Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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D
Funny how you never like to quote the last four words of Matt 5:8. As for the rest of the verses you posted, they are all a part of the Law of Christ, every one of them. None of those verses besides the first are related to the old (former) covenant.
What bizarre bible trashlation are you using that willy nilly inserts all sorts of hebrew words not found in any NT fragment? Is that not adding to the word of God? Is Hebrew better than Greek? Did God make a mistake by having the NT written in Greek?
What bizarre bible trashlation are you using that willy nilly inserts all sorts of hebrew words not found in any NT fragment? Is that not adding to the word of God? Is Hebrew better than Greek? Did God make a mistake by having the NT written in Greek?
D
Your line of questioning is absurd. You are asking her to prove God is in favor of lawlessness. We are under the law of Christ as Paul clearly delineated and we are forbidden to engage in anarchy or lawlessness. We must love God and our neighbor as Christ has loved us.
So we do not murder, steal, rape, commit adultery, lie, cheat, defame, rebel, etc, etc because these things harm our neighbor and do not honor God. Like I told you yesterday, we are under the law of Christ.
Please read this so you can stop accusing others of promulgating lawlessness.
What is the law of Christ?
H
JGIG, I read one article on your web sight from a book by Bob George: Classic Christianity. It quoted Ian Thomas in the forward : "There are those who have a life they never live." That was enough to make me sick! But, I read the message, then I was really sick. Pastor George teach a faith only, passive Christianity that teaches us to yield to Christ living His life through us and stop trying so hard to live for God. "Are you willing to surrender to the one who: gave His life for you? So He could give His life to you so He could live His life through you." That is a Gnosticism that makes me sick. We must live for God by the power God to bring glory to God. This is bad Eastern Mystic teaching ,not Bible. Love to all. Hoffco
No, I wasn't, but it crossed my and my husband's path on two fronts at the same time, so we stood up and took notice. The story of how I became aware of the HRM can be found here: How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement. There is a series of short articles there that detail the questions that arose as HRM doctrine was presented on an online digest I was a member of several years ago.
When evaluating any belief system, it always comes down to two things: Who do they say Christ Jesus is (Deity or not), and do they try to take away from or add to the Work of the Cross. After figuring out where they stand on those issues, then there was finding out where their beliefs come from, and it turns out that HRM theology draws heavily from SDA and the former Worldwide Church of God (Herbert Armstrongism), along with a picking here and there from Mormonism, JW, and even some doctrines from the old cult, The Way International. Then of course there is Judaism and Talmudic input as well as influence from the Kabbalah. Many in Law-keeping sects will tell us how they 'don't belong to' any labeled belief system, and that they are where they are from studying the Bible alone. That's a load of hooey. At some point, they've hooked up with teachers of the Law and are taught to view everything through the lens of the Law instead of the lens of the Finished Work of Christ. I assert that many adherents don't know where the teachings that they hold to come from, but, ironically will examine closely Christian history (from Law-keeping sources, of course) to find out all they can about its 'corrupt' origins. Yet they won't apply the same level of scrutiny to their own belief system.
I didn't really want to get into the fray about it - but God wouldn't leave me alone until I put JGIG together. And it's been a good thing =o). The site has provided much encouragement to friends and family of those in the HRM, and has been a good resource of grace and hope to those who have come to the end of themselves under a Law-keeping mindset.
The goal has not been so much to 'refute' the HRM as much as evaluate and build believers up in who they are in Christ, giving them the tools with which to discern not only the HRM but any belief system. I'm finding more and more that having a good handle on just what the New Covenant is and understanding the High Priesthood and Work of Christ is key in all of that. The entirety of the Word really is all about Him \o/. The result has been a deeper love for Him and a desire to share the Gospel of Grace - the Good News - more and more.
-JGIG
When evaluating any belief system, it always comes down to two things: Who do they say Christ Jesus is (Deity or not), and do they try to take away from or add to the Work of the Cross. After figuring out where they stand on those issues, then there was finding out where their beliefs come from, and it turns out that HRM theology draws heavily from SDA and the former Worldwide Church of God (Herbert Armstrongism), along with a picking here and there from Mormonism, JW, and even some doctrines from the old cult, The Way International. Then of course there is Judaism and Talmudic input as well as influence from the Kabbalah. Many in Law-keeping sects will tell us how they 'don't belong to' any labeled belief system, and that they are where they are from studying the Bible alone. That's a load of hooey. At some point, they've hooked up with teachers of the Law and are taught to view everything through the lens of the Law instead of the lens of the Finished Work of Christ. I assert that many adherents don't know where the teachings that they hold to come from, but, ironically will examine closely Christian history (from Law-keeping sources, of course) to find out all they can about its 'corrupt' origins. Yet they won't apply the same level of scrutiny to their own belief system.
