Works Determine Whether you go to Heaven or Hell
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You can quote scripture and say over and over that God doesn't care or look at our works, and it simply is not what God says. The definition of grace is not "don't work to please God". The definition includes the forgiveness without our earning it. When evil in men make it say to not try to do any of God's work, it is not God saying it, it is the evil in men.
We are in the last days, we have the opportunity to look at ourselves now. When Christ returns to judge us, Christ will look at our works. God is ready for us with grace, but our judgment will be on how we use that grace.
We are in the last days, we have the opportunity to look at ourselves now. When Christ returns to judge us, Christ will look at our works. God is ready for us with grace, but our judgment will be on how we use that grace.
Very good explanation. All of the Word of God is a mirror. We should always look at where we stand in the sight of God.
James 1:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Some will say the the law of liberty doesn't involve the law of God in the Old Testament. When James wrote this, all they had was what we know as the Old Testament writings, and the truth of the New Testament in the testimony of Christ. Jesus wasn't disconnected with His Father.
James 1:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Some will say the the law of liberty doesn't involve the law of God in the Old Testament. When James wrote this, all they had was what we know as the Old Testament writings, and the truth of the New Testament in the testimony of Christ. Jesus wasn't disconnected with His Father.
E
And you can keep twisting what God says and continue to try to work to earn a salvation. WHen the law states otherwise.
Your right, Grace does not say, "do not work to please God" Quite the opposite. (ie undeserved favor or mercy)
Grace says NO AMOUNT of work can please God enough to restore our relationship with him.
Once our relationship is restored. Works flow abundantly out of the faith and trust in the things of God.
This is not true.
God will only look to the works of the believer, and judge and award accordingly. (bema seat)
God may look at the work of the unbeliever, But he will not judge that work. He will suffer eternally not because he did not work. But because he rejected the good news of Jesus. (great white throne)
Your right, Grace does not say, "do not work to please God" Quite the opposite. (ie undeserved favor or mercy)
Grace says NO AMOUNT of work can please God enough to restore our relationship with him.
Once our relationship is restored. Works flow abundantly out of the faith and trust in the things of God.
This is not true.
God will only look to the works of the believer, and judge and award accordingly. (bema seat)
God may look at the work of the unbeliever, But he will not judge that work. He will suffer eternally not because he did not work. But because he rejected the good news of Jesus. (great white throne)
You do realize you are saying that we must do certain things for salvation to take place.
Man must call on His name, place their faith in Him, align their view with His ...
Unless one does these things, salvation is not given right?
Then logically its salvation by doing something, not freely given in the strictest sense.
Or like i said before, God may freely give it to us and cause us to call on Him but He does it arbitrarily.
Man must call on His name, place their faith in Him, align their view with His ...
Unless one does these things, salvation is not given right?
Then logically its salvation by doing something, not freely given in the strictest sense.
Or like i said before, God may freely give it to us and cause us to call on Him but He does it arbitrarily.
Talk about twisting!!! I have never once told the lie that God saves us based on our works. Or that God gives law for the unsaved.
I think you are misquoting God's word when you say that we must not read or listen to God's Holy Law. Your advice to not read scripture, that it has been cancelled that you say over and over is painful to me and the church.
I think you are misquoting God's word when you say that we must not read or listen to God's Holy Law. Your advice to not read scripture, that it has been cancelled that you say over and over is painful to me and the church.
T
Before talking about wages for good work you should make sure that God exists and is not a delusion.
Before talking about heavens you should make sure that heaven exists and is not an invention of men.
Before talking about resurrection you should make sure that Jesus was really raised from the dead.
How can we serve the Lord if we have no faith?
Before talking about heavens you should make sure that heaven exists and is not an invention of men.
Before talking about resurrection you should make sure that Jesus was really raised from the dead.
How can we serve the Lord if we have no faith?
E
Do what? Sit still. Admit I am a hopeless situation. And am in need of being saved because I can;t save myself.
