Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[JGIG]

"God is a debtor to no one". If we decide to work for our salvation, He is not obliged to do anything. Access to God is by one way only. Jesus said "I am the Way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me"

Then when we have recieved Jesus as our Saviour, and begin to seek to imitate Him
It's essencial to know who we are in Christ before we can make any progress for God. To trust that He knows us well enough to save once for all our lives., Sin is no longer imputed to us., it was taken away and nailed to the cross. Many chrisitans do the dance of being righteous but then not being righteous.,then getting righteous again, then dropping the ball and not being righteous. Soon the dance is exhausting. We are not nor will we ever be righteous enough to do a good work worthy of salvation. Also we will never be good enough to do a work of sanctification in our lives. lol The sanctification process is also done by grace through faith in Him as we allow Him to love us through life. Trust Him to take care of us and bring us through to the end. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. amen!

When we recieve Jesus Christ, we become the righteousness of God in Christ. We become the righteousness OF GOD ...IN CHRIST. doesn't get any better than that.
It even sounds too awsome to say.

Grace is getting everything while putting IN nothing ourselves. We pay nothing, Jesus paid all. He received our sin...we recieve HIS righteousness. It is a spiritual truth that will not make sense to a human mind unless God opens your understanding to free grace. Grace cannot be earned or merited by impressing God with our humble goodness. There is nothing worthy of merit in us. That is the very reason it took Jesus., the Son of God to come. Where sin abounds GRACE much more abounded.
That is the Gospel message...the Good News!!! That is why we can be so joyful in this life now and in the next life. We can live in joyful anticipation of what He will do as we consider what He has done and IS doing now in us. That is the difference between successful living and defeated living for the christian.

\o/ \o/ \o/

Soooo worth repeating!

+1000

Thanks for posting!

​

-JGIG

 

[Alligator]

but you're missing one of the main points. Jesus pardoned the thief on the cross obviously while he was still alive. This took place still under the Old Testament law. Read the account.

Yep. The thief also recognized Jesus and His Kingdom. He believed. One does not cancel out or add to the other; Jesus spoke in confirmation of the belief that the thief had:

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (from Luke 23)​

-JGIG

But none of this addresses the issue. I'm saying Christ pardoned the thief while he was still under the law of Moses. That's why he is not a good example for what to do to be saved today.

 

[JGIG]

Here that strawman is again. No one here that I have seen have said they are working to earn salvation.


Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jeus Himself plainly said to LABOUR, LABOUR for everlasting life which He GIVES. HE gives it so it is free but you must LABOUR for it. So evidently your LABOURING does not earn it for Christ GIVES it for free. So your labour is a condition attached to Christ's free gift of everlasting life and you labour cannot in anyway earn it.

The doublemindedness displayed in the above post is stunning.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

John 6:29 (NKJV)
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

So, what do you think "believe in Him" means? :

John 14:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

He said keep all his commandments and he will love you,

John 14:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [SUP]24 [/SUP]He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

If you don't keep His commands (all of them) then He will not love you, do you believe Him?

Simplicity!

Define His commandments. What, precisely, are they that you say we have to keep (all of them)?

Sea Bass, you 'liked' the above post; what's the list? Be specific.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I used to be one of those people that accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior and thats kind of where it stopped. I lived how I wanted and thought that was ok. But I was wrong. I was a lukewarm Christian and God put that conviction in my heart. People need to know were Christians by our actions, not just our words. We must always walk in love and correct with love. Pray to God for correction and to guide you in your walk with Christ. Faith without works is dead, and salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned. Both work hand in hand. God bless

Are you any 'more saved' now than you were the day you received Christ's Work on your behalf?

-JGIG

 

[faroukfarouk]

Are you any 'more saved' now than you were the day you received Christ's Work on your behalf?

-JGIG

Romans 5.1 says: 'Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ'. By faith, this is an established fact. It's not some vague process which we deign to pursue and to which we thereby supposedly contribute merit. For the believer, peace with God is a glorious fact, for which God alone gets all the glory!

Blessings.

 

[BenFTW]

No, he does not HAVE to. But as a New Creation, if he led by the Spirit and not by the Law, because the Spirit is producing His Fruit in that believer (Love), the believer will not only want to help not only a fellow Christian, but the sinner, as well.

It's so interesting to me that obligation or fear of losing or not attaining salvation is the motivation for obedience in your paradigm. It brings elements of resentment and fear into the believer's heart instead of confidence and love, both of which God desires for His children (1 Jn. 4, Heb. 4, and many other passages).

