Must new covenant Christians deny God’s words if they are in the OT?

[Scuba]

All the scriptures that testify of Jesus and salvation by grace dia faith........

Grace is not a NT concept even living by faith is not a NT concept.

Habakkuk 2:4 “Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him; but the just shall live by his faith"

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Water and blood came out of Jesus' side when he was crucified, so you haven't fully understood the meaning of water in scripture, and I don't see how it would be possible for you to both understand this and decide that all God the Father spoke to you in the OT was only of the shadow that you say you are not living in.

Tell me how I have misunderstood the meaning of water in scripture. You even said the OT was a 'shadow of the better' - so why should we stay in the 'shadows' when the NT brings light upon the OT - the NT reveals the shadows of the OT. Is a shadow the REAL THING?

You speak of God creating a new man in you through Christ, and even though Christ is one with the Father you also say that words of the Father is living in shadow, not helping you live in the light.

I didn't speak of God creating a new man in me through Christ - scripture does.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Where are we a new creature - through the Spirit of God that dwells in us and that is only available because of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. I said that the OT was written for our learning - we can learn many valuable things in the OT - but we cannot literally apply the OT to our lives.

All of you make me feell lke Johnny as he marched in a parade with others, and all others were all out of step but him. I feel I need to deny the Father as a help to Christ in order to be in step with the parade, and the more all of you tell me to get with you all in denying the light of the Lord, the more I feel I have to deny Christ to do it.

I do not mean to make you feel like anything. It is just the way that I understand the scripture. Did you get any understanding from the scripture that I posted? And why do you think that YOU are the only one IN STEP and everyone else is out of step? Who is denying the Father? Who is denying Christ? and I have not heard anyone denying the light of the Lord.

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which was done away was glorious much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which was abolished. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord the vail shall be taken away. Hebrews 3:7-16

 

[Elin]

Often posts tell of not going back to the old ways, of all the things that Christ cancelled that the Father told of, and if anyone brings up wisdom of God given in the OT they are accused of denying Christ, yet the Father never denied the Son or the Son the Father.

There are scriptures saying we are to use what Christ gave us now, not the things of the OT that were sort of stand-ins, shadows, or symbols of the real thing.They were used in the same way only not as well.When we look at how blood was used for atonement, we better understand how Christ’s blood is used for salvation.Blood isn’t cancelled, It is made better.When we look at
the duties of the Levi High Priest, we see how our real High Priest is used, not cancelled but better.

Let's be accurate

The NT Word of God reveals that the Levitical priesthood no longer exists
because it was changed to the priesthood of Melchizedek, of which Jesus
is the new eternal High Priest.

 

[Scuba]

Let's be accurate

The NT Word of God reveals that the Levitical priesthood no longer exists
because it was changed to the priesthood of Melchizedek, of which Jesus
is the new eternal High Priest.

The priesthood, by law, had to come from a certain family lineage. Jesus had no real family lineage in the same way Melchizedek had no family lineage but Abraham gave him a tithe, which should only be done to someone of a divine position.

 

[phil112]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...............And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.........the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ...........when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood................ I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles......I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity........ I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles

Are you jew, red?

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh

Are you circumsized? No? Why not? Oh, you say because you are a woman? Then when God gave that instruction He wasn't talking to you? That's right. And He wasn't talking to you about any of the other laws either. Paul spoke to you directly. Told you what Christ told him to tell you, because it is the word of God.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: Step out of the old testament and into the new. That is the one meant specifically for you. Paul was speaking directly to you. Doing God's bidding, and you reject it. Woman you are going to be in trouble on that day if you don't wake up.

 

[Scuba]

Are you jew, red?
Are you circumsized? No? Why not? Oh, you say because you are a woman? Then when God gave that instruction He wasn't talking to you? That's right. And He wasn't talking to you about any of the other laws either. Paul spoke to you directly. Told you what Christ told him to tell you, because it is the word of God.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: Step out of the old testament and into the new. That is the one meant specifically for you. Paul was speaking directly to you. Doing God's bidding, and you reject it. Woman you are going to be in trouble on that day if you don't wake up.

We're all gonna have trouble on that day if we're not abiding in Christ and keeping the commandments of God when He comes.

Malachi 4 The Lord of Heaven’s Armies says, “The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all. “But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. “Remember to obey the Law of Moses, my servant—all the decrees and regulations that I gave him on Mount Sinai for all Israel. “Look, I am sending you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord arrives. His preaching will turn the hearts of fathers to their children, and the hearts of children to their fathers. Otherwise I will come and strike the land with a curse.”

 

[RedTent]

Let's be accurate

The NT Word of God reveals that the Levitical priesthood no longer exists
because it was changed to the priesthood of Melchizedek, of which Jesus
is the new eternal High Priest.

I really think it is you who is not being accurate. If Jesus is the new High Priest, and you deny learning anything of the office of high priest from the duties of the old high priest, how can you all of a sudden simply know, outside of reading what the old high priest did, what the new one is to do? You say knowing is going back to the old high priest so you have to pretend he never exists. You talk of Melchizedek, yet at the same time you deny any part of Mechizedek because it was in the OT. Remember, you are saying he never existed. To acknowledge him is to know him, and if he never existed, how are you to know him?

