Did Jesus Return in AD 70?

[GodIsSalvation]

Let's look at some of the events in the revelation and see if there is any correspondence with what happened in the 1st century AD:

(Rev 9:14 KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

(Rev 9:15 KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation is chocked full of symbol imagery but they do represent an underlying substrata.

We can place this symbolism smack in the 1st century AD and not some future event when we avail ourselves of the history of the war upon Jerusalem from the 1st century historian Josephus.

Around 67AD Vespasian and Titus his son brought the soldiers from four Roman Legions to Judea from the region of the river Euphrates through Syria to attack Judea.

Josephus in his book the Jewish Wars writes of Titus:



The troops that Titus took with were drawn largely from the the region of the Euphrates.

Tacitus writes that Antiochus of Commagene (a king) whose dominions were located on the Euphrates sent a contingent to the war. Sohemus (another king) whose territories were in the same region sent a force to work with Titus.

These Kings of the east seem to tie in with what John says here:

(Rev 16:12 KJV) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Now this loosing of the four angels would seem to correspond with the symbolic imagery described in Rev 9:14-15 by John and would represent the army of Vespasian and Titus to "to slay the third part of men" and the "drying up of the water" is symbolic imagery of the mobilization of this army with the "kings of the east".

Aye I have looked over 1st Century History a lot in my time. None of the events correspond to Revelation except perhaps the writing of the 7 Letters.

Josephus isn't John the Apostle. I trust John over Josephus, though Josephus is still a decent writer.

I am well aware of the sack of Jerusalem even before I was a Christian as Roman History is probably the ancients I have researched the most. So I can tell you quite confidently that outside the 7 Letters, there is no event that fulfills the other signs of Revelation.

In regards to the angels of Euphrates, I believe those are literal angels that will literally slay a 3rd part of men.

We shouldn't try to symbolize things that are not symbolic. Revelation explains to you the meaning of everything, except the 7 Thunders, within the book if you simply take the words as they are written without any pre-supposition.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Multitude of reasons. The 7 seals are yet to be all broken, the seven trumpets are yet to sound, the seven vials are yet to be poured out, etc.

None of the signs in Revelation occured in 70 AD, except possibly the 7 Letters, though it is also a possibility that John received the Revelation after 70 AD (scholars have pointed to John writing Revelation between 60-90 AD.) Therefore the only part of Revelation that may have occured literally is the 7 Letters. Though I personally beleive the 7 Letters are for all beleivers of all time.

The main crux of how I can tell you quite honestly the Revelation of John has not come to pass as of yet is the 6th Seal.

Scholars are all over the place with the date of the writing of the apocalypse - the problem with that is John at the front and back of the book states these things "must shortly come to pass".

IF and it's a big if , then Johns time statements are off which makes him a false prophet - "shortly come to pass" does not mean 1980+ years later - the statements are not elastic but are imminent.

Greek in italics.

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly (taxei) to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:1 (NIV) The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon (taxei) take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

(Rev 1:3 KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time (kairos) is at hand (eggus)

Rev 1:3 (NIV) Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time (kairos) is near (eggus)


Rev 2:1 (NIV) “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write....

Rev 2:5 (NIV) Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

We can see that John starts his revelation with the words "shortly come to pass" for "the time is at hand" and these things will be happening "quickly" not 1980 + years later or during seven church ages as some state.

When this letter was read at Ephesus did they think that this removal was 1980 + years later or pretty soon? You do the "math".

Jesus is telling John:

(Rev 22:7 KJV) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

(Rev 22:8 KJV) And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

(Rev 22:9 KJV) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

(Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

From the above we can see that the time is at hand and that he states I am coming quickly - as in right soon.

When I ask someone to come over to my place on the phone and they say I'll be right there or I will come quickly or swiftly I don't expect them to arrive 1980 or so years later.

 

[crossnote]

Scholars are all over the place with the date of the writing of the apocalypse - the problem with that is John at the front and back of the book states these things "must shortly come to pass" even IF and it's a big if then Johns time statements are off which makes him a false prophet - "shortly come to pass" does not mean 1980+ years later - the statements are not elastic but are imminent.

Greek in italics.

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly (taxei) to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:1 (NIV) The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon (taxei) take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

(Rev 1:3 KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time (kairos) is at hand (eggus)

Rev 1:3 (NIV) Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time (kairos) is near (eggus)


Rev 2:1 (NIV) “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write....

Rev 2:5 (NIV) Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

We can see that John starts his revelation with the words "shortly come to pass" for "the time is at hand" and these things will be happening "quickly" not 1980 + years later or during seven church ages as some state.

When this letter was read at Ephesus did they think that this removal was 1980 + years later or pretty soon? You do the "math".

