Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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You say the law of Christ is not the law of Moses, and I say that is what you say. You say "cheap shot" "accusing me" "insulting you". Yet you repeat it. Christ says that the law of Moses stands, Christ adds to it. Here you say the law of Moses does not stand, yet I am to pretend you say that it does. You bewilder me.
When someone who consistently claims to be a brother in the Messiah is also consistent in giving a personal interpretation or opinion in place of the learning by the Holy Spirit, it is time to release that one from further obligations by allowing him to go his way until he is walking in the light of Yeshua, Jesus. My list is growing.
There's no question which Law Paul was speaking of, but in establishing the Law, Paul was not saying that we in Christ are still bound to it. In fact, Paul was quite clear in Romans 7 that in Christ, we have died to the Law and have been released from the Law in order to be joined to another, Christ, in order that we may bear fruit unto God (vs.1-6).
To go back to the Law as a 'way of life' is spiritual adultery.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law (Gal. 5:18).
When Paul, in the context of the New Covenant, says we establish the Law, he is saying we establish it for the purpose for which it was given; to lead sinners to Christ (Gal. 3:19-29). The Law was not given to the righteous (and we who are in Christ are righteous - Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5 and others), but to the unrighteous (1 Tim. 1:11).
Those who preach Torah observance for believers are misusing the Law.
-JGIG
To go back to the Law as a 'way of life' is spiritual adultery.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law (Gal. 5:18).
When Paul, in the context of the New Covenant, says we establish the Law, he is saying we establish it for the purpose for which it was given; to lead sinners to Christ (Gal. 3:19-29). The Law was not given to the righteous (and we who are in Christ are righteous - Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5 and others), but to the unrighteous (1 Tim. 1:11).
Those who preach Torah observance for believers are misusing the Law.
-JGIG
No, dear, Christ did not build His Kingdom on 'those things'; those things were merely a shadow that point to the Reality that is in Christ.
Christ built His Kingdom on the His Work: The Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, His Perfect and forever High Priesthood.
Why was the Law given?
But the Law was never given to give us Life. Only Christ can do that.
-JGIG
Christ built His Kingdom on the His Work: The Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, His Perfect and forever High Priesthood.
Why was the Law given?
- So that sin might increase (Rom. 5:20)
- So that sin might be recognized as utterly sinful (Rom. 7:13)
- Was given NOT to the righteous, but to the unrighteous (1 Tim. 1:8-11)
- To bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24-29)
- To stir up sin (Rom. 7:5)
But the Law was never given to give us Life. Only Christ can do that.
-JGIG
No, it doesn't.
It tells us that the NEW Covenant was ratified in Christ's Blood, not the Old.
The Laws given at Sinai were not place in our hearts, but the Law of God after the Cross was: believe on the One He has sent and love one another (1 Jn. 3:23-24).
No one hates the word Torah. No one here hates the Law. We keep it in its proper place and use it properly.
We do not make Torah an idol as you have done ('Yeshua is the Living Torah).
-JGIG
I didn't say that.
That's you, as you so often do, lying about what I've said to discredit me (and other posters to whom you do the same thing). It really is very deceitful. You, know, lying, which is breaking one of the Ten Commandments you claim to revere.
All Scripture is useful for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16).
That does not mean that those in Christ are bound to the Law.
The Scriptures are clear: Those in Christ are no longer under the Law, we are severed, dead to, released from the Law.
Released/Delivered From the Law and Christ is the End of the Law – Getting Greeky About Romans 7, 10, and Ephesians 2
-JGIG
That's you, as you so often do, lying about what I've said to discredit me (and other posters to whom you do the same thing). It really is very deceitful. You, know, lying, which is breaking one of the Ten Commandments you claim to revere.
All Scripture is useful for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16).
That does not mean that those in Christ are bound to the Law.
The Scriptures are clear: Those in Christ are no longer under the Law, we are severed, dead to, released from the Law.
Released/Delivered From the Law and Christ is the End of the Law – Getting Greeky About Romans 7, 10, and Ephesians 2
-JGIG
That made no sense at all.
You might try using Scripture in your posts.
As for us being dead to the world - yes! In Christ, we are!
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)
If that's not clear enough, try this:
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (from Gal. 2)
-JGIG
You might try using Scripture in your posts.
As for us being dead to the world - yes! In Christ, we are!
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)
If that's not clear enough, try this:
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (from Gal. 2)
-JGIG
Were you to execute even a cursory study of the definition of the word, Torah, you will find it means teaching as well as the law. Most times when the word, law, is used in the New Testament, it is referring to the teachings in general, not just the laws written down by Moses.
