Why I don't believe in OSAS

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#61
It looks like there are a bunch of people who just don't understand what Salvation is.

If you think you are saved by any of your works, of course you must maintain those works in order to remain saved. Therefore beleiving that you can lose your salvation...

But Salvation isn't from your work. Salvation is from the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. You may be able to argue about when or at what point Salvation is given and received, but to argue that it is or can be lost is saying that Christ gives up, or changes His Mind. He would have to leave us and forsake us in order for us to lose His Salvation. He has already said He won't. (Angela beat me to that one...)

The Bible says that God doesn't repent of His Gifts or Calling. Eternal Life is a gift. The only argument you could possible have is when does a person know they have been given Eternal Life. But the Fact of OSAS remains.

Romans 11:29 [SUP] [/SUP]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
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#62
Re: Denying the Savior, & Endorsing "Chance-Giver-ism" Leads to Gehenna

Having
Only
Positive
Expectations

A visiting Pastor told us that one two weeks ago. What is this faith that we have anyway? Is it in ourselves and our own maintaining of our Righteousness? That is not where my faith is. My faith is in the Power of the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done and what He has promised to continue to do.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,356
16,320
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Tennessee
#63
It looks like there are a bunch of people who just don't understand what Salvation is.

If you think you are saved by any of your works, of course you must maintain those works in order to remain saved. Therefore beleiving that you can lose your salvation...

But Salvation isn't from your work. Salvation is from the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. You may be able to argue about when or at what point Salvation is given and received, but to argue that it is or can be lost is saying that Christ gives up, or changes His Mind. He would have to leave us and forsake us in order for us to lose His Salvation. He has already said He won't. (Angela beat me to that one...)

The Bible says that God doesn't repent of His Gifts or Calling. Eternal Life is a gift. The only argument you could possible have is when does a person know they have been given Eternal Life. But the Fact of OSAS remains.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
I stand with you on this. Why does anyone choose to live in fear always worried that they will somehow not measure up and lose their salvation. Salvation is a gift and it is not taken away under any circumstances. Fear not.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
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#64
I stand with you on this. Why does anyone choose to live in fear always worried that they will somehow not measure up and lose their salvation. Salvation is a gift and it is not taken away under any circumstances. Fear not.
After the Lord has shown us the Power of His Salvation I am always ashamed when I start having any doubts concerning what He has done for me. I apologize immediately and thank the Lord Jesus Christ for saving me and my family.

Matthew 8:25-26
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#65
It looks like there are a bunch of people who just don't understand what Salvation is.

If you think you are saved by any of your works, of course you must maintain those works in order to remain saved. Therefore beleiving that you can lose your salvation...

But Salvation isn't from your work. Salvation is from the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. You may be able to argue about when or at what point Salvation is given and received, but to argue that it is or can be lost is saying that Christ gives up, or changes His Mind. He would have to leave us and forsake us in order for us to lose His Salvation. He has already said He won't. (Angela beat me to that one...)

The Bible says that God doesn't repent of His Gifts or Calling. Eternal Life is a gift. The only argument you could possible have is when does a person know they have been given Eternal Life. But the Fact of OSAS remains.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Grandpa you see the problem with your philosophy of scripture, is that you and others take an turn the blame on God.

You say that we who believe one can lose salvation, say God will take it away.

That is not what we say, what we say is the individual can walk away from God by living back in willful sin and denying Him.

That would be that individual causing themselves to lose salvation, not that our Lord takes it away.

If that person turns around later in life and comes back to the Lord and repents, then they will have that salvation again.

People who focus on works to earn salvation, are in the wrong......As well as those who believe a true believer does not have to show their belief in works of love ( helping others ), are in the wrong.

Once again I will say to those who do not believe works of love and faith do not work hand and hand in salvation from the Lord. Read Matthew 25:31-46 both groups believe in Jesus, but only one gets eternal life.

The scriptures that say not of works is speaking of those who try to earn salvation with those works, not toward those who do for others out of love and obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#66
Grandpa you see the problem with your philosophy of scripture, is that you and others take an turn the blame on God.

You say that we who believe one can lose salvation, say God will take it away.

That is not what we say, what we say is the individual can walk away from God by living back in willful sin and denying Him.

.
That is your mis-understanding of what Salvation is.

