It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

Jehovah redeemeth the soul of his servants;
And none of them that take refuge in him shall be condemned. ps 34

rom 8

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. . . .

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward . . .

Shall be; not may be.

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies, who is he who condemns?

Those who on this forum want to condemn, won't have any standing at a heavenly tribunal.

none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.

What hinders you from taking refuge by trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior right now --
not as "chance-giver," but as Savior.

Kerry · Jun 28, 2014

Dude the cross will set you free and you can live victoriously. No need to hide behind false doctrine. I fear for you dude.

RickyZ · Jun 28, 2014

Is this still going? Eventually you guys must realize that you're not going to change each others minds and move on.

But what the heck, let me throw out an example:

We had a stray cat who found our doggy door and made himself at home. We took him in as our own; we fed clothed bathed and took care of it's every need. Even though it was a stray, we would never shoo it away or turn our backs on it. The cat had in effect 'eternal security' with us.

BUT - We never nailed the doggy door shut. We never made the animal our prisoner. Even tho we had committed to care for it for life, it was still free to come and go. And yes, just as it had chosen once to enter our home, it eventually did choose to exit the doggy door and left us.

It's the same way with God. OSAS demands that after we accept Christ, we become His prisoner. And that is absolutely not true. God will never shoo us away. But the doggy door remains unlocked and we are free to walk away thru it.

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

Galatians2-20 said:

Beware of bearing false witness. I am no universalist. To avoid making things up, backquote me. But I am not the topic here, it is eternal security. Ad hominem proves nothing. Now if you have an argument for or against eternal security, why don't you just post that?

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.

God so loved the world that whosoever believes . . . should have everlasting life.

"But when the kindness of God our Savior, and his love toward man, appeared, not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

The Lord Jesus is to be trusted as Savior, not as "chance-giver."

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

RickyZ said:

Doctrine is not proved by shaggy dog or shaggy cat stories.

The Word of God says:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

Kerry said:

Great post, Kerry

Cassian · Jun 28, 2014

Atwood said:

As long as this post is, nothing has yet been presented that ES/OSAS is a teaching of scripture.
I don't think this one was presented yet, but I could be incorrect. It would be interesting to see how you dismiss, change, maybe even ignore this standard OSAS text......

Jesus promised He will never leave us. OSAS proponents say Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing eternal life..
". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

First lets look at the Hebrews 13:5 text. God will judge. Will judge if you become fornicators, adulterers etc. What it means is that if one remains content that is being not in sin. Also look at the next verse, 13:6 is quoted above, it applies to this "never leave you" quote with the word so. So it is connected. "The LORD is my helper", not the covetousness (loving money). So if you keep obeying God and listening to His warnings, then He won't leave you, but if you start the practice of sin, He will leave you and you will need to repent again.

Then let's look at the quote which is a phrase from the OT.

Knowing where it comes from has some important points to know. The Lord spoke to Joshua, "I will not leave you nor forsake you" (Joshua 1:5). Before that, "He will not leave you nor forsake you" is what Moses told the people and then Moses told it to Joshua (Deut. 31:6,8). The reason Moses said this is because he just told the people that the Lord told him that he would not cross over the Jordan. Moses was giving them assurance of their crossing without him. It doesn't mean that we can do whatever we want (like being a fornicator, adulterer, or coveter), and God will never leave us.

In fact, after this word was given through Moses to the people, the Lord said this in Deut. 31:16,17 - "Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured."

We see that God said that He would forsake them because of their sin. So people should not be preaching that God will never leave you nor forsake you no matter what you do, because we just saw the truth of God saying otherwise. True, it's in Hebrews 13:5, but if you take it out of context by not mentioning the verse before and after it does not support ES. Context is major.

So much for ES.

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

newbirth said:

We are not separating anything.
We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections were there are none.
The sheep:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. Nothing conditional to the preceding coordinate declarations. 4 Things about sheep, not dependent on each other.

"If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him."
εἰ δὲ ἀπεθάνομεν σὺν Χριστῷ, πιστεύομεν ὅτι καὶ συζήσομεν αὐτῷ

Excellent verse on eternal security. There is no question of the Christian having died with Christ. If we died with Him (and we have), we shall also live with Him. As it says in Romans, We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

Rpm 6: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Let it not be so. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus [not "into water"] were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; for he that hath died is justified from sin."

Have you heard of the first class condition in Greek?

εἰ δὲ ἀπεθάνομεν σὺν Χριστῷ, πιστεύομεν ὅτι καὶ συζήσομεν αὐτῷ.

ei = if
de = but
apethanomen = we died, a past tense, indicative mood verb (not a subjunctive, like "if we should have died," or "if we may die.")

This assumes that we died and gives the necessary implication.

First Class Condition - Is considered the 'Simple Condition' and assumes that the premise (protasis) is true for the sake of argument. The protasis is formed with the helping word ei ('if') with the main verb in the indicative mood, in any tense; with any mood and tense in the apodosis.

Click to expand...

- internet quote

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

Originally Posted by Atwood

Jehovah redeemeth the soul of his servants;
And none of them that take refuge in him shall be condemned. ps 34

rom 8

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. . . .

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall berevealed to us-ward . . .

Shall be; not may be.

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies, who is he who condemns?

Those who on this forum want to condemn, won't have any standing at a heavenly tribunal.

none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.

What hinders you from taking refuge by trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior right now --
not as "chance-giver," but as Savior.

Cassian said:

Congrats, Cassian, on discussing scripture.