-JGIG

1 John 4:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This verse speaks volumes in regards to people not assured in their salvation. Imagine, the Word even says that we may come boldly forth in judgment!


1 John 4:17
New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

 

[p_rehbein]

Are you any 'more saved' now than you were the day you received Christ's Work on your behalf?

-JGIG

I'm not...................... but I have to wonder how many saved Christians have become sanctified Christians?

 

[danalee]

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (from Rom. 5)
​

Everyone is invited to God's Party. He even provides the garments of righteousness!

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. (from Is. 61)
​

-JGIG

I love your enthusiasm....it reminds me so much of the loving people (in my life) who profess the Cross and witness the miracle and blessing of Christ to all. Good message.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But none of this addresses the issue. I'm saying Christ pardoned the thief while he was still under the law of Moses. That's why he is not a good example for what to do to be saved today.

This makes no sense.

No one was saved by the law of moses. The only way your view makes sense is if he was saved by that law, and not by Grace, Which you already stated you believed.

 

[just-me]

But none of this addresses the issue. I'm saying Christ pardoned the thief while he was still under the law of Moses. That's why he is not a good example for what to do to be saved today.

That is correct because the new testament didn't begin until the death of Christ. Jesus repositioned the thief out from under the condemnation of the law because of his belief, and He also had the power to forgive, same as during His ministry. It's just like all the faithful being forgiven during the Old Testament times. Jesus taught during Old Testament times before He died.

Hebrews 9:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[SeaBass]

I re-read your question and just realized something, while everything I wrote down below still applies, I have a point to make beforehand. Your question needs to be reworded because as it is now, it cannot be answered accurately as you have defined incorrectly a saved man. Your question collapses on its own without needing to be answered, as a saved Christian will produce good works(if given the opportunity). To ask whether a Christian can be saved without good works is to ask whether a Gold Medalist can be one without having entered the Olympics. Its, as I state below, a stupid question and more so, in that of making an argument out of it. You are offering a false definition of a saved Christian to then argue against said false definition (given they have a life time to bear fruit).
--------------------------------------------
I must say, that is one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard and more so, that it is being said to try and argue a point of works being necessary. The answer to that question, and I say this with hesitating cause it might go to your head, is "Yes." HOWEVER, you are using a half truth. By the very definition of what a Christian is, it entails a good work of some kind will happen(in their life time) due to how God changes our nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who gives us the gifts of the Holy Spirit. One of which is the fruit of LOVE and love will cause us to do something that is considered to be a good work.

See now, a work of some kind WILL happen, but its not of ourselves but out of what God makes us and produces in us (the fruits). This is not to say, "See! Works are necessary! Ha! Gotcha!" On the contrary, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be saved and not yield fruit, because by being saved we are born-again, receiving a new nature, and of course, the fruits of the Spirit. To argue that works are then necessary for salvation is to deny death bed confessions, someone who had the opportunity to help someone and didn't, and the thief on the cross, from receiving salvation. You can't argue against the thief by saying he was under OT Law, because he confessed Christ believing what He would do (accomplish) just as the many people saved from Sheol were saved in those three days Christ was dead, until His resurrection because of Christ (and the promise).

Do you see how stupid such an argument is? A musician will play an instrument, therefore if he doesn't play an instrument he isn't a musician. No duh... good job Sherlock! A Christian will produce some kind of good works, but the works didnt give him salvation and they neither maintain his salvation.

As it says on one site: Think of it this way. If it was your birthday and a friend came and gave you a gift , something that you really wanted you'd be very thankful. but what if you pulled out your wallet and said let me pay you for your gift. That would be a real insult to him. He gave it to you out of love not asking for anything in return

In 1 Corinthians 3:15 it tells us of a man whose works are all burned yet he still has salvation.

So to answer your question, of whether works are necessary for salvation. NO they aren't, because in scripture we have an example of a man being left with no work standing and he is still saved! You can't get past that, he had no works standing, they were of no merit, yet he was still saved!

1 Corinthians 3:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. (no works necessary) Works do not maintain that salvation, once one has it, as is clearly seen in 1 Corinthians 3:15.

/End of topic

Again, you posted "Works are a necessary out-flow of who you now are(a Christian)"

Your words, not mine.

In1 Cor 3:15, the "works" in this context refer to converts. 1 Cor 9:1, Paul called the Corinthians his "work" and 1 Cor 3 speaks to the fact if a man's converts are lost or saved.

