The Letter to the Romans...

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K

Karraster

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[h=3]1 Peter 1:15-17[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
[SUP]16[/SUP]Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
 

GregoryC

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2014
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What is the law of liberty? You are either bound to God's Law, or you are bound to sin. Bound to God's law is liberty, and free from sin and wickedness.
Now this is very telling Karraster.
2 Cor 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
 

GregoryC

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Feb 5, 2014
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The Spirit of the Lord Is the HOLY SPIRIT.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Now this is very telling Karraster.
2 Cor 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The law of Liberty is all through the Bible! I love it!
 
K

Karraster

Guest
The Spirit of the Lord Is the HOLY SPIRIT.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. [SUP]16 [/SUP]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.



Understanding is better achieved when looking at more than a snippet.:) For surely the part you quoted did not give full meaning, if you walk in the Spirit, you won't fulfil the lust of the flesh, which is enmity to the Spirit.

There are more than just 1 kind of spirit, for there are evil spirits as well. Better to read all the word, for what prophet a man to gain the world and lose his soul?
 
K

Karraster

Guest

  • [*]the mind set on the flesh is unable to please God, because it is …
    [*]not subject to the Torah("Subject" = hupotasso [Strong's 5293], meaning "to be under obedience," or "to submit oneself unto.")
    this teaches that;


    • those led by the spirit, wishing to please God ...
    • are to submit themselves to obeying the TorahRemember God's comments in Deuteronomy about "loving Him" meaning to obey His Torah.

      Also, a comparison can be made between;

      • the hostility between the spirit of truth (God's Torah) and the spirit of perversity (the "false torah") found within the individual (as Paul spoke of in chapter 7)
      • a similar hostility between Israel and the nations (i.e., the "enmity" spoken of in Ephesians 2)
      (Interestingly, we are seeing another type of hostility involving Torah today -- a hostility emerging between followers of Yahshua and His Torah and those who follow an anti-Torah "Greek Jesus.") I certainly do not say it is wrong to call Him Jesus, merely that the version of Him rebelling against Father represents a false gospel, thus "Greek Jesus".

      The truth will set you free, and the truth is Messiah/ Jesus/ Yahshua/Son of God....however you feel comfortable identifying our Salvation, was not a rebel against His Father. Messiah laid the plumb line between the Word of God and what man had added to the word. Messiah kept Torah, and taught us to as well.

      [h=3]John 14:15[/h]New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      [SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

      A "feel good" tickling the ear "sweet baby Jesus in a manger" stories is not the true Gospel, and represents Jesus falsely. He is the King of kings, the Lord of lords, and when He comes back to rule and reign it will be a day as not seen before, and there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, because of refusing to know our Messiah as He really is. He will rule with a rod of iron, every knee will bend, and all will bow down and serve Him as He commands, as He deserves to be worshiped and adored!



 
K

Karraster

Guest
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.



How are we to know what the things of the flesh are, and what the things of the Spirit are? At the time this letter was written, the one source to know the will of God for our lives - the Tenakh (Torah, Prophets, Writings). This remains true today. The writings of the "New Testament," though "divinely inspired," do not contradict what God established with His Torah (Matthew 5:17-21; Romans 3:31, etc.).



Yahshua is the reconciliation that solves the dilemma of the curse of breaking God's law, for the individual as well as between Jew and gentile. The Torah’s requirement is fulfilled by Yahshua (the Lord our righteousness - Jeremiah 23:6, Romans 3:21) who took upon himself the curse (of violating the Torah’s commandments - Galatians 3:13-14). In their faithfulness, and within the Torah-based faith of Israel, Jews and gentiles are "built together into a dwelling of God in the spirit" (Ephesians 2:22).

Messiah had to keep Torah in order to fulfill prophecy, to be a perfect Lamb without spot or blemish, as the price for sin that we deserved ourselves, yet while we were sinners, He laid down His life for us.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
6 For to be carnally minded is death;

Perhaps we should pause here, and let that soak in. ...why is carnally minded=death?


Here's Paul's answer..

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God

Gasp!! What???

So now we have the definition from Paul, what is carnally minded..not subject to the Law of God.
Hmm, maybe we should read our Bibles and not depend on men to teach us. I don't hear this verse preached very much. Do you?


This is probably one of the least "preached on" verses in the "New Testament," as its clear message is that anyone claiming to follow Yahshua in truth, is to submit himself to learning and obeying God's Torah.

As discussed, we are not subject to the "curse" of the Torah (its condemnation), but as "sons of God," we are called to learn and obey the Father's instruction (His Torah). Note that this was the decree for gentiles as found in Acts 15. They were given several basic essential Torah commands to allow for fellowship with Jews who followed Yahshua/Jesus, with the intent that they would learn more when attending the synagogues where Moses (Torah) was preached (Acts 15:21).
 