Yes, Jesus Christ is the Word, He is the teaching, and one should not be so quick on the trigger if he has not checked for valid ammunition. Actualy, one should not judge others at all. No one has crossed any line, except for one who may be judgine another's servant.
To say Jesus Christ is Torah with understanding is perfectly correct. Did you ask if the person means just the law? He is also those teachings for He is all of the Word. All that is written is for our edification, not for our editing. It is from God.
Dear JGIG, shalom. What Red Tent has shared is in perfect accord with what I have learned from the Word, or the Torah of Jesus Christ, Yeshua.
Rom 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If anyone truly desires to know his Salvation, he would begin with hearing what Jesus, Yeshua, teaches. Also he must recognize that Jesus was a Jew because He was of the tribe of Judah as prophesied. Then he must recognize that his faith that comes with divine salvation by the Blood of Yahweh's Lamb is the faith of Abraham as mentioned in the New Testament, and that all who believe become children of Abraham.
No one need change their own religion, or their own vocabulary, but they must give honor where honor is due. You may find out where by learning from Yeshua, Jesus, amen.
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Going to the Greek settles the matter:
Romans 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been >>> delivered G2673 – katargeō <<< from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been >>> delivered G2673 – katargeō <<< from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
G2673 – katargeō is translated as both ‘abolished’ in Eph. 2:15 and as ‘delivered’ in Rom. 7:6.
Here’s the definition:
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one
That’s talkin’ about the Law for those in Christ, folks!
The Law, for those in Christ, is these things:
➞ idle
➞ unemployed
➞ inactive (!!!)
➞ inoperative (!!!)
➞ to cause a person to have no further efficiency
➞ to deprive of force, influence, power (!!!)
➞ to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish (!!!)
➞ to cease, to pass away, be done away (!!!)
➞ to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one (!!!)
➞ to terminate all intercourse with one (!!!)
From Released/Delivered From the Law and Christ is the End of the Law – Getting Greeky About Romans 7, 10, and Ephesians 2
-JGIG
Why would one need go to the Greek when any translation into one's own tongue is sufficient for learning all necessary as long as he is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Another interesting irony here is, why would one feel a need to go to Greek when Hebrew/Aramaic was the lingua franca in trade in the area of Israel and it surroundings. Granted Greek was more widespread, but Jesus Christ spoke Hebrew.
Another interesting irony here is, why would one feel a need to go to Greek when Hebrew/Aramaic was the lingua franca in trade in the area of Israel and it surroundings. Granted Greek was more widespread, but Jesus Christ spoke Hebrew.
Even a cursory study? The condescension is not necessary, JaumeJ, and very misplaced.
Let me ask you a question: Do you know where the doctrine of Yeshua being the 'Living Torah' comes from?
If your post is the limit of your knowledge on the subject, your studies are incomplete. I'm fully aware that one of Torah's meanings is 'instruction' (check out God's instructions/Torah after the Cross, btw, in 1 Jn. 3:23-24).
According to what you've written above, you are reducing the God of all creation to a set of instructions, and elevating a set of instructions to Godhood.
You're replacing the logos of God with the graphe of God. Do you even know why you're doing that? (not a rhetorical question - there is a reason - I just am trying to find out if you even know where that belief comes from . . . )
-JGIG
Let me ask you a question: Do you know where the doctrine of Yeshua being the 'Living Torah' comes from?
If your post is the limit of your knowledge on the subject, your studies are incomplete. I'm fully aware that one of Torah's meanings is 'instruction' (check out God's instructions/Torah after the Cross, btw, in 1 Jn. 3:23-24).
According to what you've written above, you are reducing the God of all creation to a set of instructions, and elevating a set of instructions to Godhood.
You're replacing the logos of God with the graphe of God. Do you even know why you're doing that? (not a rhetorical question - there is a reason - I just am trying to find out if you even know where that belief comes from . . . )
-JGIG
AS you judge truth as liars, when god tells us that God is one, that scripture is a unit, that all of God's children are one in the Lord, yet you put yourself out of the family of God by calling others in he family liar shows that you are not speaking truth. If you were of truth, your speech would be different.
You also put yourself outside of the way the Lord created the world by putting yourself outside of the law. You say that your world in different from the world that God created. You cannot be of Christ and outside of the world as God created it, it is not possible. God's world is created with law. You have put yourself outside of the law you say.
You also put yourself outside of the way the Lord created the world by putting yourself outside of the law. You say that your world in different from the world that God created. You cannot be of Christ and outside of the world as God created it, it is not possible. God's world is created with law. You have put yourself outside of the law you say.