Jesus is telling John:

(Rev 22:7 KJV) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

(Rev 22:8 KJV) And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

(Rev 22:9 KJV) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

(Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

From the above we can see that the time is at hand and that he states I am coming quickly - as in right soon.

When I ask someone to come over to my place on the phone and they say I'll be right there or I will come quickly or swiftly I don't expect them to arrive 1980 or so years later.

How do you know those aren't 'churches' in existence in the future just before the Tribulation?

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Aye I have looked over 1st Century History a lot in my time. None of the events correspond to Revelation except perhaps the writing of the 7 Letters.

Josephus isn't John the Apostle. I trust John over Josephus, though Josephus is still a decent writer.

I am well aware of the sack of Jerusalem even before I was a Christian as Roman History is probably the ancients I have researched the most. So I can tell you quite confidently that outside the 7 Letters, there is no event that fulfills the other signs of Revelation.

In regards to the angels of Euphrates, I believe those are literal angels that will literally slay a 3rd part of men.

We shouldn't try to symbolize things that are not symbolic. Revelation explains to you the meaning of everything, except the 7 Thunders, within the book if you simply take the words as they are written without any pre-supposition.

The whole book of revelation is full of symbols - what you need to do is sort out is what they mean according to prophetic usage - do you really think this is not symbolic?

(Mat 24:29 KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is "apocalyptic" language describing the fall of nations and their powers - in the above case it is speaking of the fall of the 1st century Jewish priesthood, its national polity and power etc.- this language is found in the old testament in describing the fall of nations.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

How do you know those aren't 'churches' in existence in the future just before the Tribulation?

I think most of them do or their offshoots - but that proves nothing.

Lets take a look at some other symbols that point to the 1st century:

(Rev 9:10 KJV) And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

(Rev 9:18 KJV) By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

(Rev 9:19 KJV) For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

(Rev 16:21 KJV) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

While being symbolic in description these "scorpions" are a good description of the Roman Armies Ballista siege engines

The ballista was an ancient missile weapon that launched a large projectile at a distant target.

The "stings in their tails" is a symbolic representation of the boulders that were launched from the rear of the ballista and flung over the machine and released - much in the same way a scorpion stings from its tail over it's body in a forward fashion.

Josephus in his Wars of the J.ews" had this to say:

The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the J.ews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent...

Josephus War, book 5 chapter 6.

Josephus is describing the stones by weight as a talent and so does the apostle John in Rev. 9:10

The "ones belonged to the tenth legion" were called scorpio or scorpions.

The scorpio or scorpion was a type of Roman artillery piece. Also known by the name of the triggerfish, it was described in detail by Vitruvius. In the progressive evolution of catapults, the next major improvement after the scorpio was the cheiroballistra.

Source wiki

It just needs a little "talent" to discern that the book of revelation was fulfilled in the Roman siege of Jerusalem in the 1st century AD.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Scholars are all over the place with the date of the writing of the apocalypse - the problem with that is John at the front and back of the book states these things "must shortly come to pass".

IF and it's a big if , then Johns time statements are off which makes him a false prophet - "shortly come to pass" does not mean 1980+ years later - the statements are not elastic but are imminent.

Greek in italics.

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly (taxei) to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:1 (NIV) The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon (taxei) take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

(Rev 1:3 KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time (kairos) is at hand (eggus)

Rev 1:3 (NIV) Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time (kairos) is near (eggus)


Rev 2:1 (NIV) “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write....

Rev 2:5 (NIV) Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

We can see that John starts his revelation with the words "shortly come to pass" for "the time is at hand" and these things will be happening "quickly" not 1980 + years later or during seven church ages as some state.

When this letter was read at Ephesus did they think that this removal was 1980 + years later or pretty soon? You do the "math".

Jesus is telling John:

(Rev 22:7 KJV) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

(Rev 22:8 KJV) And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

(Rev 22:9 KJV) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

(Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

From the above we can see that the time is at hand and that he states I am coming quickly - as in right soon.

When I ask someone to come over to my place on the phone and they say I'll be right there or I will come quickly or swiftly I don't expect them to arrive 1980 or so years later.

Ah but how short is "must shortly come to pass"?

Remember what Peter said in regards to the end of days;

2 Peter 3

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I think most of them do or their offshoots - but that proves nothing.

Lets take a look at some other symbols that point to the 1st century:

(Rev 9:10 KJV) And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

(Rev 9:18 KJV) By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

(Rev 9:19 KJV) For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

(Rev 16:21 KJV) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

While being symbolic in description these "scorpions" are a good description of the Roman Armies Ballista siege engines

The ballista was an ancient missile weapon that launched a large projectile at a distant target.

The "stings in their tails" is a symbolic representation of the boulders that were launched from the rear of the ballista and flung over the machine and released - much in the same way a scorpion stings from its tail over it's body in a forward fashion.

