Baptism Essential to Salvation
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To be saved by obeying Christ then one obeys Christ when He said to believe, Jn 8:24; repent, Lk 13:3,5. confess, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16.
"Obey" in Heb 5:9 means exactly we are saved by obedient works.
In Rom 6;16 Paul said "Obedience unto righteousness" Each person serves one of two masters, one either serves:
1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness
I serve #2. "Faith" only rules out #2 .
God is not looking for perfect, flawless, sinless obedience but looking for a faithful obedience. Abraham was not perfectly sinless but he had an obedient faith. For NT Christians, those that are faithful in their walking in the light, even though not perfectly sinless, Christ's blood continually washes away all sins making Christians spotless, blameless per Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:14
So to be saved one must obey Christ and not obey what various religious organizations teach, such as faith only.
Re: Trying to Escape the Non-Baptism of the Thief on the Cross
It makes no difference to me if the thief was ever baptized or not for he is not an example of NT salvation. I am NOT trying to use the thief to prove that water baptism is necessary. But there are those that ARE trying to use the thief to prove water baptism is not necessary. So the onus is upon them to prove he had NEVER ever been water baptized.....and they can never prove that from the bible for the bible does not say one way of the other if he was or was not baptized.
One has not placed their faith in Christ until they have been water baptized as Christ commanded....why call ye ME Lord, Lord and DO NOT the things which I say, Lk 6:46. One cannot call Jesus "Lord" until they do what He has said to do.
Again, it does not matter if the thief on the cross was ever water baptized or not for he is NOT an example of NT salvation.
I will throw this out there also...That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:9
"Hath raised" is past tense, So NT belief requires one to believe that Christ has already been raised from the dead. When the thief was promised paradise Christ had not yet died much less been raised from the dead. So the thief could not have nor required to have the type of NT belief Rom 10:9 requires. Heb 9:16,17, Christ's NT would come in effect some time AFTER He died so the thief dide before the NT ever came into effect.
Mt 9:6, when Christ was "on earth" He had been given the power to forgive those whom He thought deserving as the thief, BUt Christ left earth some 2000 years ago, so no one today can be saved as the thief for Christ is not on earth personally forgiving sins today as He was back at the time of the thief. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago he left behind His gospel (not any religious organizations that teaches faith only) as His authority on earth and that gospel requires one to believe, repent confess and be baptized to be saved.
In Mk 16:16a Jesus made belief a prerequisite to being baptized and being baptized a prerequisite to being saved.
So in Mk 16:16 b when Jesus said "he that believeth not" that automatically includes not being baptized for the unbeliever has not, cannot be baptized
It makes no difference to me if the thief was ever baptized or not for he is not an example of NT salvation. I am NOT trying to use the thief to prove that water baptism is necessary. But there are those that ARE trying to use the thief to prove water baptism is not necessary. So the onus is upon them to prove he had NEVER ever been water baptized.....and they can never prove that from the bible for the bible does not say one way of the other if he was or was not baptized.
One has not placed their faith in Christ until they have been water baptized as Christ commanded....why call ye ME Lord, Lord and DO NOT the things which I say, Lk 6:46. One cannot call Jesus "Lord" until they do what He has said to do.
Again, it does not matter if the thief on the cross was ever water baptized or not for he is NOT an example of NT salvation.
I will throw this out there also...That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:9
"Hath raised" is past tense, So NT belief requires one to believe that Christ has already been raised from the dead. When the thief was promised paradise Christ had not yet died much less been raised from the dead. So the thief could not have nor required to have the type of NT belief Rom 10:9 requires. Heb 9:16,17, Christ's NT would come in effect some time AFTER He died so the thief dide before the NT ever came into effect.
Mt 9:6, when Christ was "on earth" He had been given the power to forgive those whom He thought deserving as the thief, BUt Christ left earth some 2000 years ago, so no one today can be saved as the thief for Christ is not on earth personally forgiving sins today as He was back at the time of the thief. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago he left behind His gospel (not any religious organizations that teaches faith only) as His authority on earth and that gospel requires one to believe, repent confess and be baptized to be saved.
In Mk 16:16a Jesus made belief a prerequisite to being baptized and being baptized a prerequisite to being saved.
So in Mk 16:16 b when Jesus said "he that believeth not" that automatically includes not being baptized for the unbeliever has not, cannot be baptized
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Hi...fresh meat....