If you are going to cancel all the shadows, then cancel them. Cancel all of the Father, if that is only of the shadow you deny. Why mention any of what is completely gone?

 

[Elin]

Water and blood came out of Jesus' side when he was crucified, so you haven't fully understood the meaning of water in scripture, and I don't see how it would be possible for you to both understand this and decide that all God the Father spoke to you in the OT was only of the shadow that you say you are not living in.

You speak of God creating a new man in you through Christ, and even though Christ is one with the Father you also say that words of the Father is living in shadow, not helping you live in the light.

All of you make me feell lke Johnny as he marched in a parade with others, and all others were all out of step but him.
I feel I need to deny the Father as a help to Christ in order to be in step with the parade, and the more all of you tell me to get with you all in denying the light of the Lord, the more I feel I have to deny Christ to do it.

Then you are seriously misunderstanding major NT doctrine.

The following would be what I am talking about.

I am sure that you feel confident you understand every word the Lord speaks in scripture, but I doubt you do anymore than I do. If you read every word
Paul tells us about these people in the book of Romans, it
is not clear that God has condemned
everyone who thinks that the
Christ who lived as a man was not the Christ God spoke of is dead in their sins.

"If you do not believe that I am he (the one I claim to be), you will indeed die in your sins." (Jn 8:24)

One thing I know, Paul does not contradict Jesus of Nazareth on the gospel. . .or anything else.
Rather, it is you who misunderstand Paul.

What Jesus said is not debatable, there is no wiggle room here:

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (Jn 3:18)

"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (Jn 3:36)

Are you letting your eschatology overrun NT teaching?
For that is the very real and present danger of private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.

You may be right and you may, also, be wrong about your knowledge of God in this respect.

No, ma'am.

If words have meaning, I may not be wrong, I am right about my knowledge of God in this respect.
It is not debatable, there is no wiggle room here.

At the very least, it is none of your business, it is the Lord's business.

Wrong, ma'am.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the business of everyone born again.

Where in Paul specifically do you find this lack of clarity on the gospel?
Let's examine it.

 

[Elin]

I really think it is you who is not being accurate. If Jesus is the new High Priest, and
you deny learning anything of the office of high priest from the duties of the old high priest, how can you all of a sudden simply know, outside of reading what the old high priest did, what the new one is to do? You say knowing is going back to the old high priest so
you have to pretend he never exists. You talk of Melchizedek, yet at the same time
you deny any part of
Mechizedek because it was in the OT. Remember, you are saying he never existed.

You have me confused with someone else.

Time for you to rest.

Good night, Sis.

 

[RedTent]

Are you jew, red?
Are you circumsized? No? Why not? Oh, you say because you are a woman? Then when God gave that instruction He wasn't talking to you? That's right. And He wasn't talking to you about any of the other laws either. Paul spoke to you directly. Told you what Christ told him to tell you, because it is the word of God.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: Step out of the old testament and into the new. That is the one meant specifically for you. Paul was speaking directly to you. Doing God's bidding, and you reject it. Woman you are going to be in trouble on that day if you don't wake up.

It is Paul who gives the instruction to be circumcised.

It was John in Revelation that talks of the circumcision that is all you recognize, that of the flesh. The Jews of Smyrna who was circumcised as you advise, in the flesh only, and they were not counted as circumcised. It is you who deny Paul when Paul told us to be circumcised, not of the flesh but of the spirit as true circumcision is. But it is you who says that is of the OT and I am to deny that. You go ahead with your denial, I will follow Paul.

 

[JGIG]

Acts 17:10-11 That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas to Berea. When they arrived there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.

What Scriptures were they searching to see if what Paul and Silas were saying was true?

[video=youtube_share;Cp6TY9jvnsM]http://youtu.be/Cp6TY9jvnsM[/video]

 

[Ariel82]

[h=2]"Must new covenant Christians deny God’s words if they are in the OT? "[/h][h=2]New covenant Christians do not deny God's word whether they are in the OT or the NT.[/h]
What God's people should do is discern what God's word teaches and delve deeply into God's word.

Understanding the shadows can help but only if one truly has His light in your heart and His Holy Spirit to explain.

Someone told me once when I asked questions about things that happened in the OT about things like Isaac lying about Rebekah being his sister, that it is a testament of history of the things that happened and recorded human mistakes. It never says that God approves of Isaac's lies or Lot's daughters' incest.

So being able to read the OT in full context is very good but reading just a few scriptures taken from the whole story causes many false doctrines and hypocrisy to arise.

 

[JGIG]

I don't think you're gonna like what God says in the OT so it's best that you do throw it out.

Malachi 4 The Lord of Heaven’s Armies says, “The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all. “But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. “Remember to obey the Law of Moses, my servant—all the decrees and regulations that I gave him on Mount Sinai for all Israel. “Look, I am sending you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord arrives. His preaching will turn the hearts of fathers to their children, and the hearts of children to their fathers. Otherwise I will come and strike the land with a curse.”

