The Letter to the Romans...

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Oct 31, 2011
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To RedTent, do you know where the Church is that you have as your picture? It look exactly like the north Chester Baptist church in Omsteadville New York. I lived inChestertown, for most of my life. Love to all, Hoffco
It is in Grass Valley, Oregon. They are trying to get money together to restore it. It is in the middle of miles and miles of wheat fields and rolling prairie, most of the people in Grass Valley have raised cattle and wheat on that land, the church simply rings with the story of all their lives. It is 100 years old.

The day we were there, an old old cow pony and a goat were standing nearby, dozing. We went exploring the town and talking to anyone who would talk to us for several hours, then came back to the old church. Neither the goat or the horse had moved.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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The purpose of the law was not to save us but to show us how inadequate we are and to point us to Yeshua, who did fulfill it.
We are led by the Ruach Elohim, Karraster, free of the Law.
Anytime someone says the purpose of the law is -----whatever-----and they give just one purpose of the law, they are limiting God. The longest psalm in the bible, the 119th, lists some things the law is. I do agree, the law is not to save us. It is for the saved. Also, God not only saves us, God does many things. He loves us, takes care of us, created us, and it is only sin or the breaking of the law that keeps this world from being one of abundance, contentment, freedom, joy, and all good.
 
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Karraster

Guest
[h=3]Romans 7[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)

Paul refers to new believers as well as his kinsmen as brethren, and specifically addresses this portion to the kinsmen. Again, if you do not know Torah(the law) Paul's message will not shine it's truth for you.


how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Paul, by using this an example of a widow and remarriage, appeals to a legal principle from Torah. He takes up the point made in 6:14 about "not being under law but under grace," to explain how those trusting in Yahshua are free from the law's condemnation (NOT "free from obeying God's Torah"). Everything Paul has said previously in this letter, particularly verses 2:13; 3:19-26; 3:31; 4:14; 5:20, 6:2-11, (as well as what he follows up with in 7:5-6 and chapter 8), must be kept in mind when studying this section.

Torah does not represent the husband (and thus it "dies," as some falsely teach). Rather, Torah represents the legal framework which institutes the marriage. Paul explains that the woman is legally bound to her husband as long as he is alive. When he dies, this is no longer true and she is not subject to the penalties of Torah, should she remarry.

Death in this verse is regarded in a positive light, as we are dying to something bad. When we "die to sin," by trusting in God/Messiah, we are dying to the judgment and condemnation of God's holy Torah, that shows us that we cannot on our own, meet His standards. Never meant to say we are dead to Torah! For how then should we live?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

With this Pharisaic "legal argument," Paul is saying that when a man becomes "dead to the Law," he "dies to sin" (by placing his trust in God's provision for salvation) He thus "removes himself from the judgement of Torah," and is no longer under its accusation and judgment. That man is now free to obey God by following His Torah


[SUP]7 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

If we disregard Torah, we do not know what sin is or how to please God. But also, we need Messiah in us to help us stay on that narrow path.


[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Only the spiritual man can follow Torah and delight in it. The carnal man does not want Torah, nor can he obey it.
 

GregoryC

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2014
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Have you not heard of the Spirit Karraster? Gal 5:18
 

GregoryC

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2014
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Romans 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law but under grace.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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Romans 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law but under grace.
Right!! If we were under the law for salvation we would be required to obey it perfectly, to be sort of Gods. We are under grace for salvation, not law. The way to use God's power to save is to repent of our sins and accept that through Christ we are completely cleansed of them. We are cleansed through grace. Then we put on Christ, and reject sin. We learn to be able to judge sin though the Holy Spirit and scripture giving the words of God explaining law.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Romans is the book that says. the only thing you can do is trust and believe in the work of the cross band if your faith is placed in what you do, then you have missed the mark. Because what I want do I do not and what I want not to do that I do. Oh wretched man that I am. Thank God for the cross.
 
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Karraster

Guest
Romans is the book that says. the only thing you can do is trust and believe in the work of the cross band if your faith is placed in what you do, then you have missed the mark. Because what I want do I do not and what I want not to do that I do. Oh wretched man that I am. Thank God for the cross.
Paul followed the law, as he also said what you refer to. Being a babe in Christ, or mature in Christ. Learn all Messiah taught, for surely you know Jesus said to obey Him, not just believe. Surely you know even devils believe.

Furthermore, I want to get the truth of what Paul was saying, not endless back and forth with non scriptural "feelings" anyone might have.

I was hoping someone had something to say in line with what Paul taught, not taken out of context verses here and there.
 

GregoryC

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2014
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There are many "spirits". Which one are you referring to? The one that says disobey God?
It's always the same with the children in bondage. They assume the children of promise are libertines and lawbreakers.

You preach a different gospel Karraster.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Paul followed the law, as he also said what you refer to. Being a babe in Christ, or mature in Christ. Learn all Messiah taught, for surely you know Jesus said to obey Him, not just believe. Surely you know even devils believe.

Furthermore, I want to get the truth of what Paul was saying, not endless back and forth with non scriptural "feelings" anyone might have.

I was hoping someone had something to say in line with what Paul taught, not taken out of context verses here and there.
If you will look closer,Saul was educated in the law and in line to be the High Preist. Educated at the university of Taurus and then taught at the feet of Gamiel a highly respected teacher of the law. But, when Saul became Paul. He said I counted it as naught.
 
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Karraster

Guest
Everyone follows some law. If they say they don't, I'd like to know what country they are in.

There is a law of slavemasters. I call that kind, government.

Men must learn to want to follow God's law, without fear of a whip on their back. Follow the law because they are free, free to follow it or not. When they have learned that God's law is love and protection, from our Creator, and want to please Him, they will be free indeed. Until then, they are still slaves.

Some toss out the Sabbath. And then there are those who toss it all out. God does not change, nor does His law. Messiah obeyed God's law, and showed us how to separate it from what man had added.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
If you will look closer,Saul was educated in the law and in line to be the High Preist. Educated at the university of Taurus and then taught at the feet of Gamiel a highly respected teacher of the law. But, when Saul became Paul. He said I counted it as naught.
He counted it as dung, because of relying on himself to do correctly, when the way is to trust in Messiah in us.
 

GregoryC

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2014
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Everyone follows some law. If they say they don't, I'd like to know what country they are in.

There is a law of slavemasters. I call that kind, government.

Men must learn to want to follow God's law, without fear of a whip on their back. Follow the law because they are free, free to follow it or not. When they have learned that God's law is love and protection, from our Creator, and want to please Him, they will be free indeed. Until then, they are still slaves.

Some toss out the Sabbath. And then there are those who toss it all out. God does not change, nor does His law. Messiah obeyed God's law, and showed us how to separate it from what man had added.
Like I said, you preach a different gospel which is not good news at all but bondage.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Look up the vow Paul took, when he shaved his head. That alone proves he was following Torah. Look up where he said he must by all means keep the feast.
 
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Karraster

Guest
Like I said, you preach a different gospel which is not good news at all but bondage.
Whatever G. You are free to bow out. It's obvious you have no knowledge of Romans.
 
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Kerry

Guest
The law of the Spirit, wait that's in Romans also.
 

GregoryC

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2014
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Romans 8:32 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Led by the Spirit of Christ, therfore free from the law of sin and death which some love to hold on to.
 
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Kerry

Guest
And the Spirit only operates in the parameters of the cross. Some of yall are getting it.