Eph 2:8----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21--------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Since God does not contradict Himself and there is just one way to be saved,then faith INCLUDES baptism.
I have not seen where the bible ever defines baptism as "a public confession of what has already happened to us".
So that must be YOUR definition.
mooseaura said:
Well, such as in Acts 2:41, it talks about Being baptized for the remission of sins. Yes! He's talking about baptism! BUT baptism in Jesus' blood, for that is the only baptism that pardons sin. The only sin that prevents us from entering into Heaven is that sin nature we are born with (Rom. 3:23+Rom. 5:12). Eph. 2:8-9 tell us that it is by faith we are saved. Faith in His salvation to cover that sin (singular) we all have!
Please, never rely on your contemporary copies of the Scriptures. Rely on the Holy interpretations of old to get the real truth.
Hope I did help someone who was questioning! God bless
Your friend,
Moose
Please, never rely on your contemporary copies of the Scriptures. Rely on the Holy interpretations of old to get the real truth.
Hope I did help someone who was questioning! God bless
Your friend,
Moose
Those that accepted Peter's gospel message were the ones baptized. Those that rejected the gospel message were NOT baptized. So does the imply NOT being baptized is the same as rejecting the gospel message and that being baptized IS accepting the gospel message?
Acts 2:38 is a command, a binding example upon all, Jew and Gentile, as to how one is to be saved and is not some promise of a baptism made to someone unknown as in Mt 3:11.
In Mt 3:11 John is speaking to Pharisees when John says "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance..." But from Lk 7:30 the Pharisees REJECTED John's baptism. So why would John say to these Pharisees "I baptize YOU with water" when he had NOT done so? That tells me John is using the pronouns "you" in a generic sense, he is not specifically referring to or making a specific promise to anyone.
"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink" is an old saying. The pronouns "you" in this saying do not refer to anyone specifically but are used generically. So John was not promising anyone specifically those baptisms but was simply announcing the type of baptism he baptized with and the type of baptism Christ would baptize with.
So it cannot be seen from the immediate context of Mt 3:11 exactly who the "you" refer to but one can look at the fulfillment of John's words in Acts 1:1-5 where Jesus even references these word of John as seen that it is the apostles that Christ would baptize with the HS.
You don't have to apologize to any one friend ...the scripture says...
1 Peter 1:15
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
1 Peter 1:15
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Last time:
1) Peter is talking to "THEM" and he tells his subject "them' to repent and be baptized. Since Peter is speaking to the same "them" then the number DOES NOT MATTER for the same people he told to repent he told to be baptized.
In 1 Cor 16:1,2 Paul is addressing the church at Corinth and in verse 1 he refers to them by the plural "ye" In verse 2 he refers to them by the singular "each of you" He addresses the same people by both a plural and singular yet they are all still to lay by in store.
2) The verbs repent and be baptized are connect by the conjunction "and" which has a connecting power or force meaning the two cannot be separated. So BOTH verbs are followed by the modifying by the phrase "for remission of sins". Just by looking at this one verse and since there was no puncutuation used, it cannot be told if both verbs or just baptized is modified by the phase "remission of sins". You are trying to ignore the "and" and separate the two by putting repenting in front of the modifier and baptism behind the modifer.
3) both verbs are in the imperative mood. Even if the modifier "for the remission" was not in the verse the imperative alone would make both necessary to salvation for not doing them would be disobedience/sin/unrighteousness.
4) I read Biesner's argument on line and others, and I see they want people to ignore the "you"......"and be baptized every one of you" They do not discuss that the YOU is PLURAL and its antescedant is 'baptized each one"
So the verse could read "You all repent and you all be baptized each one individually for remission of sins". The singular individual, each one shows there is no proxy baptism, all of each person must be baptized
1) Peter is talking to "THEM" and he tells his subject "them' to repent and be baptized. Since Peter is speaking to the same "them" then the number DOES NOT MATTER for the same people he told to repent he told to be baptized.
In 1 Cor 16:1,2 Paul is addressing the church at Corinth and in verse 1 he refers to them by the plural "ye" In verse 2 he refers to them by the singular "each of you" He addresses the same people by both a plural and singular yet they are all still to lay by in store.