Does Law-keeping make you righteous or does being in Christ make you righteous?


Hebrew Roots Movement – Man’s Righteousness or God’s Righteousness?

 

[JGIG]

Grace is not a NT concept even living by faith is not a NT concept.

Habakkuk 2:4 “Behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him; but the just shall live by his faith"

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” (from Rom. 1)

The just shall live by what?

The Law?

No.

By faith.

In their performance of the Law?

No.

In Christ.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The priesthood, by law, had to come from a certain family lineage. Jesus had no real family lineage in the same way Melchizedek had no family lineage but Abraham gave him a tithe, which should only be done to someone of a divine position.

You're kidding, right?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I really think it is you who is not being accurate. If Jesus is the new High Priest, and you deny learning anything of the office of high priest from the duties of the old high priest, how can you all of a sudden simply know, outside of reading what the old high priest did, what the new one is to do? You say knowing is going back to the old high priest so you have to pretend he never exists. You talk of Melchizedek, yet at the same time you deny any part of Mechizedek because it was in the OT. Remember, you are saying he never existed. To acknowledge him is to know him, and if he never existed, how are you to know him?
If you are going to cancel all the shadows, then cancel them. Cancel all of the Father, if that is only of the shadow you deny. Why mention any of what is completely gone?

Once again we do not deny LEARNING FROM THE OT therefore we don't pretend that the high priest didn't exist . . . only our high priest is Jesus Christ and we have no need for any other high priest.

By saying that the OT laws, rituals, covenant, etc. are cancelled out by the light of Jesus Christ does not deny anything that was foretold in the OT.

 

[Ariel82]

??? I'm confused.

I've been gone from the boards for a while but I felt a need to dive back into the Bible. I try to read through the Bible at least once a year and decided to devote the next couple of weeks to intense Bible study.

I know we should study the Bible daily and pray daily. For the most part I do, but sometimes I feel that we need to sacrifice some of our time to read the whole Bible through if we are able and God has blessed us with the time, health and mind set to do so.

I apologize Redtent for babbling on your thread, but I just wanted to comment on your last post because I hate to see people who are truly striving to seek God's heart be discourage. Even if I do not agree on all points with the poster. I do see that you truly seek His heart and will.

God's truth is found in both the OT and the NT. An example is circumcision.

Many of the Israelites and many Christians today misunderstand what TRUE circumcision is: of the heart and NOT of the flesh.

It is true in the OT many of the writers stressed the circumcision of the flesh of all males on the eight day of their birth. However, if we read the OT through eyes opened by the HOLY Spirit we see WHAT GOD stresses, which is not the circumcision of the flesh but of the heart.

True circumcision is allows about a repentant heart, humble and ready to learn from God. True salvation was always based upon faith in the Messiah and never on the act of animal sacrifice but faith in the promise of redemption through Christ.

Here are some Bible verses:

Deut 10
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. [SUP]20 [/SUP]You shall fear the Lord your God; you shall serve Him, and to Him you shall hold fast, and take oaths in His name. [SUP]21 [/SUP]He is your praise, and He is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome things which your eyes have seen

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

My advice is not to march with the crowd but march to God's drumbeat: the beat of a heart fully in love with Him.

 

[JGIG]

I really think it is you who is not being accurate. If Jesus is the new High Priest, and you deny learning anything of the office of high priest from the duties of the old high priest, how can you all of a sudden simply know, outside of reading what the old high priest did, what the new one is to do? You say knowing is going back to the old high priest so you have to pretend he never exists. You talk of Melchizedek, yet at the same time you deny any part of Mechizedek because it was in the OT. Remember, you are saying he never existed. To acknowledge him is to know him, and if he never existed, how are you to know him?

Red, you need to read Hebrews chapters 7-10 which gives you the specific differences between the Earthly, temporary, Levite Priests and the Heavenly, Perfect, Forever High Priesthood of Christ. It's fine to study the Levitical priesthood from the OT. It was only a shadow, however, and Christ's Perfect, Forever High Priesthood is detailed in the New Covenant Scriptures.

If you are going to cancel all the shadows, then cancel them. Cancel all of the Father, if that is only of the shadow you deny. Why mention any of what is completely gone?

In the Light of the Reality of Christ, the shadows are cancelled.

Does that cancel out God?

If you're standing in a dark room with a light pointing at you which casts a shadow on the wall, and someone opens the curtains revealing windows all around you letting sunlight stream in, your shadow will disappear.

Will you disappear, too?

Or does your substance remain and can folks see you for who you actually are?

Were folks able to interact with your shadow or with your substance?

 

[tourist]

My advice is not to march with the crowd but march to God's drumbeat: the beat of a heart fully in love with Him.

I love this picture!

 

[Ariel82]

okay.... when every one is finished torching the strawmen and establishes that most people on this forum do believe in the OT and that salvation is through Faith in Christ which is found in both OT and NT, I'll come back........