Josephus in his Wars of the J.ews" had this to say:



Josephus War, book 5 chapter 6.

Josephus is describing the stones by weight as a talent and so does the apostle John in Rev. 9:10

The "ones belonged to the tenth legion" were called scorpio or scorpions.



It just needs a little "talent" to discern that the book of revelation was fulfilled in the Roman siege of Jerusalem in the 1st century AD.

Again I think you are putting symbolism in where there is not meant to be any symbolism. I believe those creatures are literal and shall come out of the Bottomless Pit when it is opened.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Ive seen that Peter argument before - It does not hold water - what Peter is saying is that it does not matter whether it's a day or a thousand - His promises hold true.

And to interpret is as meaning time statements of imminence are elastic makes the statement Peter made worthless:

(1 Pet 4:7 KJV) But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

At hand does not mean 1980 + years and counting and it makes all the other at hand statements equally worthless:

(Rom 13:12 KJV) The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

(Rom 13:11 KJV) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

(Phil 4:5 KJV) Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

(Rev 1:3 KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Again I think you are putting symbolism in where there is not meant to be any symbolism. I believe those creatures are literal and shall come out of the Bottomless Pit when it is opened.

So you really think in a modern war they are going to flinging stones weighing a talent around?

 

[crossnote]

I think most of them do or their offshoots - but that proves nothing.

Lets take a look at some other symbols that point to the 1st century:

(Rev 9:10 KJV) And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

(Rev 9:18 KJV) By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

(Rev 9:19 KJV) For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

(Rev 16:21 KJV) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

While being symbolic in description these "scorpions" are a good description of the Roman Armies Ballista siege engines

The ballista was an ancient missile weapon that launched a large projectile at a distant target.

The "stings in their tails" is a symbolic representation of the boulders that were launched from the rear of the ballista and flung over the machine and released - much in the same way a scorpion stings from its tail over it's body in a forward fashion.

Josephus in his Wars of the J.ews" had this to say:



Josephus War, book 5 chapter 6.

Josephus is describing the stones by weight as a talent and so does the apostle John in Rev. 9:10

The "ones belonged to the tenth legion" were called scorpio or scorpions.



It just needs a little "talent" to discern that the book of revelation was fulfilled in the Roman siege of Jerusalem in the 1st century AD.

why symbolize armies in one place but not the other?...

And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
(Rev 19:14)

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
(Rev 19:19)

all of a sudden no locusts or scorpion language

 

[GodIsSalvation]

So you really think in a modern war they are going to flinging stones weighing a talent around?

Don't see why not, they're still throwing stones at people to this very day it is the most common weapon. Also you are pre-supposing that when the seals start breaking that technology and civilization will be at the same level as it is today. I tell you now, all this vain technology and civilization as we know it today can be set back to the Dark Ages within less than one year.

 

[Timeline]

Don't see why not, they're still throwing stones at people to this very day it is the most common weapon. Also you are pre-supposing that when the seals start breaking that technology and civilization will be at the same level as it is today. I tell you now, all this vain technology and civilization as we know it today can be set back to the Dark Ages within less than one year.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

I think the same thing about people saying that Matt 24:21-22 couldn't happen until man had Weapons of Mass Destruction. God could destroy the earth anytime He wanted/wants and doesn't need WMD to do it.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

why symbolize armies in one place but not the other?...

And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
(Rev 19:14)

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
(Rev 19:19)

all of a sudden no locusts or scorpion language

Because the whole thing is visionary and spoken of in prophetic symbols - do you think the armies of heaven are actually on white horses - or that the beast is a beast or spoken of as a beast?

(Rev 19:15 KJV) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Christ is still yielding the "sharp sword" - which is the gospel in the mouth of his people:

(Heb 4:12 KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There is a mix of symbolic language and literal language within the revelation:

(Rev 18:24 KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The above is a literal statement as Jesus accused 1st century Israel of being guilty of their blood.

I'll try and get deeper into 19:14 and 19:19 later - it's getting late here and getting close to hitting the sack time.

G'Night folks.

 

[Timeline]

Rev 1:3
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Rev 22:10
[ The Final Message ] And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 1:1
[ The Revelation of Jesus Christ ] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Rev 22:6
And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

GiS, You don't find it significant that John started and ended Revelation with "soon" and "the time is near"?
​

 

[Timeline]

I agree with the gest (is that the right word?) of what Larry is saying - that Revelation, and other prophecies were filled in the 1st century or earlier (for some), but I believe that the bible is self-fulfilling.

Luke 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

I do not believe that the scorpions were Balista siege engines or the like. I think He was talking about demons and Satan (or something like that) as He refers to in Luke 10:19.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

I think the same thing about people saying that Matt 24:21-22 couldn't happen until man had Weapons of Mass Destruction. God could destroy the earth anytime He wanted/wants and doesn't need WMD to do it.