2) The verbs repent and be baptized are connect by the conjunction "and" which has a connecting power or force meaning the two cannot be separated. So BOTH verbs are followed by the modifying by the phrase "for remission of sins". Just by looking at this one verse and since there was no puncutuation used, it cannot be told if both verbs or just baptized is modified by the phase "remission of sins". You are trying to ignore the "and" and separate the two by putting repenting in front of the modifier and baptism behind the modifer.
3) both verbs are in the imperative mood. Even if the modifier "for the remission" was not in the verse the imperative alone would make both necessary to salvation for not doing them would be disobedience/sin/unrighteousness.
4) I read Biesner's argument on line and others, and I see they want people to ignore the "you"......"and be baptized every one of you" They do not discuss that the YOU is PLURAL and its antescedant is 'baptized each one"
So the verse could read "You all repent and you all be baptized each one individually for remission of sins". The singular individual, each one shows there is no proxy baptism, all of each person must be baptized
The Bible says "..believe and be saved" but you say believe and still lost until you accomplish a list of additional requirements after we believe. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, is not condemned, has everlasting life, receives remission of sins, shall be saved (John 3:16,18,36; Acts 10:43; 16:31) but you say believing is insufficient which is really saying that Christ's finished work of redemption is insufficient to save you as He is the object of our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in receiving salvation. You believe/have faith in "water and works" and not exclusively in Him, so you don't believe in Him which means you have not yet repented either. Whatever we are trusting in for salvation, that's what we BELIEVE/HAVE FAITH IN.
Repent precedes believe in Him/believe the gospel to receive eternal life. Repent and believe the gospel. It's not believe the gospel then repent afterward to become saved. Repentance is a change of mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us along with changing our mind about any form of self-trust in human works, religious tradition, etc. followed by a trust in the finished work of Christ which alone has the power to save us. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ to save us or else we are 100% lost.
As I already explained in a previous post, in Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him alone for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:22-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
In Romans 10:9-10, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead is not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. 1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" from a check list of steps not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
*Romans 10:10 says confession is made unto salvation, yet your formula says, confession is not made unto salvation, but unto baptism, which is then made unto salvation, in contradiction to Romans 10:10.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
So the 4 step formula of mere "mental assent" belief + self reformation + lip service confession + water baptism does not = salvation. It equals unbelief. Faith in Christ alone for salvation = saving belief.
Is that what Paul said in Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9? So how many works must we accomplish and add to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? Show me where the Bible says "saved by works." Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?
When we place our faith in Christ for salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." You left out "servants of obedience" unto righteousness. Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness. In Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between servants. We are either servants of sin unto death (lost-unbelievers) or else we are servants of obedience unto righteousness (saved-believers). If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved based on our obedience/works then he simply would have said in Ephesians 2:8 that we have been saved through faith and obedience. In Romans 5:1, Paul would have said that we have been justifed by faith and obedience, but of course, that is not what Paul said.
Believers serve Christ because they are saved, not to become saved. You have the cart before the horse. Believers don't serve Christ their entire lives as lost unbelievers in order to some day finally become saved by works. What James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith that produces no works. That is not what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8,9). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple!
You need to read verse 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6-7 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7.
Salvation by works is not obeying Christ. Who teaches faith only, per James? What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (vs. 14). What kind of faith is an empty profession of faith? A dead faith. By the way, James DOES NOT teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. I will SHOW you my faith by my works. Show, not establish. Big difference! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). This is the balance that you have out of balance.
Repent precedes believe in Him/believe the gospel to receive eternal life. Repent and believe the gospel. It's not believe the gospel then repent afterward to become saved. Repentance is a change of mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us along with changing our mind about any form of self-trust in human works, religious tradition, etc. followed by a trust in the finished work of Christ which alone has the power to save us. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ to save us or else we are 100% lost.
As I already explained in a previous post, in Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him alone for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:22-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
In Romans 10:9-10, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead is not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. 1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" from a check list of steps not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
*Romans 10:10 says confession is made unto salvation, yet your formula says, confession is not made unto salvation, but unto baptism, which is then made unto salvation, in contradiction to Romans 10:10.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
So the 4 step formula of mere "mental assent" belief + self reformation + lip service confession + water baptism does not = salvation. It equals unbelief. Faith in Christ alone for salvation = saving belief.
Is that what Paul said in Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9? So how many works must we accomplish and add to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? Show me where the Bible says "saved by works." Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?