I didn't really want to get into the fray about it - but God wouldn't leave me alone until I put JGIG together. And it's been a good thing =o). The site has provided much encouragement to friends and family of those in the HRM, and has been a good resource of grace and hope to those who have come to the end of themselves under a Law-keeping mindset.
The goal has not been so much to 'refute' the HRM as much as evaluate and build believers up in who they are in Christ, giving them the tools with which to discern not only the HRM but any belief system. I'm finding more and more that having a good handle on just what the New Covenant is and understanding the High Priesthood and Work of Christ is key in all of that. The entirety of the Word really is all about Him \o/. The result has been a deeper love for Him and a desire to share the Gospel of Grace - the Good News - more and more.
-JGIG
There are no articles from Bob George's book, "Classic Christianity" at JGIG, but there are links to bobgeorge.net and to the Classic Christianity website. Here's the complete text of the forward you label as 'gnostic':
There are few things quite so boring as being religious, but there is nothing quite so exciting as being a Christian!
Most folks have never discovered the difference between the one and the other, so that there are those who sincerely try to live a life they do not have, substituting religion for God, Christianity for Christ, and their own noble endeavors for the energy, joy, and power of the Holy Spirit. In the absence of reality, they can only grasp at ritual, stubbornly defending the latter in the absence of the former, lest they be found with neither!
They are lamps without oil, cars without gas, and pens without ink, baffled at their own impotence in the absence of all that alone can make man functional; for man was so engineered by God that the presence of the Creator within the creature is indispensable to His humanity. Christ gave Himself for us to give Himself to us! His presence puts God back into the man! He came that we might have life—God’s life!
There are those who have a life they never live. They have come to Christ and thanked Him only for what He did, but do not live in the power of who He is. Between the Jesus who “was” and the Jesus who “will be” they live in a spiritual vacuum, trying with no little zeal to live for Christ a life that only He can live in and through them, perpetually begging for what in Him they already have!
It is to those who try to live a life they do not have, and to those who have a life they do not live that Bob George addresses himself in these pages, vividly illustrated out of his own personal experience and that of those with whom he has counseled. Here is the truth that sets men free. This is where “the rubber hits the road,” a book full of spiritual insight and common sense, enjoyable and easy-to-read. I am convinced that many, heartily sick of the “rat race,” will in reading these pages find in the Lord Jesus Christ the final answer to their need.
There's no Gnosticism there, but a pointing to the Reality that is in Christ - Christ in us, the hope of Glory. It is in Christ where we find our peace, significance, and Who produces His Fruit through us. That is life and life more abundantly; the paradox of laboring to enter into His Rest.
There are two free audio teachings that sum up the Reality of the New Covenant and New Life in Christ by Bob George, the second one which includes the paragraphs by Major W. Ian Thomas in the broader context. Oh, and there's lots of contextual Scriptural teaching there, contrary to your accusation of "bad Eastern Mystic teaching ,not Bible":
-JGIG
There are few things quite so boring as being religious, but there is nothing quite so exciting as being a Christian!
Most folks have never discovered the difference between the one and the other, so that there are those who sincerely try to live a life they do not have, substituting religion for God, Christianity for Christ, and their own noble endeavors for the energy, joy, and power of the Holy Spirit. In the absence of reality, they can only grasp at ritual, stubbornly defending the latter in the absence of the former, lest they be found with neither!
They are lamps without oil, cars without gas, and pens without ink, baffled at their own impotence in the absence of all that alone can make man functional; for man was so engineered by God that the presence of the Creator within the creature is indispensable to His humanity. Christ gave Himself for us to give Himself to us! His presence puts God back into the man! He came that we might have life—God’s life!
There are those who have a life they never live. They have come to Christ and thanked Him only for what He did, but do not live in the power of who He is. Between the Jesus who “was” and the Jesus who “will be” they live in a spiritual vacuum, trying with no little zeal to live for Christ a life that only He can live in and through them, perpetually begging for what in Him they already have!