Yeah I can sure BOAST of this.
No. Unless one admits their hopeless situation. And asks God to rescue them.
The rest will fall into place once salvation occurs.
lol. No.
Again I ask you. who can boast of allowing themselves to be rescued by another because they were totally unable to help themselves.
Yeah I can sure BOAST of this.
No. Unless one admits their hopeless situation. And asks God to rescue them.
The rest will fall into place once salvation occurs.
lol. No.
Again I ask you. who can boast of allowing themselves to be rescued by another because they were totally unable to help themselves.
E
You will have to help me, You condemn us and twist what we say, as people who do not believe this. Now your saying it?
No wonder we are confused.
No.
WHat is a pain and killing the church is taking people who KNOW the law. Who have had the law FULFILLED in them. And who because they completely understand the law. To go back to what they ALREADY KNOW and accepted. And think this will make them more holy.
it is holding people back.
it is making people boast that they are better than they really are
it is defeating people who understands it completely and understand they can not fulfill it.
it is confusing the world. as people pick and chose which parts to follow and which parts to not follow.
There is nothing good for a child of God going back to law.
Now the works of God are these tbat are made manifest in our vert person are tbe fruits of the spirit a clean pure lives in the works of God ,His word directing our steps now the problem too many are unleveanth trying to interpret the holy word but not aware that pauls words are for the learned not the unlear.ed
Hi there Angela, I understand that this thread covers a topic that is likely to get some upset and rightfully so.
But still; it was wrong of you to attack the word of God.
And you attacked it when you claimed that it is "unreadable."
That is not true. The word of God is readable. Its very readable.
God in His providence preserved His word and made it available in the English language (closest thing to a universal language today), knowing that English would be the language of the End Time.
Please be careful how you treat the word of God.
Proverbs 16:17-18 KJV
The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul. [18] Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
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I have read those verses a thousand times, in context! I have to wonder if you read the ones I wrote in my post. Or in the other post in a recent thread, where I went into the Greek tenses, showing that the verbs are in the aorist passive tense. Meaning salvation was done by God, and is a completed action in the past.
Do you know what cherry picking is? It is when you pull a verse out of context, do not adhere to the cultural or grammatical context, and come up with false doctrine. It happens all the time these days. As I said, I have read all your verses, but in modern English, or Greek. I don't speak 1611 English, so I won't read them. However, I did look at the references, and realized how you are just cherry picking verses, doing eisegesis to prove a theory, instead of reading the Bible deeply, in context, to understand the truth of God being sovereign with regards to both salvation and everything else. Works are something that comes after salvation, as part of our walk to maturity, as we serve God, because of the joy of knowing he loves us and has saved us from sin and death. (Eph. 2:10)
And he does NOT cast people out, contrary to your verses. But of course, that has been explained to you so many times. You only think your posts are valid, and the verses you pick, rather than reading the Bible as a whole.
You need to study the grammatical-historical method of hermeneutics, plus the Biblical languages, and then you might be qualified to explain some passages which you think might support your position, should you still be in error about whether works or grace saves.
Grammatical-Historical Hermeneutics For Lay Readers
What Is Grammatical-Historical Interpretation & Why Is It Important?
