Baptism Essential to Salvation

[eternally-gratefull]

Good point, you got me. I never thought of that.

it was a bad point.

No one in the OT was saved by the law. or any work of the law. So his point is valid. He is claiming God is holding the NT believers to works. when the OT believers were saved by faith apart from works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, we can agree to disagree, as IMHO, only in a cult do all persons agree on everything; certainly we may disagree on the interpretation of one verse.

But I think if you investigate, you may realize that ad sensum constructions are common. (You may wish to Google ad sensum). The same group can be referred to differently.

Since the Baptism of the Spirit puts one into the Body of Christ, with the understanding that this baptism places the believer into Christ in His crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and seating in Heaven (so that believers are co-crucified, co-risen, co-ascended, and seated with Christ in Heaven), Spirit Baptism appears to be salvific. This agrees with Romans 6 where baptism into Christ crucifies the Old Man. Translating eis as because of, though I believe endorsed by Mantey of Dana & Mantey fame (Syntax text), is a difficult translation for eis (into, unto literally). Eis makes good sense in its normal meaning with Repent & be baptized. The Repentance (metanoia, change from nonbelief to belief) will have 2 results: 1) the Spirit baptism and 2) the remission of sins. It is repentance which results in both this baptism and the remission of sins.

"Hit yourself in the nose and be bruised." I don't think it is hard to find examples where and (kai) joins a 2nd verb which is the result of the first verb. "Repent and be baptized," then is understood as Repent causing the be baptized. Taking this baptism to be Spirit baptism makes more sense than water baptism when you view the baptism as the result of the repentance. We know that all who repent are Spirit baptized.

So try my interpretation on for size, at least:
Repent is the essential factor. Spirit baptism results from that repentance as does remission of sins.

I think it possible, but less likely that Acts 2:38 means that the whole process of repent & Spirit baptism leads to remission of sins.

we agree HS baptism is what saves, It is the washing of titus 3: 5. The spiritual circumcision of Col 2. The spiritual baptism of rom 6 and 1 cor 12 among others.

but like I said, Baptize in acts 2 was a command, you can't command someone to be baptized in the spirit as it occures immediately upon repenting and faith in Christ to recieve his gift.

 

[MooseAura]

A real problem among this thread I've so plainly seen, is wrong doctrine!! I'm young, so what? Bash me if you want to, but WHERE is the word of God here?

I see many NIV references, ASV, CLV, etc... where is God's word? I hate to see such watered down doctrine due to contemporary interpretations! If you look in a KJV Bible (the closest English interpretation to the original manuscripts), then the flaws of these arguments here are so manifest it's frustrating!

Many things come into play when all of us here are bringing verses of out their context to make a point.

1) The context!!! This changes everything about the verse. Whether it mentions the flesh, or filth, or sin, the Verses and surrounding theme can influence the entire interpretation of a verse. When pulling a verse out of context, please, know and understand it's context!

2) God does not contradict himself. If He did, then it would be a lie, and a lie is a sin. Thus, He would be imperfect, and that is an impossible possibility. So, if ever pointing out scriptures and "explaining" what you "know" it means, be sure that you're not misinterpreting it. Do so to prevent not only yourself from faltering His Word, but to preserve His glory!

3) Salvation is of faith.

In the bible, Baptism is seen alongside occurrences where beings are saved, correct? That is because baptism is a public confession, of what has already happened to us. When we are saved, we are washed in Jesus' blood. The blood shed for us on Calvary covers us and pardons that sin nature (curse) we are all born with (because of Adam - Rom. 5:12).

Well, such as in Acts 2:41, it talks about Being baptized for the remission of sins. Yes! He's talking about baptism! BUT baptism in Jesus' blood, for that is the only baptism that pardons sin. The only sin that prevents us from entering into Heaven is that sin nature we are born with (Rom. 3:23+Rom. 5:12). Eph. 2:8-9 tell us that it is by faith we are saved. Faith in His salvation to cover that sin (singular) we all have!

Please, never rely on your contemporary copies of the Scriptures. Rely on the Holy interpretations of old to get the real truth.

Hope I did help someone who was questioning! God bless

Your friend,
Moose

 

[Ugly]

Oh... KJV onlyist. That explains a lot. Not worth the effort now, or in the future, to discuss anything with you.

 

[MooseAura]

Oh... KJV onlyist. That explains a lot. Not worth the effort now, or in the future, to discuss anything with you.

Sorry to disappoint. No siirrr, I do not at all believe with changing around His Word. I'm pretty sure it was perfect when He spoke it, and that's why it says what it does. I'm very glad there are people that love it enough to "break it down" into "simpler terms" nowadays! But I do not believe in worshipping their books as if they are Jesus' words themselves. The NIV is different from the KJV. Very. The changed terminology in it changes every context and detail. In the KJV, the words with hold the very meaning of their Hebrew origin. And if you say that "Even back then they added things," it's a very fun fact, (I loved it when I learned this because I had that same doubt!) But the italicized words in the KJV signify the added words that were placed to make sense of the translation from Hebrew to English.