It is to those who try to live a life they do not have, and to those who have a life they do not live that Bob George addresses himself in these pages, vividly illustrated out of his own personal experience and that of those with whom he has counseled. Here is the truth that sets men free. This is where “the rubber hits the road,” a book full of spiritual insight and common sense, enjoyable and easy-to-read. I am convinced that many, heartily sick of the “rat race,” will in reading these pages find in the Lord Jesus Christ the final answer to their need.
There's no Gnosticism there, but a pointing to the Reality that is in Christ - Christ in us, the hope of Glory. It is in Christ where we find our peace, significance, and Who produces His Fruit through us. That is life and life more abundantly; the paradox of laboring to enter into His Rest.
There are two free audio teachings that sum up the Reality of the New Covenant and New Life in Christ by Bob George, the second one which includes the paragraphs by Major W. Ian Thomas in the broader context. Oh, and there's lots of contextual Scriptural teaching there, contrary to your accusation of "bad Eastern Mystic teaching ,not Bible":
- The New Covenant Explained – Study notes available HERE
- God’s Solution to Man’s Problem – Life! – Study notes available HERE
-JGIG
where did you come up with Yahshua? that's not his name in any language.
"Dr. Daniel Botkin explains the Hebrew linguistics of the names "Yeshua" and "Yahshua" and how "Yahshua" is a mistransliteration by Sacred Name advocates to fit an erroneous interpretation of John 5:43 and how "Yeshua" is far more accurate. He also clearly establishes the fact that the English name "Jesus" has absolutely no pagan connection and is simply a derivation of "Yesous," the Greek transliteration of "Yeshua." Most important, Dr. Botkin addresses that slander and criticism surrounding the name controversy in entirely non-Scriptural and not glorifying to the Holy One of Israel."
The Messiah's Hebrew Name: "Yeshua" Or "Yahshua"?
"Dr. Daniel Botkin explains the Hebrew linguistics of the names "Yeshua" and "Yahshua" and how "Yahshua" is a mistransliteration by Sacred Name advocates to fit an erroneous interpretation of John 5:43 and how "Yeshua" is far more accurate. He also clearly establishes the fact that the English name "Jesus" has absolutely no pagan connection and is simply a derivation of "Yesous," the Greek transliteration of "Yeshua." Most important, Dr. Botkin addresses that slander and criticism surrounding the name controversy in entirely non-Scriptural and not glorifying to the Holy One of Israel."
The Messiah's Hebrew Name: "Yeshua" Or "Yahshua"?
D
Awesome and good for you. It is a needed resource.
I have coined a phrase: "Error begats more error". satan is not happy when a person embraces a small error. So once a person accepts a small error, soon they accept more and more until their salvation is in serious jeopardy. I hang out in the bible study room and we had a man come in to that chat room claiming to be a pastor and also the only one at CC qualified to teach, a tall claim. I suspect he is neither. He began teaching members in a private bible study and many of them embraced his errors. He taught that Greek is inferior to Hebrew and the NT can not be trusted. He did claim Jesus was the Messiah, but only thru the lens of the OT. He claimed new converts should first read the OT. He claimed we must observe all the laws of the Torah except animal sacrifice. He claimed we can't please God unless we eat a kosher diet and a whole litany of Hebrewisms. In the end he led several weaker Christians to doubt the NT and NT teachings. One even rejected Christ and the NT altogether. One of his "students" teaches his garbage in the bible study room. She lists herself in her profile as being a "Non-christian". Very sad.
This man was a very bad example of the HRM but he is not alone. So thank you for you efforts.
I have coined a phrase: "Error begats more error". satan is not happy when a person embraces a small error. So once a person accepts a small error, soon they accept more and more until their salvation is in serious jeopardy. I hang out in the bible study room and we had a man come in to that chat room claiming to be a pastor and also the only one at CC qualified to teach, a tall claim. I suspect he is neither. He began teaching members in a private bible study and many of them embraced his errors. He taught that Greek is inferior to Hebrew and the NT can not be trusted. He did claim Jesus was the Messiah, but only thru the lens of the OT. He claimed new converts should first read the OT. He claimed we must observe all the laws of the Torah except animal sacrifice. He claimed we can't please God unless we eat a kosher diet and a whole litany of Hebrewisms. In the end he led several weaker Christians to doubt the NT and NT teachings. One even rejected Christ and the NT altogether. One of his "students" teaches his garbage in the bible study room. She lists herself in her profile as being a "Non-christian". Very sad.
