Who Were The Jusaizers? Are You One? Do You Know Anybody That Is?

[Elin]

If it doesn't matter to you that Christ followed the Law of Yahweh because he hadn't died yet, then does it matter to you that he went around for over a month hanging out with people in a glorified resurrected body? Think he broke any laws during that time? I think probably as the author of the law, and the spirit of the prophets, he would not only follow them perfectly, but would want his brothers (who he PURCHASED) to obey they laws as he requested. When he said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments," what is your opinion of what he meant by that? What commandments do you think you aught to follow?

I'm not trying to be rude, it's a serious question, and I'm very curious as to what you think on the matter.

To whom is this addressed?

Use the "Reply With Quote" button so whom you are addressing will be evident.

I believe it is evident.

Then perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me.

 

[Elin]

Elin, seriously...what laws do you want or not want to follow. Be specific, please.
Which laws are people trying to get you to add?

I don't want to dismiss your position, I want to understand it, because I love you in Christ.

You are the sweetest person. . .a kitten, indeed.

The Jewish customs I see advocated the most are the food laws.

 

[Elin]

You mean like the Ten Commandments?

Like the food laws.

 

[Elin]

OK, please explain then how the Laws of Almighty God found in Exodus 20 are "Jewish customs".

Explain how the food laws are not.

 

[RedTent]

Like the food laws.

People have explained the food laws to you over and over, and you post things about them that are without any understanding of what you are told about them, and yet you ask for yet another explanation of the food laws. Why not simply go to scripture.

First study the foods laws and learn what God had in mind when He gave the food laws. Now, go to everything God gave as an explanation of what Christ was to come to make complete and perfect, like how God used blood for atonement, how God used the temple. Now go to Christ to see how Christ took what had been explained and made it perfect. These things were given to the Jews so they could lead the world in understanding, Christ fulfilled them, made complete, kept them but rounded them out, whatever words you need to use to understand.

Then go to Acts and see how all this was to now go out to the gentiles, and follow each thing it says about what and how it was to be presented to the gentiles.

NOW, you will have an understanding of the food laws.

 

[Grandpa]

I think a lot of the problem, is with Shabbat. People don't know how it effects their worship on Sundays, should they change the worship time of their assembly, should they stop working on Saturdays, and with all the goofy regulations that the Rabbi's put out there about should or should not be done, people just recoil from it.

Also, the fact that modern Judaism is just a collection of Rabbinical teachings is very important, because a Judaizer would want people to follow the Rabbinical Law (which can't be done). Whereas someone who exhorts someone to follow the laws of God, is not a Judaizer, because Judaism transgresses the law of God by their traditions. Lets call things for what they are.

Judaism today is not what it claims to be, if it were, they would all love Jesus. Therefore, a Judaizer could more accurately be called a 'power and control freak', they don't want you to follow Judaism, they are not following Judaism, there is no such thing anymore and it is the enemy, who wants you to forfeit, because it is the only way to lose a battle that was already won for us.

So now we have a world where nothing is what it seems to be or claims to be, but we have to pretend it is because otherwise people freak out so bad that there's no way to get anything done. If you don't want to follow the laws, that's fine. When Jesus comes with a rod of iron, maybe you will repent, until then I am wasting my time, because nothing I can say will make a difference if you aren't listening. If you don't want knowledge, nobody can force it on you. I don't blame you.... in years past, I would have taken slavery over beheading too.

Have you been perfect before God according to the Law?

Matthew 5:48 [SUP] [/SUP]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I wasn't able to. I tried really, really hard to be perfect before God according to the Law, according to His 10 Commandments. The way the Lord Jesus magnifies them in Matt 5.

So, because I am not able to be perfect by working at the law, what is the solution? Is there one, or am I doomed?

Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

That's the solution for those who labour and are heavy laden and cannot be perfect before God according to the law. The Lord Jesus came for sinners not for those who are righteous.