When we place our faith in Christ for salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." You left out "servants of obedience" unto righteousness. Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness. In Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between servants. We are either servants of sin unto death (lost-unbelievers) or else we are servants of obedience unto righteousness (saved-believers). If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved based on our obedience/works then he simply would have said in Ephesians 2:8 that we have been saved through faith and obedience. In Romans 5:1, Paul would have said that we have been justifed by faith and obedience, but of course, that is not what Paul said.
Believers serve Christ because they are saved, not to become saved. You have the cart before the horse. Believers don't serve Christ their entire lives as lost unbelievers in order to some day finally become saved by works. What James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith that produces no works. That is not what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8,9). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple!
You need to read verse 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6-7 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7.
Salvation by works is not obeying Christ. Who teaches faith only, per James? What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (vs. 14). What kind of faith is an empty profession of faith? A dead faith. By the way, James DOES NOT teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. I will SHOW you my faith by my works. Show, not establish. Big difference! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). This is the balance that you have out of balance.
Re: Trying to Escape the Non-Baptism of the Thief on the Cross
In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized. Very clear to me.
I see that once again you have dodged my question - Does "..baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" in Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3 mean that baptism is "in order to obtain" the remission of sins or that baptism is "in regards to" the remission of sins received upon repentance? Be careful, this was under the old law. The church of Christ teaches that water baptism was not necessary for salvation under the old law but is under the new law (in order to get around the thief on the cross being saved through faith apart from water baptism) but it doesn't work.
What???!!! We go into the waters of baptism without faith and come up out of the water with faith? I almost fell out of my chair when I read that! Does your church baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers? We place our faith in Christ for salvation and then afterwards we get water baptized. Believers do the things that Christ says because they are saved.
Before the cross - Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6). ..believe and be saved (Luke 8:12). Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, is not condemned, has everlasting life (John 3:16,18,36). After the cross - Whoever believes in Him/believe in the Lord Jesus Christ receives remission of sins, is justified from all things, shall be saved (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). In the OT and the NT salvation is through FAITH.
So the thief could only look forward to this and not back at this? So what is OT belief vs. NT belief? Did the content of what is to be believed change from the OT to the NT? Is that what you are saying? Or do you also add more works for salvation in the NT?
Christ's gospel is the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel?
Those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of choosing to believe the gospel "repent and believe the gospel" and have confessed with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead. Romans 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation BEFORE water baptism. Water baptism follows saving faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47; 11;17,18).
Since Jesus clarifies the first clause with “but he who does not believe will be condemned,” then baptism signifies salvation and is not a prerequisite to being saved. What did Jesus say is a prerequisite for salvation in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? BELIEVES. What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
This is flawed logic. There are many people who have been water baptized but do not truly BELIEVE. They may believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ but they don't BELIEVE/TRUST IN HIM ALONE FOR SALVATION.
In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized. Very clear to me.
I see that once again you have dodged my question - Does "..baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" in Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3 mean that baptism is "in order to obtain" the remission of sins or that baptism is "in regards to" the remission of sins received upon repentance? Be careful, this was under the old law. The church of Christ teaches that water baptism was not necessary for salvation under the old law but is under the new law (in order to get around the thief on the cross being saved through faith apart from water baptism) but it doesn't work.
What???!!! We go into the waters of baptism without faith and come up out of the water with faith? I almost fell out of my chair when I read that! Does your church baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers? We place our faith in Christ for salvation and then afterwards we get water baptized. Believers do the things that Christ says because they are saved.
Before the cross - Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6). ..believe and be saved (Luke 8:12). Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, is not condemned, has everlasting life (John 3:16,18,36). After the cross - Whoever believes in Him/believe in the Lord Jesus Christ receives remission of sins, is justified from all things, shall be saved (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). In the OT and the NT salvation is through FAITH.
So the thief could only look forward to this and not back at this? So what is OT belief vs. NT belief? Did the content of what is to be believed change from the OT to the NT? Is that what you are saying? Or do you also add more works for salvation in the NT?
Christ's gospel is the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel?
Those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of choosing to believe the gospel "repent and believe the gospel" and have confessed with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead. Romans 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation BEFORE water baptism. Water baptism follows saving faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47; 11;17,18).
Since Jesus clarifies the first clause with “but he who does not believe will be condemned,” then baptism signifies salvation and is not a prerequisite to being saved. What did Jesus say is a prerequisite for salvation in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? BELIEVES. What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
This is flawed logic. There are many people who have been water baptized but do not truly BELIEVE. They may believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ but they don't BELIEVE/TRUST IN HIM ALONE FOR SALVATION.