This man was a very bad example of the HRM but he is not alone. So thank you for you efforts.
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I think this is where the worldly people have decided to attack the idea of going deeply into what God tells us in the OT. There is a new mind set in the church, one opposed to living for Christ. That is called following law. The world cannot believe that anyone could put on Christ, spiritually, accept that only Christ can forgive and lead, and still want to physically follow His ways, too. Total surrender to God would keep the world's ways out. So the world is up in arms and fighting the idea with all the venom it can muster.
They use the law as their main ammunition, for keeping any of law with the purpose of gaining salvation is not of God. By using this truth, they feel they can shoot the entire movement down and discredit everything about it.
They use the law as their main ammunition, for keeping any of law with the purpose of gaining salvation is not of God. By using this truth, they feel they can shoot the entire movement down and discredit everything about it.
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished Matt 5:18
Has all been accomplished?
Even the prophecies in Revelation, are those done?
Oh and I didnt know it was a crime to translate greek into english, Yahweh is english, Yahshua is english, both transliterations of a hebrew word, but if you look up Iosus you will see it is from Yashua/Yahoshua etc...
Oh and there is a hebrew version of Mattithyah that uses "Yahshua"...
Why no battle cry about the 6,823 times YHWH was removed from nearly every OT in print AGAINST the will and word of he Creator Himself?
No no outrage over removal of the name, just outrage over the use of the name....Pharisees did the same thing, but they would take people to tril and have them killed for using the name of Yahweh.
Micahyah (Micah) 4:5, "For all people walk each in the name of his god (430 - elohim), but we will walk in the Name of Yahweh (3068 - Yhvh) our Father forever and ever."
Mattithyah 23:39, "For I say to you: From this moment you will not see Me, until you say: Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of Yahweh!" (Ps 118:26)
Has all been accomplished?
Even the prophecies in Revelation, are those done?
Oh and I didnt know it was a crime to translate greek into english, Yahweh is english, Yahshua is english, both transliterations of a hebrew word, but if you look up Iosus you will see it is from Yashua/Yahoshua etc...
Oh and there is a hebrew version of Mattithyah that uses "Yahshua"...
Why no battle cry about the 6,823 times YHWH was removed from nearly every OT in print AGAINST the will and word of he Creator Himself?
No no outrage over removal of the name, just outrage over the use of the name....Pharisees did the same thing, but they would take people to tril and have them killed for using the name of Yahweh.
Micahyah (Micah) 4:5, "For all people walk each in the name of his god (430 - elohim), but we will walk in the Name of Yahweh (3068 - Yhvh) our Father forever and ever."
Mattithyah 23:39, "For I say to you: From this moment you will not see Me, until you say: Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of Yahweh!" (Ps 118:26)
P
Because I have accepted the sacrifice that Jesus, the Perfect Lamb of God, made for me God sees me as righteous. Before I accepted His sacrifice I was utterly sinful, now I am a new creation In Messiah. He paid ONE time for all the sins of whosoever would accept Him. I am very thankful. The law is perfect and holy but it won't make you that way, it's purpose is to turn you to Jesus.
You are listing one purpose of the law, it has many purposes. We must put on the mind of Christ to understand these purposes. There are many things it does not do, also. We need to understand these, too, and not ask the law to do what God did not design it to do. Those who ask the law to do what God did not design it to do are against Christ. Those who refuse to acknowledge or use the law as Christ asks us to are against Christ.
Those against Christ make up the bulk of Christians, and they use the law, for or against, as the base of fighting Christ. That is the root of the vicious attacks on the HRM, from both sides. One side says law keeping is the base of Christianity, the other says that all law keepers are against Christianity. Both are wrong. HRM is trying to see it from God's point of view, not from these side takers.
Those against Christ make up the bulk of Christians, and they use the law, for or against, as the base of fighting Christ. That is the root of the vicious attacks on the HRM, from both sides. One side says law keeping is the base of Christianity, the other says that all law keepers are against Christianity. Both are wrong. HRM is trying to see it from God's point of view, not from these side takers.
