is forgiven (taken away) and we are, thereby, saved
from the wrath of God on our sin.

However, the faith that saves, will always manifest itself in works of obedience.
If it does not, it is not saving faith, it is counterfeit faith, and we are not saved by it (Mt 7:21-23).

But it is through faith that our sin is taken away and we are saved
from the wrath of God on our sin,

it is not by works of obedience that our sin is taken away and we are saved
from the wrath of God on our sin.

Now can you interpret the Bible any better than this? Faith is dead without works!

Well, that is not interpretation, that is the text itself.

Interpretation of the text, in the light of the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days
(Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers, would be:

Faith that does not obey is not true faith, but counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23).

And only true faith saves.

 

[Elin]

Elin, I can not accept your definitions ;

They are not my definitions, they are the definitions of the NT word of God.

because we are required by both Old and New testament to be lawful person if we want to be saved. To the evil, lawless person Jesus will say, "depart from me you workers of inqity, I never know,(loved) you."

Because their faith was proven to be counterfeit by their disobedience (iniquity).

Counterfeit faith does not save, only true faith saves

from the wrath of God on our sin, by forgiving our sin.

 

[Elin]

Repeat, with added PS:

Elin, I can not accept your definitions ;

They are not my definitions, they are the definitions of the NT word of God.

because we are required by both Old and New testament to be lawful person if we want to be saved. To the evil, lawless person Jesus will say, "depart from me you workers of inqity, I never know,(loved) you."

Because their faith was proven to be counterfeit by their disobedience (iniquity).

Counterfeit faith does not save, only true faith saves

from the wrath of God on our sin, by forgiving our sin.
_________________________

What is sinking Judaizers and Messianics is their failure to understand that

salvation is the forgiveness of sin.

We can't do anything to get forgiveness of sin (salvation),

it was purchased by Jesus on the cross, and is accessed only by faith.

That is the gospel of Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18, 36).

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, post #169 is good. post #170 is twisted, bad. Remember your words counterfiet faith which does not obey does not save from the wrath of God. I rest my case ,no more will I argue with you. Your are acting "like" a swine. Sorry ,I am wasteing my time. when you want to learn, you may post me. Love in Christ Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Elin, post #169 is good. post #170 is twisted, bad. Remember your words
counterfiet faith which does not obey does not save from the wrath of God.

Thanks for the opportunity to spell out the NT gospel in Jesus Christ.

1) From what are we saved?

We are saved from the justice and wrath of God on our sin and guilt (Ro 5:9).

2) How are we saved from the justice and wrath of God on our sin and guilt?

We are saved from God's justice and wrath on our sin and guilt by the taking away of our sin,
which removes our guilt.

3) How is our sin taken away and our guilt removed?

Our sin is taken away and our guilt is removed by the payment of its penalty.

4) How is the penalty paid?

God provided payment of the penalty by the atoning sacrifice of his Son (Ro3:25).

5) To whose sin is the payment of the penalty applied?

The payment of the penalty is applied to the sin of those who believe in Christ Jesus
(Jn 3:18, 36).

That is the NT gospel in Jesus Christ.

 

[Hoffco]

To keep our context flowing ,I will post my next section of my interpretive outline.
V, God is righteous and just, merciful, wrathful, sovereign, in all history, Chs, 9,10 &11.
A. Israel's past, up to Paul's time. Ch.9
B. Israel's present, Paul's day. Ch.10
C. Israel's future after paul up to the of the resurrection of all the dead, and for all this present age. and the kingdom of Jesus and to the New heavens and the new earth, to eternal life.
NOTE: This history listen is according to God''s spiritual and physical plans for us and Israel Sooo, the time frame is all,fluid; it goes forward then back, then forward again. I will not do Yahshua's interpretating job. Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Just restudying the WORK of the law and the WORKS of the law. Very enlightening. I was in Gal 3:19 -29; The purpose of the law. the tutor to bring us to Christ.v.24 Until "THE FAITH" v.23. came. What FAITH?, FAITH in Christ. Abraham have faith in God ,Justified by faith, faith in God's mercy, pictured in the sacrifice of the lamb. Not Christ. SOOOO, they had faith , but not the FAITH we have in CHRIST. GAL. 3:10-11, "the works of the law are...ALL things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." ( moral and ceremonial and ordinances ) Gal. 4:10 "days and months and seasons and years" NOW, what laws are left for us to keep?. ONLY, The New Cov. laws, in Christ. Note , Gal. 2:14 "...why do you compel Gentiles to judaize?" Marshell's Gk./Eng. interlinear Love to all Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Just restudying the WORK of the law and the WORKS of the law. Very enlightening. I was in Gal 3:19 -29; The purpose of the law. the tutor to bring us to Christ.v.24 Until "THE FAITH" v.23. came. What FAITH?, FAITH in Christ. Abraham have faith in God ,Justified by faith, faith in God's mercy, pictured in the sacrifice of the lamb.