"The grammatico-historical sense of a writer is such an interpretation of his language as is required by the laws of grammar and the facts of history. Sometimes we speak of the literal sense, by which we mean the most simple, direct, and ordinary meaning of phrases and sentences. By this term we usually denote a meaning opposed to the figurative or metaphorical. The grammatical sense is essentially the same as the literal, the one expression being derived from the Greek, the other from the Latin. But in English usage the word grammatical is applied rather to the arrangement and construction of words and sentences. By the historical sense we designate, rather, the meaning of an author's words that is required by historical considerations. It demands that we consider carefully the time of the author, and the circumstances under which he wrote..A fundamental principle in grammatico-historical exposition is that words and sentences can have but one significance in one and the same connection. The moment we neglect this principle we drift out upon a sea of uncertainty and conjecture.[SUP]1"[/SUP]
Do you know what cherry picking is? It is when you pull a verse out of context, do not adhere to the cultural or grammatical context, and come up with false doctrine. It happens all the time these days. As I said, I have read all your verses, but in modern English, or Greek. I don't speak 1611 English, so I won't read them. However, I did look at the references, and realized how you are just cherry picking verses, doing eisegesis to prove a theory, instead of reading the Bible deeply, in context, to understand the truth of God being sovereign with regards to both salvation and everything else. Works are something that comes after salvation, as part of our walk to maturity, as we serve God, because of the joy of knowing he loves us and has saved us from sin and death. (Eph. 2:10)
And he does NOT cast people out, contrary to your verses. But of course, that has been explained to you so many times. You only think your posts are valid, and the verses you pick, rather than reading the Bible as a whole.
You need to study the grammatical-historical method of hermeneutics, plus the Biblical languages, and then you might be qualified to explain some passages which you think might support your position, should you still be in error about whether works or grace saves.
Grammatical-Historical Hermeneutics For Lay Readers
What Is Grammatical-Historical Interpretation & Why Is It Important?
"The grammatico-historical sense of a writer is such an interpretation of his language as is required by the laws of grammar and the facts of history. Sometimes we speak of the literal sense, by which we mean the most simple, direct, and ordinary meaning of phrases and sentences. By this term we usually denote a meaning opposed to the figurative or metaphorical. The grammatical sense is essentially the same as the literal, the one expression being derived from the Greek, the other from the Latin. But in English usage the word grammatical is applied rather to the arrangement and construction of words and sentences. By the historical sense we designate, rather, the meaning of an author's words that is required by historical considerations. It demands that we consider carefully the time of the author, and the circumstances under which he wrote..A fundamental principle in grammatico-historical exposition is that words and sentences can have but one significance in one and the same connection. The moment we neglect this principle we drift out upon a sea of uncertainty and conjecture.[SUP]1"[/SUP]
The main problem with this post is that you proceed to base your argument on Ephesians 2:8-9, but VERY quickly move away, attempt a word study by diving into a grab bag of other verses, without actually dealing with the entirety of Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith is not a work, precisely because of what Paul says in those verses (and which you manage to ignore entirely) - faith is a gift of God. It does not come from works, or mans effort, otherwise man would have something to boast in. Ergo, it is God's gift.
If you want to bring in other verses, that's fine. But please actually deal with Ephesians itself. The clear reading of these verses is that God gifts faith as he does salvation, and it is from this faith and salvation that good works flow, precisely because God pre-ordained them in those he saves. You cannot then bring in James, Timothy, etc to say something different, you have to read all the texts together, otherwise you simply pit Scripture against Scripture, and create doctrine of your own devising.
However, if one takes Ephesians 2 as read, and expect the paradigm of salvation to be grace>faith>salvation>works, instead of faith>works>grace>salvation, then the meaning of James, Timothy, etc becomes clear.
Note, I am not saying good works are not important, and that Christians are excused from good works. Scripture merely teaches that good works are predicated on salvation, not the other way around.
If you want to bring in other verses, that's fine. But please actually deal with Ephesians itself. The clear reading of these verses is that God gifts faith as he does salvation, and it is from this faith and salvation that good works flow, precisely because God pre-ordained them in those he saves. You cannot then bring in James, Timothy, etc to say something different, you have to read all the texts together, otherwise you simply pit Scripture against Scripture, and create doctrine of your own devising.
However, if one takes Ephesians 2 as read, and expect the paradigm of salvation to be grace>faith>salvation>works, instead of faith>works>grace>salvation, then the meaning of James, Timothy, etc becomes clear.
Note, I am not saying good works are not important, and that Christians are excused from good works. Scripture merely teaches that good works are predicated on salvation, not the other way around.