 

[SeaBass]

In my post before, this is the word I was looking for to describe your question. Your question is a false dichotomy.

A false dichotomy is typically used in an argument to force your opponent into an extreme position -- by making the assumption that there are only two positions.Examples:

• "If you want better public schools, you have to raise taxes. If you don't want to raise taxes, you can't have better schools." - A third alternative is that you could spend the existing tax money more efficiently.
• "You're either part of the solution or part of the problem." - No room for innocent bystanders here.
• "If you're not with us, you're against us." - Being neutral is not an option.

When I posted "So you agree that it is not possible for a man to be saved while NEVER do ANY TYPE of work at all in his entire life." It was to Seed Time Harvest, post #299.

You already refuted your own position when you posted "Works are a necessary out-flow of who you now are(a Christian), just as an apple tree necessarily produces apples, as that is what it is. An apple tree."

 

[SeaBass]

How could "faith that saves is not alone" be a contradiction to "faith alone saves?" Anyone who is saved is saved by faith alone, but the gratitude and complete joy that comes with salvation will not allow anyone who is saved not to act as though they are saved. Worship is works, prayer is works, waiting for the Lord is works, and so on down the line. There are those who teach, those who edify, those who exhort, those with gifts of healing and much more. Works is not some kind of billboard to God, works are small notes written on our hearts, and He reads them all.

No one who is truly saved does no works, otherwise his salvation is a dilusion. Just because it is only God Who knows or sees the works does not mean a brother or sister is not constantly working for the Lord. Let us edify with beautiful, true thoughts in our posting.

"Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone"

How can faith be alone and not alone at the same time?

Intrestingly you post "Worship is works, prayer is works, waiting for the Lord is works, and so on down the line"

The point I am rasing in this thread is can a man go thru his entire life and NEVER do any type of work at all and still be saved?

So can a Christian NOT do the works of worshipping, praying, waiting for the Lord, and other works yet still be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

Your question has been answered many times in this thread. Why do you keep asking it and refuse to acknowledge the answer?

THE VERSES YOU ASK FOR ARE:

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
COUPLED WITH:
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN ACCEPTING JESUS, AND EVEN THE FAITH IS NOT A WORK BY YOU, IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD.

ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS TO REFINE YOUR HEART WHICH WILL RESULT IN GOOD WORKS.

You quote Rom 10:9 whre both belief and confession are WORKS.


Faith is a work that man must do it not a work God does for man, 1 Thess 1:3 "work of faith"

Rom 10:17, faith comes by hearing. God does not randomly, unconditionally give faith to some while withholding it from others. Faith therefore would only be a gift in the sense that God has allowed man to have faith.

 

[Hoffco]

Seabass., your words are tripping you up. It is like "messed up mindedness". We don't "work" to become a Christian, we work after God saves us. BUT, we must keep in mind, everyone, it takes a lot of work to come to the Faith. Others worked on me for 4 yrs, with no results; only when God had me ready, when God was ready, then, I really asked God for salvation, and called on Jesus to save me. My believing in Jesus was the first "work of God" that I did. God saved me, by the new birth and forgiveness of my sins, now ,I have been believing and working the "work of God" ever since. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[BenFTW]

Again, you posted "Works are a necessary out-flow of who you now are(a Christian)"

Your words, not mine.

In1 Cor 3:15, the "works" in this context refer to converts. 1 Cor 9:1, Paul called the Corinthians his "work" and 1 Cor 3 speaks to the fact if a man's converts are lost or saved.

I'm sorry, but you remind me of someone who uses circular logic to make a point. Around and around you go, spiraling into that stupidity that is your perspective. This may sound harsh, but you really are trying a person's patience when you obviously keep missing the point and dare I say, intentionally miss the point. You ignore the fact of whats been said, so that you may try, and fail might I add, to show that works are necessary for salvation. However, you're wrong. Your interpretation of Corinthians is also wrong. I feel as Paul saying "O foolish Galatians!"

SeaBass, I didn't say works are necessary. I said they necessarily flow out of a born again spirit (spiritually dead now made alive) and out of someone having received the fruits of the Spirit. Works are bound to happen,UNINTENTIONALLY. They are a fruit of who you now are. No more than a white person tries to be white, they just are.

If works were necessary for salvation, death bed confessors, the thief on the cross, people in a coma, people lost at sea, people who died shortly after accepting the Lord and anyone without time to bear fruit would be sent to hell. If, for whatever reason, there is some spiritual rule that such people are saved because they never had the chance to produce works, then EVERYONE should go get lost at sea, go to war to die, ask someone to knock them into a coma, or live an exceptionally risky life so they may die quickly! That is the logic that you propose.