Read it again.

Abraham's faith was in God's promise that his seed would be as numerous as the stars (Ge 15:5-6).

Not Christ. SOOOO, they had faith , but not the FAITH we have in CHRIST.

They had faith in God's promises (Christ).

GAL. 3:10-11, "the works of the law are...ALL things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." ( moral and ceremonial and ordinances ) Gal. 4:10 "days and months and seasons and years" NOW, what laws are left for us to keep?. ONLY, The New Cov. laws, in Christ. Note , Gal. 2:14 "...why do you compel Gentiles to judaize?" Marshell's Gk./Eng. interlinear

Agreed, and that would be the NT commands.

 

[Yahshua]

To brother Yahshua, WE are waiting, actively, for your return to lead us in this great and much needed study, Pray you are well. love in Christ. God knew, Elin and I needed this study, as is proven by the providence of God our Father in the timing of His will for us, to interreact. God bless us all! Bro. Hoffco

My Apologies Hoffco...yes I am well. The work week has been unforgiving and apart from quick replies on posts I wasn't able to dedicate the time i wanted, but I'll continue where we all left off. Thanks to you guys (and gals) for keeping the thread alive.

 

[Yahshua]

Paul then begins an analysis of Abraham as an example of his previous point (post #37: Justification by faith) and questions whether Abraham's justification was because of his actions (i.e. "works") or his faith. In other words, Paul is asking what was the *source* of Abraham's righteousness...and notes that scripture says it was Abraham's belief (faith).

Romans 4:4-8

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”​

What Paul's Saying...

Continuing with the concept of work (note: this is not talking about "The Law's works/actions" [i.e. "works of the law" (post #35)] but about "works/actions" in general); Paul explains how a person's wages isn't a gift but what's owed to him. Then switching to Justification from God; Paul says it's through belief which is independent from any action to *earn* it [the justification], proving why it's a gift for God.

In context to Paul's example of Abraham; there were two things factually attributed to Abraham by Paul's question: Abraham's actions/works, and his faith. But Paul explains that the *source* of Abraham justification was his faith.


If you agree with this interpretation, “like”.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.

 

[Yahshua]

Continuing with the concept of work (note: this is not talking about "The Law's works/actions" [i.e. "works of the law" (post #35)] but about "works/actions" in general); Paul explains how a person's wages isn't a gift but what's owed to him. Then switching to Justification from God; Paul says it's through belief which is independent from any action to *earn* it [the justification], proving why it's a gift for God.

In context to Paul's example of Abraham; there were two things factually attributed to Abraham by Paul's question: Abraham's actions/works, and his faith. But Paul explains that the *source* of Abraham justification was his faith.

Romans 4:9-12

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul asks (I feel) one of the most important questions of his letter, which reveals the relationship between faith and "works" (i.e. actions). Paul says faith is counted as righteousness 1st...but THEN one's actions are the *seal of that righteousness*. The word "seal" used in this context means "confirmation"; proof or verification.

From Paul's example, God commanded Abraham to circumcise, and Abraham obeyed. But - following Paul's explanation here - it was Abraham's faith that counted him as righteous, and that righteousness was confirmed in Abraham's action/work of circumcising. Faith is counted as righteousness...but that righteousness must be sealed/confirmed by the action/work of obeying God (Post#39). This is called "walking in the footsteps of faith".


If you agree with this interpretation, “like”.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.

 

[Elin]

Romans 4:1-3

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul then begins an analysis of Abraham as an example of his previous point (post #37: Justification by faith) and questions whether Abraham's justification was because of his actions (i.e. "works") or his faith. In other words, Paul is asking what was the *source* of Abraham's righteousness...and notes that scripture says it was Abraham's belief (faith).


If you agree with this interpretation, “like”.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.

As stated, like.

 

[Elin]

Romans 4:4-8

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”​

What Paul's Saying...

Continuing with the concept of work (note: this is not talking about "The Law's works/actions" [i.e. "works of the law" (post #35)] but about "works/actions" in general); Paul explains how a person's wages isn't a gift but what's owed to him. Then switching to Justification from God; Paul says it's through belief which is independent from any action to *earn* it [the justification], proving why it's a gift for God.

In context to Paul's example of Abraham; there were two things factually attributed to Abraham by Paul's question: Abraham's actions/works, and his faith. But Paul explains that the *source* of Abraham justification was his faith.


If you agree with this interpretation, “like”.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.

Alternative.

1) Paul is not "switching to justification from God."

He is showing that Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness,

while works earn their righteousness,

so since Abraham' righteousness was credited, it was not earned and, therefore, was not by works.

2) He also shows that righteousness is forgiveness of sin, not works of obedience.