Cassian, did you leave out some words accidentally? What you just said is not coherent. Let's post the passage:

"Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; them that are ill-treated, as being yourselves also in the body. Let marriage be had in honor among all, and let the bed be undefiled: for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Be ye free from the love of money; content with such things as ye have: for himself hath said, I will in no wise fail thee, neither will I in any wise forsake thee. So that with good courage we say,
The Lord is my helper; I will not fear:
What shall man do unto me?"

Nothing you say negates the "I will in no wise fail thee, neither will I in any way forsake thee. The "in any way" is pretty clear. Yes, God judges fornicators. The statement says nothing about who the fornicators. Nothing about them having salvation or never having been saved. It is a general principle. King David did not lose salvation for being an adulterer, though David was severely chastised in God's judgment.

I will in no wise fail thee, neither will I in any wise forsake thee. So that with good courage we say,
The Lord is my helper; I will not fear:
What shall man do unto me?"

"So" only connects the ". . . neither will I in any wise forsake thee" to "with good courage we may say, The Lord is my helper . . . ."

The word SO does not connect to any "keep obeying." The text does not say "then He won't leave you."

Cassian, you are blatantly inserting things not in the text.
The context encourages the Christian to be free from love of money & content with what he has, for the Lord is not going to fail the Christian.

Then let's look at the quote which is a phrase from the OT.

Excellent to check out the background of the quote, Cassian

That is just you, Cassian. Now you have left proving things with scripture. Eternal Security affirms this:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

And yes, we can do whatever our born again recreated spirit wants to do, for we want to please the Lord. The promise of not being left has no condition attached, and you have no right to do so.

How tragic it is for a person who wants to be sinning, to object to the only method of escaping from sin, namely trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior. Reducing Christ to a chance-giver, is a denial that He is the Savior.

An advantage of the old King James is that one can see 2nd person singular (thou, thee).

as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee; I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee

So the prediction that the people in general will play the harlot, is irrelevant. Only those who are saved have such a promise, not the general people in Israel, nor the general people in your denomination.

So true.

The passage is a great one for Eternal security. Thanks for posting it.

Be ye free from the love of money; content with such things as ye have: for himself hath said,
I will in no wise fail thee, neither will I in any wise forsake thee."

The reader is urged to trust Christ as Savior instead of as "chance-giver."

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

Alligator said:

Alligator, your saying so proves nothing. We may contrast your unbelief with:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save his people from their sins.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

He Who began a good work in you will complete it.

QED

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

Cassian said:

As usual, you quote no scripture, but go on pontificating.

Are you or are you not a Universalist, Cassian?

newbirth · Jun 28, 2014

Atwood said:

- internet quote

You separate and change, it is not just "the sheep" He said my sheep,His sheep are believers, His sheep are hearers , his sheep are followers.

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

newbirth said:

I change nothing. Try believing God's Word.
Try trusting Christ as Savior instead of as "chance-giver"

Why don't you believe that He shall save His people from their sins?
Is it because you are not one of His people?

I am the door of the sheep. All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture. The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them: he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. . . .

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

Would You Be His Prisoner?

The love of Christ constrains me.

Sing it:

"Make me a captive, Lord;
And then I shall be free;
Force me to render up my sword & I shall conquerer be."

"Imprison me within thine arms"

Do you know that old hymn?

If the Son shall MAKE you free,
you shall be free indeed.

Galatians2-20 · Jun 28, 2014

Atwood said:

No one is bearing "false witness". I never said that you were a universalist. I simply stated that to remove faith as the prerequisite places one dangerously close to being one.

My posts are on topic. I simply pointed out a major flaw in the doctrine of unconditional eternal security (ie, once saved always saved) by using the o.p. as prime example of that flaw: placing conditions on that which you claim to be unconditional.

newbirth · Jun 28, 2014

Atwood said:

So take no chances...
the Lord Jesus must be obeyed to be the author of our eternal salvation

newbirth · Jun 28, 2014

Atwood said:

Have you read ans understood what was posted in #2732...red and blue
We are not separating anything.
We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections were there are none.
The sheep

you can't change my sheep to "the sheep")
(you cant leave out "and" he identified his sheep and )I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. Nothing conditional to the preceding coordinate declarations. 4 Things about sheep, not dependent on each other.(if they are not dependant on each other we can safely say he is not talking about sheep) lets look at the scripture...
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.(here is a requirement to be a sheep"believe" you don't believe you are not a sheep)

[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:(these are his sheep so they believe ,notice they hear and follow, that is what they who believe do)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.(them and they is referring to his sheep) Totally connected,If you can deduce from this, those who believe, hear and follow he gives them eternal life...we can move on...

nowhere did I say if ...there are requirements for being his sheep(believe ,hear and follow) and he gives his sheep eternal life you can't separate those... you really are confused... Are you saying you don't have to believe ,hear and follow to be his sheep?

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

Galatians2-20 said:

Gal, you really need to stop making up things that I never said & then accusing of me something you made up.

Eternal security is a fact of scripture.
I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.

In order to be saved one must trust the Lord Jesus as Savior -- scripture does not call his a "chance-giver," but a Savior.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
God so loved the world that He gave His monogene Son that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life" not temporary life until you foul up.

Salvation includes eternal security. Man's only responsibility in securing salvation is faith in the Lord Jesus.

RickyZ · Jun 28, 2014

Atwood said:

Lol. I knew you wouldn't disapoint me!

Such tunnel vision my friend. Such an obsession. Knowing that both conditions prevent you from seeing the big picture!

Seems thoust needest an Eye Doctor.

Atwood · Jun 28, 2014

newbirth said:

The only obedience which saves is obeying this command:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

Trust Him as the only & sufficient Savior, not as the chance-giver.

It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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