So how does this work? How does coming to Jesus cause us to stop working at the law and cause us to rest?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

What fruit?

Galatians 5:22-23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So when a person comes to Christ, and ceases from their works, this fruit is caused to grow in their lives. How? By faith.

If a person goes back to the law and their own works they are turning their backs on this Grace, on the True Way.

Galatians 5:4-6

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

A christian doesn't turn back to the law to attempt to please God. The flesh can't do it. A christian turns to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith and expects to fulfill the law not by what he/she does but by what the Lord Jesus Christ does in them.

That's rest. That's Shabbat. That's Shalom.

Those who would attempt to turn christians back to the law are the same as the pharisees described in acts 15:5.

Acts 15:10 [SUP] [/SUP]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

 

[RedTent]

Have you been perfect before God according to the Law?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I wasn't able to. I tried really, really hard to be perfect before God according to the Law, according to His 10 Commandments. The way the Lord Jesus magnifies them in Matt 5.

So, because I am not able to be perfect by working at the law, what is the solution? Is there one, or am I doomed?

Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

That's the solution for those who labour and are heavy laden and cannot be perfect before God according to the law. The Lord Jesus came for sinners not for those who are righteous.

So how does this work? How does coming to Jesus cause us to stop working at the law and cause us to rest?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

What fruit?

Galatians 5:22-23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So when a person comes to Christ, and ceases from their works, this fruit is caused to grow in their lives. How? By faith.

If a person goes back to the law and their own works they are turning their backs on this Grace, on the True Way.

Galatians 5:4-6

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

A christian doesn't turn back to the law to attempt to please God. The flesh can't do it. A christian turns to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith and expects to fulfill the law not by what he/she does but by what the Lord Jesus Christ does in them.

That's rest. That's Shabbat. That's Shalom.

Those who would attempt to turn christians back to the law are the same as the pharisees described in acts 15:5.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

People who preach that the law isn't of God, the law isn't holy, the law isn't to be listened to, always, always use this as a reason to not follow Christ in regard to law. It is not right, and yet they are using what is the most important for us to learn about God to preach against God!

It is the very same tactic that Satan used when he tempted Christ when Christ spent the forty days in the desert. Satan used scripture truths to tempt Christ into what wasn't truth.

Galatians is also used in this way. It is a book explaining the rituals used to bless and help the Hebrews, rituals that would not bless and help the gentiles. This truth is taken to such an extreme by those against God, that it becomes something to be used against God, not for Him.

 

[Grandpa]

People who preach that the law isn't of God, the law isn't holy, the law isn't to be listened to, always, always use this as a reason to not follow Christ in regard to law. It is not right, and yet they are using what is the most important for us to learn about God to preach against God!

It is the very same tactic that Satan used when he tempted Christ when Christ spent the forty days in the desert. Satan used scripture truths to tempt Christ into what wasn't truth.

Galatians is also used in this way. It is a book explaining the rituals used to bless and help the Hebrews, rituals that would not bless and help the gentiles. This truth is taken to such an extreme by those against God, that it becomes something to be used against God, not for Him.

Acts 15:5-11
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.[SUP]10 [/SUP] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Galatians 3:24-25

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Once you find out that you can't be perfect before God by your rituals or by your obedience to the law what are you going to do? Once you find out that your rituals aren't what pleases God where will you go? Why do you go back to the weak and beggarly elements and attempt to teach others that that's where their blessing is?

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

 

[Elin]

People have explained the food laws to you over and over, and you post things about them that are without any understanding of what you are told about them, and yet
you ask for yet another explanation of the food laws. Why not simply go to scripture.

You must be misunderstanding me.

I am asking for no explanation of the food laws.

I have a clear understanding of the food laws from the NT,
in 1Tim 4:3-5; Ro 14:14, 17, 20; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; Heb 9:10; Col 2:16-17; Mk 7:19.