So, the KJV has the exact same words that Jesus spoke, and taught with. So yes, I apologize if I'm a fan of preserving the literal Word of God.

 

[newbirth]

A real problem among this thread I've so plainly seen, is wrong doctrine!! I'm young, so what? Bash me if you want to, but WHERE is the word of God here?

I see many NIV references, ASV, CLV, etc... where is God's word? I hate to see such watered down doctrine due to contemporary interpretations! If you look in a KJV Bible (the closest English interpretation to the original manuscripts), then the flaws of these arguments here are so manifest it's frustrating!


Well, such as in Acts 2:41, it talks about Being baptized for the remission of sins. Yes! He's talking about baptism! BUT baptism in Jesus' blood, for that is the only baptism that pardons sin. The only sin that prevents us from entering into Heaven is that sin nature we are born with (Rom. 3:23+Rom. 5:12)

. Eph. 2:8-9 tell us that it is by faith we are saved. Faith in His salvation to cover that sin (singular) we all have!

[h=1][/h] [SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Your friend,
Moose

I understand what you mean but we are all human beings...so when you make a mistake like ...Eph. 2:8-9 tell us that it is by faith we are saved......I remember I used to make it too...

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Trying to Escape the Non-Baptism of the Thief on the Cross

That whole argument of yours about the thief was based upon the "CLAIM" the thief had not been baptized. So if you cannot prove the thief had never been water baptized, then that argument fails.

How do you know that the thief was not among those in Mk 1:5 that was water baptized?

The thief was not hanging on that cross all his life

Luke tells us the thief knew there was a God and that God was to be feared, The thief knew Christ was an innocent man and the thief knew that the cross would not be the end of Christ that Christ would have a kingdom and the thief knew he needed to be in that kingdom. The thief knew as much or more about Christ than some of Christ's own disciples. So it could be possible the thief was once a disciple himself but fell away into a life of crime.

First you say that the thief is not an example of NT salvation and now you are saying that MAYBE he was already baptized? You have to cover all the bases just in case, right? So you believe that that thief may have been converted, was water baptized, and the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

God WILL NOT save the unbaptized.

So if someone places their faith in Christ for salvation but dies before having the opportunity to get water baptized (like the thief on the cross), God will not save them? The Bible says he who believes in Him is not condemned but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not been water baptized? NO! Because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18). Now show me where the Bible says whoever is not water baptized will not be saved/will be condemned.

 

[homwardbound]

lets see, dont you believe there are something like 16 gospels, or,is it 24, I forget. Which one does this opinion belong under, And we haven't even talked about all the dispensations yet, wow this could get complicated.

There is only one, that is through Christ our propitiation for any and all sins past. It is done, because as soon as any sin is past it is forgiven done
Romans 3:25
whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

A done deal, before you were ever even boprn

1 John 2:2
and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

John 19:30 [Full Chapter]
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Only one way, one truth to:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

you can add as many Gospels as you choose yet there is only one, in Christ to Father it is found, once you see it is finished by Christ for you to come to glory in thanksgiving and praise.
Nothing you can do or not do to change this Fact. it is not a brag just fact

 

[homwardbound]

In the end are we saved by the sacraments even though they are necesary but in the end what deems us saved ?

God, Christ's Father, who by belief in Christ is our Father, if we believe he did come to give us life more abundantly, and see that by the cross the enemy is killed by his death for us in our stead. Then new life is ready to be seen by the resurrected Christ that Father raised from the dead, think we are left alone or that Father raises us as well in Spirit and truth, the same as Christ, hmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think so it is a gift right?
Now since it is a gift, adding anything as have to do this or that, makes it a work right?
So is work a gift, or is gift a work?

Are we the creation or the creator?
When first born are we born as if we are a God? Just look at this world does it not create, and take credit for what it does?

Born again, who responds to who when born again?
Us the new creation in Spirit and truth? do we respond to God or does God respond to us?
When one gets water Baptized, with whatever reason, except God calling that one to be, what is expected?
God to respond to them?

 

[homwardbound]

Why would it be foolish when in all the NT it was only the apostles Christ promised baptism with the HS?, Acts 1:1-5? Acts 1:1-5 is the fulfillment of John's words of Mt 3:11.
People want to ASSUME themselves being the "you" in Mt 3:11 for no other reason than to try to find a way around the necessity of water baptism.

I am so sorry here by your post that you are or have not experienced the born again life here in the present day as is waht Christ came to give us, in John 10:10
the thief has stopped you, cold and all you have is your works, and by your works or anyone else's besides Christ's, we in the flesh stand condemned
For all sin is condemned to flesh, carnal nature Romans 8:3 states so
praying for you. Might be good to read Roman 6,7, and 8 to find that flesh and Spirit are enemies, and the no flesh no effort you make or anyone else makes will save you, me or anyone
Just for you to ponder, think about sow on
God does just love you

 

[homwardbound]

No. I wish that was the case but just because you are born again does not mean that you do whatever God tells you. It means you "SHOULD" do whatever God tells you. But we still have a fallen nature, and we still have our own will that we have to submit to God and we don't always do what we "SHOULD."