Last time: In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.
The Greek rule regarding agreement between verbs and pronouns requires that the remission of sins be connected with repentance, not with baptism.
The fundamental question is this - to which verb, the verb "repent," or the verb "be baptized," does the prepositional phrase "for the remission of your sins" refer to or connect? That is the $64, 000 question.
First, lets talk about the ANTECEDENT OF humon or the pronoun "your" in English. What is the antecedent of this pronoun? In order to answer this, we must first note that there are two main clauses preceding the prepositional phrase.
Though both leading clauses are imperatives, they are not identical, for the first clause, "repent ye" (including both verb and pronoun), is second person plural, while the second clause, "each one of you be baptized" (including both verb and pronoun), is third person singular. Thus, there is a change of both person and number between the verbs and pronouns in these two clauses.
In the prepositional phrase, "for the remission or YOUR sins," the pronoun “your” is second person plural. The effect of this change from second person plural to third person singular, and then back again to second person plural, shows that the phrase connects directly with the command to “repent.”
Essentially what you have is - “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular).” Or, “You all repent for the forgiveness of all of your sins, and let each one of you be baptized.”
Acts 2:38 has two occurrences of the pronoun "your" or "humon"; both are second person plural in the genitive case. The first occurs in the phrase "each of you," in which humon functions as a partitive genitive, indicating the group from which each person derives. The second occurrence is in the phrase "for the remission of your sins," in which humon is a subjective genitive indicating whose sins are involved in the remission.
The basic rule of concord, in Greek, stipulates that a personal pronoun (in this case humon) agrees with its antecedent in gender and number.
The concord between verb and pronoun requires that the remission of sins be connected with repentance, not with baptism.
If one associates forgiveness with baptism, the verse translated into English, with due accord to person and number, would read like this, "let him [third singular] be baptized for the remission of your [second plural] sins." But, such an interpretation or translation would be supporting an absurdity. It would be affirming that an individual's baptism remitted the sin of others, in this case, that of the Pentecostal penitents, or of the crowd, as a group.
The structure of Acts 2:38 illustrates that the command to be baptized is parenthetical and is not syntactically connected to remission of sins. When Peter commanded the people to repent, he was speaking to the crowd. Then the command to be baptized was directed to each individual. In the "remission of your sins" phrase, Peter again directed his words to the crowd collectively.
The issue in Acts 2:38 is that of agreement between the personal pronoun humon and its antecedent.
One must not impose English word order rules on the Greek text. In English the phrase "for the forgiveness of your sins" may be connected to either "repent," "be baptized," or both. However, in the Greek it cannot be so.
In Acts 2:38, repentance is the means of receiving forgiveness and baptism is done in reference to repentance and forgiveness.
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43? Believed, received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism? It followed AFTERWARDS.
Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
The Greek rule regarding agreement between verbs and pronouns requires that the remission of sins be connected with repentance, not with baptism.
The fundamental question is this - to which verb, the verb "repent," or the verb "be baptized," does the prepositional phrase "for the remission of your sins" refer to or connect? That is the $64, 000 question.
First, lets talk about the ANTECEDENT OF humon or the pronoun "your" in English. What is the antecedent of this pronoun? In order to answer this, we must first note that there are two main clauses preceding the prepositional phrase.
Though both leading clauses are imperatives, they are not identical, for the first clause, "repent ye" (including both verb and pronoun), is second person plural, while the second clause, "each one of you be baptized" (including both verb and pronoun), is third person singular. Thus, there is a change of both person and number between the verbs and pronouns in these two clauses.
In the prepositional phrase, "for the remission or YOUR sins," the pronoun “your” is second person plural. The effect of this change from second person plural to third person singular, and then back again to second person plural, shows that the phrase connects directly with the command to “repent.”
Essentially what you have is - “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular).” Or, “You all repent for the forgiveness of all of your sins, and let each one of you be baptized.”
Acts 2:38 has two occurrences of the pronoun "your" or "humon"; both are second person plural in the genitive case. The first occurs in the phrase "each of you," in which humon functions as a partitive genitive, indicating the group from which each person derives. The second occurrence is in the phrase "for the remission of your sins," in which humon is a subjective genitive indicating whose sins are involved in the remission.