K

Karraster

Guest
9 Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ



The "Spirit of Messiah" is equivalent to the "Torah of Messiah." The two are inseparable. Therefore if someone claims to know and love God, but willfully disregards His Torah, he faces judgment.

John agrees with Paul:

1 John 2:3-6 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [Torah] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, [Torah] is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, [Torah] in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, [in His Torah] even as he walked [in His Torah].
When John spoke of "His commandments" the only thing he could have meant is God's Torah. As John says, the same Torah that Yahshua "walked," we too are to walk. It's plain as the nose on your face.

Why then, do some say Torah is no longer necessary? That is absurd! You cannot understand the Gospels without Torah, because that is the scripture they taught, there was no other at that time as the "New Testament" had not been written!

The whole Word of God agrees, and God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. HalleluYAH!
 
K

Karraster

Guest
10 And if Christ be in you



The "Messiah in us" is a very mystical concept, and some stumble at this. The gift of the Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit) parallels the dwelling of God’s spirit in the Tabernacle (Exodus 33:14) and the Temple (1 Kings 8:10-11; Isaiah 6). There is a similarity between the Ruach haKodesh and the Shekinah - the physical presence of God on earth.

(Hebrew words do not translate easily into English. Further study into Hebrew heightens understanding, for the Word of our Creator was given in Hebrew. I do not say it is imperative for salvation, certainly not! Just to say I find it helpful for myself, and perhaps others will too.)



Paul links God's presence in the Temple to Yahshua/Jesus (Colossians 1:19; 2:9) and also to believers who become the Temple of God (1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 6:16-18).



 
K

Karraster

Guest
11 ... shall also quicken your mortal bodies Though we will physically die due to sin, the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit (which is due to our justification) guarantees us that we will be resurrected (re: 1 Corinthians 6:14; 15:20,23; 2 Corinthians 4:14; Philippians 3:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:14). Yahshua has been anointed by God (Mashiach), who has put His Spirit on Him in order that He might bring deliverance, life and healing to His people (Isaiah 11:2, 49:8, 61:2).

That is the hope in our Salvation, Messiah, that we will be raised someday to forevermore be with our King.

 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Homwardbound, I THINK your post655 is a MOCK to my post635. you and Karraster are not listening to GOD'S word.! You said two things that made God happy: WE are only "vessels" for God to use,GREAT, God saves the elect as we preach His words. And I love your words: "dead to flesh sin and alive to God daily" GREAT!
please study hard my posts 635 & 639. Your teaching is making Christianity into a bad cult of easy believeism. All forms of "extreme grace" "scandalizing grace" "free grace" "grace alone, by Christ alone, by faith alone" of today are destroying the power and love of God. Eph.2:1-10 Salvation is by grace, thru, with our faith in Christ, unto our good, holy works in the Spirit, done by us. Our good works are not filthy rags, they are a sweet smell to God. ROM. 2:1-29 we will not be saved without our good works.! Love to all, Hoffco
If they are works of the flesh we suffer loss.

[h=3]1 Corinthians 3[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. [SUP]3[/SUP]For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? [SUP]6 [/SUP]I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. [SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [SUP]13 [/SUP]every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Love you doug, only trying to show the difference in flesh and the Spirit of god that no flesh self workd thinking I will be rewarded it not of God it is of self seeking rewards at the Heathen were doing in Christ's day, praying aloud in the synogogues for others to see and reward them, Wrong motive. that is all I am bringing out to all to see and know truth, to let go and let God
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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If grace and law have nothing to do with each other then every single person in this world could have unmerited favor with God apart from anything they thought or did. We would have no way to put on Christ, for law gives us the guidelines Christ uses, and they would be gone. We could not walk in the spirit, for the law tells us how to do that. There would be no love, for it is the base of all law, and with law gone, love would have to go. It would be a terrible world, one like scripture tells us of for the last days.

In fact, the teaching against law is a precursor to the last days.
Sister God plain and simple just love you and me and all the world, thank you Father for this free choice to beleive you or not adding nothing else but to see this unfathomable love from you to us the creation
Today I respond as King David when he saw the coming of the Messiah unto you Father, thank you Christ?

Psalm 100:4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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I'm going to press on with chapter 8. I wish the author of the thread would come back, he had good insight and presentation.
feel free to join in..

Romans 8


Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


With this chapter, Paul now concludes his midrash on Torah (begun at 6:1). Beginning around verse 28, and continuing through the following chapters 9-11, the discussion turns back to Israel. Paul discusses Israel's continued election, their stumbling, and the gentiles' relationship to Israel and the faith of Israel.

Paul describes the life of a believer in Yahshua Messiah:


  • Having "peace" (as opposed to enmity) with God (chapter 5)
  • A life characterized by sanctification through Torah observance (chapter 6)
  • Being free from the Torah's condemnation (chapter 7)
  • Marked by the indwelling of God's Spirit (chapter 8)
  • He identifies a "son" as one who serves God from love (via the positive commandments) and not from fear (condemnation of the negative commandments).