No, God is not a tyrannt. I know how deep his love is. His love is deep enough that he would make a way for me to be saved, yet he won't force me to do it. That is true love.

So then, maybe it is time to be nothing more that a responder and quit the initiator business that is of this world, in all its good looking gloss that is only fools gold? Works salvation masquerading as if saved by its works as proof one is saved, when all done at the end God reveals who is who, and oh boy I am sure of this, what a surprise it will be as he (God) says go away you who were never mine, and you hear, but Lord I did this and this and that all in your name, many came to belief

and there it is and God says go away, you who work iniquity. Now I am not saying this be you, for only god knows and you know, if this is so with you, time to repent to belief and give up self, if not; it's your conscious choice; this is right now at the forefront to make the choice, yet God and I still just love you to repentance and thus be dead to that pesky flesh with Christ at the cross, so that you might see the new life in the resurrected Christ for you from Father to you? here and now
Phil 3:10-11 a good read to read it from verse 1

 

[mailmandan]

Christ requires obedience to Him for one to be saved, Heb 5:9

Which acts of obedience is salvation a consequence of? Is obedience a consequence of salvation? Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists (including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Restorationists) use this verse to support salvation by works, which is not salvation through believing in Him/faith and is not obeying Him (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9).

So you believe that the word "obey" in Hebrews 5:9 means that we are saved by obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless and perfect? All sin is disobedience and nobody is sinless, without fault or defect, flawless.

In Romans 10:16, we read: *But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel/obey Christ by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4).

Without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers (those who have not placed their faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation) do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience (which is stained with sin) that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh. There are many deceived religious people who believe they obey Christ but are merely "obeying their church" in a futile attempt to merit eternal life based on their works.

 

[homwardbound]

I am not baptized and you know that is my choice and it is not required

So you then do believe right? Cool if so, and hallelujah to you if so>
I say that because I do not know you, and trust God if do, will save you as has by believing God alone through Son Christ
Is that true what I said and asked?
And do you believe in exercising Faith, as in it is finished by Christ you are forgiven to get new life in Spirit and truth then, and have got this?

 

[homwardbound]

YOU was created by GOD and for that purpose I am of GOD and GOD knows ME, dipped in water or chocolate, if I smell different and taste different and I look different I always sound the same...GOD knows ME....Communication with GOD is not through the flesh but through that which is not...water from the earth does nothing for My knowing GOD. I know GOD and water had no part. """I KNOW GOD! Wanna grab a scripture to prove that wrong....""""

Well, nope, not here to say you must or must not, I see water Baptized as a good conscience to God and me, and this is for all others that see this as well, in response to God in thanksgiving and praise
Hope for you to see this and respond to God not me or anyone else here. Ultimately it is up and between God and you alone

 

[mailmandan]

I am so sorry here by your post that you are or have not experienced the born again life here in the present day as is waht Christ came to give us, in John 10:10 the thief has stopped you, cold and all you have is your works, and by your works or anyone else's besides Christ's, we in the flesh stand condemned.

Amen! That salvation is through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand, it's just hard for SeaBass to ACCEPT. It is tragic that human pride will not allow him to come to Christ. His hands are full of his works and he will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

 

[homwardbound]

God commanded no such thing

Does God desire for you tom believe God?
And when you say you do believe God, I ask then do you exercise your belief?

 

[homwardbound]

God is the one that commanded water baptism. The fact God commanded makes it necessary if for no other reason.

So you did it out of command then, okay
I did it out of response to Father in thanksgiving and praise to Father by the Christ

 

[homwardbound]

The case of Cornelius does not change the order of verses as Acts 2:38 and Mk 16;16 that put baptism BEFORE salvation else one is creating contradictions among verses.

Baptism with the HS does not save/remit sins and it had nothing to do with Cornelious' personal salvation, but God used that baptism to prove to the Jews that salvation was not for them alone but was to go to the Gentiles also.

Thank you to continuously show us where you stand

 

[homwardbound]

Repentance comes before one is saved.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

This scripture from our Lord makes that evident because if you do not repent you will perish.

Saved can not come before repentance, because that would make this scripture a lie to those who believe once you are saved you can not lose that salvation.

Repent, cool

Lord have Mercy on me, Lord have Mercy on me a sinner

And to her he said it is your Faith that has saved you? Oh now go and do?
Or would you go and do without being told in thanksgiving and praise?

 

[homwardbound]

Christ requires obedience to Him for one to be saved, Heb 5:9

Good luck with that Seabass?
Can you hold Ten apples under water all at one time, with your hands?
So see the perfect law for what it is and see that is why Christ came for you, that I am drawing the conclusion that you do not believe God to have done it all for you to respond to God in thanksgiving and praise being toooo busy in your own works as Saul was, seriously trying and wanting to be one with God by how he was taught and was stopped to be taught all over again
This is what I see to you from God telling you to stop, and be taught all over again as is waht Saul had to do is be taught all over again
1 Corinthians 1:14
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.