Just a quick response here and I'm hitting the sack - when Jesus is speaking of the tribulation you have to keep mind that he's speaking to a covenant people not the whole world, there is no end of the world there is an end of the age and it was related to the end of the old covenant age/world

(Mat 24:3 KJV) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The above should read end of the age:


[TABLE="class: bibleTable"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NIV:Matt 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

(1 Cor 10:11 KJV) Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


NIV:1 cor 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come

(Heb 9:26 KJV) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

NIV:9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

You need to understand there is no end of the world only the end of the age which occured in 70AD as the above verses state.



Something messed up here with the table effect.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[GodIsSalvation]

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

I think the same thing about people saying that Matt 24:21-22 couldn't happen until man had Weapons of Mass Destruction. God could destroy the earth anytime He wanted/wants and doesn't need WMD to do it.

Indeed and agreed. I think the Nuclear Doomsday conspiracies and how they get warpped into the Bible by people is moreso to do with the culture the older folks that grew up during the Cold War. Though I understand their fright of nuclear weapons, no doubt I'd be pretty suspect of nukes too if I had to duck under a desk as a kid to pretend like that save me from a nuclear detonation.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Rev 1:3
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Rev 22:10
[ The Final Message ] And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 1:1
[ The Revelation of Jesus Christ ] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Rev 22:6
And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

GiS, You don't find it significant that John started and ended Revelation with "soon" and "the time is near"?
​

Sure I find John's statement significant.

How soon is soon though? To answer that in regards to the End of Days I defer to 2 Peter 3.

 

[Timeline]

Sure I find John's statement significant.

How soon is soon though? To answer that in regards to the End of Days I defer to 2 Peter 3.

Well, I have heard that soon means that it will all take place quickly once it begins and I can agree with that, but I believe that the time is near does mean that it happened right then. I have considered Peter's "one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. But it could apply to the thousand year reign just as easily as it could Revelation. I am not saying that the 1000 year reign was one day, but it really doesn't fit anywhere for me. I lean toward the idea that the 1000 year reign was actually 1000 years, but it is just one of the puzzles.

I truly believe that you can find the fulfillment of every prophecy in (or at least suggested) the bible. I ponder on Isaiah 34 and wonder where these are, but haven't come to any conclusive answers.


34 Draw near, O nations, to hear; and listen, O peoples!
Let the earth and all it contains hear, and the world and all that springs from it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the Lord’s indignation is against all the nations,
And His wrath against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to slaughter.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So their slain will be thrown out,
And their corpses will give off their stench,
And the mountains will be drenched with their blood.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And all the host of heaven will wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom
And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its princes will be nothing.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackalsAnd an abode of ostriches.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The hairy goat also will cry to its kind;
Yes, the night monster will settle there
And will find herself a resting place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggs there,
And it will hatch and gather them under its protection.
Yes, the hawks will be gathered there,
Every one with its kind.[SUP]16[/SUP]Seek from the book of the Lord, and read:
Not one of these will be missing;
None will lack its mate.
For His mouth has commanded,
And His Spirit has gathered them.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He has cast the lot for them,
And His hand has divided it to them by line.
They shall possess it forever;
From generation to generation they will dwell in it.

The way I see it I should be able to see what each of the animals represent, but I am at a loss. The tree snake reminds me of Eden. I tend to believe that birds often represent the spiritual world (angels and demons) but I am not even sure of that. Ostriches makes me think of the scribes and Pharisees because they are big, flightless birds that can't do much except peck at you with their "beaks" - I find that funny, but yet again inconclusive.


The sky being rolled up reminds me of Rev 6:12-17
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; [SUP]13 [/SUP]and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. [SUP]14 [/SUP]The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16 [/SUP]and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
which reminds me of the crucifixion and resurrection, but I know that you will not agree with that.

 

[Timeline]

Just a quick response here and I'm hitting the sack - when Jesus is speaking of the tribulation you have to keep mind that he's speaking to a covenant people not the whole world, there is no end of the world there is an end of the age and it was related to the end of the old covenant age/world

(Mat 24:3 KJV) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The above should read end of the age:


[TABLE="class: bibleTable"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NIV:Matt 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

(1 Cor 10:11 KJV) Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


NIV:1 cor 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come

(Heb 9:26 KJV) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

NIV:9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

You need to understand there is no end of the world only the end of the age which occured in 70AD as the above verses state.



Something messed up here with the table effect.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

You should go back and read earlier posts...I agree with this. He is definitely talking about the end of the age, not the end of the world. I just pulled that straight from the NASB, but I agree that it should say "end of the age".

I wrote some of my thoughts on this is the thread The Great Commission, but mrsouthside got upset and started this thread.