Paul again explains why believers are no longer under the Torah's condemnation – once more showing that the issue is not "no longer following Torah," but only the aspects of condemnation.

Just as the annual Yom Kippur sacrifice had to be "accepted in faith" by the individual Jew, in order for his sins to be forgiven, the same applies to accepting God's salvation through His sacrificed Messiah - the perfect and final Yom Kippur sacrifice.

No condemnation …" (katakrima = judgment), means having the freedom to serve God while still living in the flesh. The person baptized into Yahshua’s death & resurrection has been "freed" from serving his Yetzer Hara by God’s gift of righteousness (justification) in Yahshua (chap. 6). The believer is still confronted with this evil inclination (i.e., chapter 7), but is no longer under God’s condemnation, due to the sacrifice of Yahshua.

Paul already explained that God's Torah is a Torah of spirit (which is the same as the "Torah of Messiah" - Galatians 6:2) and that there is also a "false torah" of sin & death - ( Romans 7:21-23).

God's Torah given through Moses (properly understood and applied) is NOT equated to the "law of sin and death." The Torah of the spirit, IS the Torah given through Moses, that points to Messiah, who in turn points us to Torah (Matthew 5:17-21). Yahshua is both the giver of Torah and the embodiment of the Torah (i.e., the "Word" made "flesh" - John, chapter 1).

God does not change.
God says that the Torah He has given, is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing to those who follow it in faith (i.e., Hebrews 4:2), and a curse to those who do not
Deuteronomy 30:1 and 6
Deuteronomy 30:11-14 - For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
For those who say that no one could ever "follow the Law" and that we had to "wait until the Messiah," this verse (and others) creates a problem. God says that it is NOT too hard to follow His Torah. He also held them accountable and punished them when they failed. If it was never possible to follow Torah (as many today teach), and God still demanded obedience (as the Bible clearly shows), then this would make God the supreme sadist.


Love you, seeing what you see as truth is truth to you and I rejoice in trusting God to cause me and you both of us to be able to stand , all in love to you Sister
Making no Judgement =just being Thankful to God knowing od will;:
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

And not saying you are judging to bring clarity, it is to me nopt to:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Good post! The law is a hedge of protection around us if we let it be. It is out of love that our Father gave it. Imagine a world where God's law was followed! There would be no need for security systems, locks of any kind, frankly most lawyers would have to find other work!

God is not a task master. Man is the task master making thousands of laws, laws on top of laws...

Murmuring against God's laws is not good. To say God broke His covenants with us is a gross misunderstanding of the Word.

Paul tried to make it clear, the law is good, and the desire to keep it, love God. With Messiah as our Salvation and guide, He is always with us to lead us not into temptation, if we would only ask.
When it is followed there is no need for Law now is there? And by Christ through Faith in what he did we are made righteous and walk in Love to all, not just those that agree with us, or do we do as the Heathen?
 
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38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter is the Holy Ghost
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Love you, seeing what you see as truth is truth to you and I rejoice in trusting God to cause me and you both of us to be able to stand , all in love to you Sister
Making no Judgement =just being Thankful to God knowing od will;:
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

And not saying you are judging to bring clarity, it is to me nopt to:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Can we agree that Messiah is the Word made flesh? If we can, that is a basis for further discussion in what exactly was it, that Messiah taught.
[h=3]John 1[/h]New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[h=3]The Deity of Jesus Christ[/h]1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [SUP][b][/SUP]comprehend it.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
When it is followed there is no need for Law now is there? And by Christ through Faith in what he did we are made righteous and walk in Love to all, not just those that agree with us, or do we do as the Heathen?
When what is followed? See, it's the what I am aiming for, and not of the understanding of what I think is right, but with the Word telling me what is right and wrong.

What is the it, you refer to? Can you explain it? Or is it what each man perceives right to be?
 
K

Karraster

Guest
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter is the Holy Ghost
Peter in not the Holy Ghost. Where is that written?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Job 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 13:9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Ephesians 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
1 Thessalonians 3:10 night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?















2 Timothy 3:17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through
Hebrews 5:9 and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 9:9 which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.










And it seems I see many trying to become Sanctified when it is all done for you and me in Christ. So simple we can't see the forest through the trees, being taught to work hard for success a way of this world that contradicts Faith in God through Son, at least what i see, and the truth shall make one free and be free indeed those that Christ reveals it to are, and it does take hard work to enter God's rest, to understand it is by belief that we do as led as Christ did this during his entire walk on earth.
Note: He did not do any of the works
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Is this not to be for us too, Chrisat sent the same Holy Spirit to us right to do what lead us as did Christ right?