The basic rule of concord, in Greek, stipulates that a personal pronoun (in this case humon) agrees with its antecedent in gender and number.
The concord between verb and pronoun requires that the remission of sins be connected with repentance, not with baptism.
If one associates forgiveness with baptism, the verse translated into English, with due accord to person and number, would read like this, "let him [third singular] be baptized for the remission of your [second plural] sins." But, such an interpretation or translation would be supporting an absurdity. It would be affirming that an individual's baptism remitted the sin of others, in this case, that of the Pentecostal penitents, or of the crowd, as a group.
The structure of Acts 2:38 illustrates that the command to be baptized is parenthetical and is not syntactically connected to remission of sins. When Peter commanded the people to repent, he was speaking to the crowd. Then the command to be baptized was directed to each individual. In the "remission of your sins" phrase, Peter again directed his words to the crowd collectively.
The issue in Acts 2:38 is that of agreement between the personal pronoun humon and its antecedent.
One must not impose English word order rules on the Greek text. In English the phrase "for the forgiveness of your sins" may be connected to either "repent," "be baptized," or both. However, in the Greek it cannot be so.
In Acts 2:38, repentance is the means of receiving forgiveness and baptism is done in reference to repentance and forgiveness.
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43? Believed, received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism? It followed AFTERWARDS.
Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
Okay, then so do you not believe that when he went to the cross he died for the sin of all mankind, and by his death he cleansed the deck for any that come to belief are made anew in Spirit and truth, dead to self flesh and blood, we die daily to our own self flesh and blood, So that we walk in Spirit and truth with Father
Tell me can Father be worshiped any other way than in Spirit and truth, today, what does Father seek?
Tell me can Father be worshiped any other way than in Spirit and truth, today, what does Father seek?
No problem newbirth, maybe time to mature, scripture is the below scripture trute or not, whether one sins or not, are we by God still forgiven or not?
Romans 3:25 [Full Chapter]
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
1 John 2 [Full Chapter]
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. [ Love and Hatred for Fellow Believers ] We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. ...
Commandsment to believe and trust God only as Christ did
[h=1]1 John 2:12New International Version (NIV)[/h] [h=3]Reasons for Writing[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]I am writing to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
The above is stated in past tense, is it not?
And i do not promote to take this for granted and sin all the more, rather to trust God to teach us to stop by faith in God's finished work for us in appreciation and response in love back
Romans 3:25 [Full Chapter]
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
1 John 2 [Full Chapter]
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. [ Love and Hatred for Fellow Believers ] We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. ...
Commandsment to believe and trust God only as Christ did
[h=1]1 John 2:12New International Version (NIV)[/h] [h=3]Reasons for Writing[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]I am writing to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
The above is stated in past tense, is it not?
And i do not promote to take this for granted and sin all the more, rather to trust God to teach us to stop by faith in God's finished work for us in appreciation and response in love back
I am so sorry for you in your self righteous works, I was there once and got buffeted and it hurt deeply, praying you do not have to be buffeted, but know if so it is for your good, I trust God to do God's Job in your redemption that God has past tense already done for you, that you are apparently not trusting in 100% as that is what Christ trusted in and not man
Praying for you to be taught truth over error and be set free form the self works program you are attached to. If I am wrong i trust god to buffet me. This is what I see from all your posts, are you from "The Church of Christ" by any chance?
No problem if you are, yet that is their doctrine, that no one is saved until, they water Baptize you or anyone
And if you are water Baptized anywhere else you are still not saved. Is this you please answer truthfully, I know God will not stop loving you as neither will I, why?
Because God forgave all at the cross and is not holding anyone's sins against them, and that is such good news I replied. thank you and now please teach me.
Ad I got taught I am saved by his resurrected life in Spirit and truth, praying God will show you this trurth
Praying for you to be taught truth over error and be set free form the self works program you are attached to. If I am wrong i trust god to buffet me. This is what I see from all your posts, are you from "The Church of Christ" by any chance?
No problem if you are, yet that is their doctrine, that no one is saved until, they water Baptize you or anyone
And if you are water Baptized anywhere else you are still not saved. Is this you please answer truthfully, I know God will not stop loving you as neither will I, why?
Because God forgave all at the cross and is not holding anyone's sins against them, and that is such good news I replied. thank you and now please teach me.
Ad I got taught I am saved by his resurrected life in Spirit and truth, praying God will show you this trurth