 

[RedTent]

Once you find out that you can't be perfect before God by your rituals or by your obedience to the law what are you going to do? Once you find out that your rituals aren't what pleases God where will you go? Why do you go back to the weak and beggarly elements and attempt to teach others that that's where their blessing is?
?

I do have some rituals I personally use, and the idea that I do that to accomplish what God tells me I must accomplish is foolish talk. What is done physically is not to take place of the spiritual obedience, everyone but you seems to know that, for you keep bringing it up. When scripture teaches about rituals and scripture is of God, I think that saying it is scriptural to talk about them is not weak and beggarly teaching. I agree that being strong in Christ means we don't need any rituals to help us with our obedience. Our blessings are in Christ, it is only you who say the blessings are in the rituals. No one else suggests such a thing.

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

Bless you Grandpa, but to take people who were already circumcised in their heart, and have them convert to a different covenant relationship, by going through a ritual done by Jewish religious authority, is what it means to put another yoke on their neck.

Rabbi's wanted to scare people by saying they had to go through this ritual or they weren't really saved, so that they could keep making money. They were being phased out and they knew it.

I am following the ten commandments perfectly in this moment by the grace of God. To the best I can, I am loving him with all my heart, all my soul, and all my strength. I'm loving my neighbors and you guys too. I'm not killing anyone, I'm not stealing, coveting, or worshiping idols. Shabbat was a couple days ago, I haven't taken the name of the Lord in vain lately, and I don't have a husband nor do I engage in any of the behaviors that I did when I was dead in my trespasses. I haven't eaten any bottom feeders. I love my parents and try my best to respect them, even though I'm 30 it's about an attitude of obedience. It's not that I have to work to please God, you're absolutely correct that it isn't possible to have peace that way. I obey because I love God, and I do fall, but I repent and he gets me back on the right path. I know the perfection we have when we are in the spirit can be broken when we stumble, but it's not irreparable, we just reach out to Jesus and he will deliver us if it is in his will, and if it's not he will stay with us through our tribulations.

I'm sorry to anyone that has yet to understand the spirit of the law. If I were looking at it as a bunch of hoops to jump through, I would have the same reaction. The law is a tool in the hand of Christ to strip away my old man, and replace the ick with holiness. I'm going to obey, and encourage others to, and I'm always willing to discuss and explain.

I just don't understand how well meaning, intelligent people get upset to the point where they don't want me to talk about the Sabbath, or the feasts. Why in the world is someone a judaizer according to a new definition just for cc because they want to discus passages of scripture in the Bible study forum where God talks about feasts that he prescribed. Saying things like, "you can talk about the feasts as long as you don't suggest I do them". Or just bombing the thread with post after post of crap just to deter intelligent conversation. I'm not going to get mad, but I wont kowtow to it either.

Unless someone wants you to convert, you shouldn't be upset, we are adults, we should be able to discuss things rationally. I find that in the past when I've been offended by people talking about the law, it was usually because I had backslidden and didn't want to admit it to myself. God knows we are not perfect, we are to obey to the best of our abilities, and he gives the bit needed for perfection. Being unable to follow one of the law isn't a valid reason to throw out the whole thing and tell others to go against the law. I seem to remember Jesus talking about those who would break the law and teach others to do the same. It's a deception. Satan is twisting scripture and you can overcome him by the blood of Christ.

 

[Karraster]

Bravo Kitten bravo!!

 

[secularhermit]

I wish I were Jew...

Joh_4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews.

 

[Elin]

I wish I were Jew...

Joh_4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews.

In context, Jesus was saying that the Christ would come from the Jews, not the Samaritans.

 

[Grandpa]

Bless you Grandpa, but to take people who were already circumcised in their heart, and have them convert to a different covenant relationship, by going through a ritual done by Jewish religious authority, is what it means to put another yoke on their neck. .

Galatians 3:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

That's what you want it to mean. But that's not what is meant by the yoke that neither the fathers nor they were able to bear. Circumcision of the flesh is not a heavy burden or a hard yoke. Keeping the law is the yoke that neither the fathers nor they were able to bear.