You cannot show me that works are necessary for salvation AND you can't show me that they maintain salvation. You have yet to do so, and I challenge you to show me that it is so. Don't rehash the same verses you've been throwing out at us either, because they've each been refuted. It's like we're playing a game at an arcade, and you keep losing. TRY AGAIN. [insert coin]

 

[SeaBass]

Hi SeaBass
were you able to understand what i wrote,the reason i ask is because my answer is there

For salvation,i believe faith only is required.After salvation,you will do good works,and if you do not then i don't think you received salvation.

Hi,

I do not agree that one is saved by a dead faith only, but BEFORE one can be saved he must do the works of believing, Jn 8:24; repetance, Lk 13:3,5, confession, Mt 10:32,33 and submit to water baptism, Mk 16:16 > Acts 2:38.

Faith onlythereofre IMPLLIES that one can be saved in while still impenitent, while still denying CHrist, and while still lost in his nremitted/unforgiven sins...which is not biblically possible at all. In other words, here is the processs you have od savlation:



(1) faiith only (no works)>>>>>>>>>>>>saved>>>>>>>>>>>then do worksof repenting, confession and submitting to baptism.

You further posted "After salvation,you will do good works,and if you do not then i don't think you received salvation."

So if I ASSUME for a momne one can be saved by faith alone, then must he then do these good works you speak about or can he NOT do these good works and still be saved?


Again, the bible's position and my position is that works are necessary BEFORE one can be sved and necessary AFTER one is saved. So again, if I assume that BEFORE works are not necessary how do you get around those necessary post-salvation works?

 

[cfultz3]

No, he does not HAVE to. But as a New Creation, if he led by the Spirit and not by the Law, because the Spirit is producing His Fruit in that believer (Love), the believer will not only want to help not only a fellow Christian, but the sinner, as well.

........

-JGIG

This is what I understand you saying:

You say that if one is lead by the Spirit, with the implied understanding that it is the Spirit guiding one to perform an act of love, then when He does guide us to perform that act, that we do 'not HAVE to' perform that act, with further implication of not being in fear of loosing salvation.
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I always felt that Hebrews literally mean that we should not become like those who fell in the wilderness, whose heart became stubborn and did not hearken to the Voice of the Lord. And that if we were to become stubborn like them, we too will be done like them, hence the warning of watching over each other so that sort of heart will not be found in us.

As with any child, I can understand a little stubbornness, but how long can someone claim that they do not have to do as the Spirit guides, before the Lord becomes disgusted with them and surrender them over to the lusts of their hearts and by which, cause them to fail as He did with some of the Hebrews?

You also imply that if a person is led by the Spirit, then the Spirit is producing His fruit (Love) in them and they would want to help all. What do we then do with verses which imply that the love (agape) we have is that which comes from us as taught to us by God (1Th 4:9) and acted upon by us in the following verses:

'if we were to love God', 'if God so loved the world, we ought to love one another', 'he who loves not his brother...how can he love God', 'if any man loves God', 'love your wife'?​

I guess I am asking, if the love we have is not our own love (agape), then is that love really true love coming from our heart or just an implanted love by which God acts? Or is it that we love God because He first loved us?

Could it be that since we love God, that God has prepared things which the eye has never seen, neither the ear have heard, nor have ever entered the heart? Is it not said that God will give the crown of life to those who loves Him?

If love is a production, then it cannot be genuine. However, if love is taught and we act upon it accordingly, then God's judgment of deeds is righteous.

 

[SeaBass]

The Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist who was long dead by the time Jesus was crucified and on top of that the (church) had been spoken of in the present tense no less than three times during the earthly ministry of Jesus....

You remind me of another dude...His new name was MR. Twisty.........

Both Christ and the thief were alive and under the OT law when Christ promised the thief paradise. As Alligator pointed out Heb 9;16,17 Christ's NT could not take effect until some time after His own death.

The church did not begin until Pentecost, Acts 2 and is spoken of in future tense, Mt 16:18 "I will build" is future tense.



Rom 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

A NT belief requires that one believe that God "hath raised" [past tense] Christ from the dead. Since the thief was not under the NT he was not required to believe God "hath raised" Christ form the dead. When Christ promised the thief paradise Christ had not yet died much less been raised from the dead.