If they could do it then they wouldn't need Jesus. They would just be perfect according to the law. We never stop needing Jesus.

Unless someone wants you to convert, you shouldn't be upset, we are adults, we should be able to discuss things rationally. I find that in the past when I've been offended by people talking about the law, it was usually because I had backslidden and didn't want to admit it to myself. God knows we are not perfect, we are to obey to the best of our abilities, and he gives the bit needed for perfection. Being unable to follow one of the law isn't a valid reason to throw out the whole thing and tell others to go against the law. I seem to remember Jesus talking about those who would break the law and teach others to do the same. It's a deception. Satan is twisting scripture and you can overcome him by the blood of Christ.

That's not what Matthew 5 says. Matthew 5 doesn't say obey to the best of your abilities. Matthew 5 says be perfect. That is what the law always says.

Just because Christians aren't under the law doesn't mean they are teaching people to break the law. There is only one way to not break the law and that is by the spirit. The only way to walk according to the spirit is to abide in Christ.

We can't obey the law perfectly by our own working and obedience. The only one that could do that is the Lord Jesus. Every single bit of any righteousness we have is all because Jesus. None of it is because you are a good law keeper or expertly obedient.

 

[Hizikyah]

The Spirit and the Law are in agreement, walking in the Spirit is following the Law. If one is breaking the Law of Yahweh they are not walking in the Spirit. People create this made up "spirit walking" in which they go against everything Yahweh Instructs.

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

But Grandpa, I died, and my life is hid with Christ on high. If to live is Christ, then I shouldn't have a problem obeying the commands, because I should be in the Spirit when it's his will, and when I'm not in the Spirit, I try not to kill any one =)

I don't need to do each one perfectly, I have to obey the Spirit of the law. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Our groom, Jesus, doesn't wanna see garbage when he goes down to his temple. Pigs eat and root in feces.

Tell me this, do you guys who disagree with keeping the law follow the rules set by Paul in the NT? Paul encourages us to keep our temples clean too.

 

[secularhermit]

In context, Jesus was saying that the Christ would come from the Jews, not the Samaritans.

Agreed! ("the Christ would come from the Jews"), but there´s something more I won´t tell (and HE can tell you).

That has to do with worshipping, by the way.

 

[RedTent]

Grandpa: Just because Christians aren't under the law doesn't mean they are teaching people to break the law. There is only one way to not break the law and that is by the spirit. The only way to walk according to the spirit is to abide in Christ.

We can't obey the law perfectly by our own working and obedience. The only one that could do that is the Lord Jesus. Every single bit of any righteousness we have is all because Jesus. None of it is because you are a good law keeper or expertly obedient.

Grandpa, I hear your understanding of needing the spirit of Christ to obey the law, you understand the need for Christ perfectly. What you are leaving out is the need for the word of God. You leave out the need for discipline. You leave out the need for scripture. Without that we can have a church that Hollywood and its standards run, for we can say that they have the spirit of Christ. When you teach that putting on Christ, that the guidance of the Holy Spirit is all there is, and then don't teach scripture, it is a teaching that makes breaking the law in some cases OK unless the person lives in a perfect world and our world is not perfect.

All of what you say is so very correct, it is scripture. It is just that there are other scriptures that apply, and when you leave those vital things out the entire teaching is ruined.

The excuse you give that you can't obey law perfectly is no excuse at all. God sent Christ because you couldn't obey it perfectly. There is nothing to indicate that God wants us to give up on all law because we can't do it perfectly.

 

[john832]

Explain how the food laws are not.

Well, let's see...

Gen 7:2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;

Here we see that clean and unclean were well known at least 1000 years before the first Israelite ever set foot on earth. Noah knew about clean and unclean, God did not have to explain it to him. So, how then is this classified as a "Jewish custom"?