An individual who is Saved has had his/her eyes opened to the Lord Jesus Christ. There is nowhere else for them to go, but to Him.

Someone who has not been saved, but maybe has been working for it, could supposedly stop those works and turn away from the Lord. Thinking what was all that work for anyway? I may as well go have fun...

But for someone who is saved those old things of the flesh are no longer fun. The only thing that is truly of worth is the Presence of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#67
Grandpa you see the problem with your philosophy of scripture, is that you and others take an turn the blame on God.

You say that we who believe one can lose salvation, say God will take it away.

That is not what we say, what we say is the individual can walk away from God by living back in willful sin and denying Him.

That would be that individual causing themselves to lose salvation, not that our Lord takes it away.

If that person turns around later in life and comes back to the Lord and repents, then they will have that salvation again.

People who focus on works to earn salvation, are in the wrong......As well as those who believe a true believer does not have to show their belief in works of love ( helping others ), are in the wrong.

Once again I will say to those who do not believe works of love and faith do not work hand and hand in salvation from the Lord. Read Matthew 25:31-46 both groups believe in Jesus, but only one gets eternal life.

The scriptures that say not of works is speaking of those who try to earn salvation with those works, not toward those who do for others out of love and obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ.
Goats are not sheep! Matthew 25:31-46 is not talking about separating 2 different kinds of Christians, it's talking about separating IMPOSTOR Christians from real Christians.

From Sheep 101: Sheep and Goats

Taxonomy
While sheep and goats have many similarities, their taxonomy (scientific clasification) eventually diverges. Each is a distinct species and genus. Sheep (Ovis aries) have 54 chromosomes, while goats (Capra aegagrus hircus) have 60. While sheep and goats will occasionally mate, fertile sheep-goat hybrids are rare. Hybrids made in the laboratory are called chimeras.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#68
That is your mis-understanding of what Salvation is.

An individual who is Saved has had his/her eyes opened to the Lord Jesus Christ. There is nowhere else for them to go, but to Him.

Someone who has not been saved, but maybe has been working for it, could supposedly stop those works and turn away from the Lord. Thinking what was all that work for anyway? I may as well go have fun...

But for someone who is saved those old things of the flesh are no longer fun. The only thing that is truly of worth is the Presence of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Wrong, I don't misunderstand the scriptures.

A believer can not still walk in willful sin and still be saved, the scriptures make this clear.

Plus like I said Matthew 25 shows two groups that believe in Jesus as Lord, but only one group has true belief which was shown by how they helped others, and the other group only had mere belief and did not believe they had to help others.

Go and notice in Matthew 25 how both groups ask Jesus, when did we do this to you.

The true believers were shocked that they mattered, and the mere believers also were shocked they mattered.

Our Lord is saying in this passage that a way to deny Him is to deny others the help they need.

The scriptures make it clear if you deny Him, you will not be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven.

You don't earn salvation with works, but works of love ( helping others ) works hand and hand with faith.

Faith without works is dead.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#69
Goats are not sheep! Matthew 25:31-46 is not talking about separating 2 different kinds of Christians, it's talking about separating IMPOSTOR Christians from real Christians.

From Sheep 101: Sheep and Goats

Taxonomy
While sheep and goats have many similarities, their taxonomy (scientific clasification) eventually diverges. Each is a distinct species and genus. Sheep (Ovis aries) have 54 chromosomes, while goats (Capra aegagrus hircus) have 60. While sheep and goats will occasionally mate, fertile sheep-goat hybrids are rare. Hybrids made in the laboratory are called chimeras.

I did not say goats were sheep. What I said this is the separating the goats from the sheep.

The sheep are the ones in the first group who get eternal life by helping others.


The goats are the ones in the second group who get sent to eternal punishment because of their mere belief, they had no good works that followed ( did not help others ).
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#70
I did not say goats were sheep. What I said this is the separating the goats from the sheep.

The sheep are the ones in the first group who get eternal life by helping others.


The goats are the ones in the second group who get sent to eternal punishment because of their mere belief, they had no good works that followed ( did not help others ).
The goats were not then, and never were Christians at any time wouldn't you agree.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#71
The goats were not then, and never were Christians at any time wouldn't you agree.
Goats are not true Christians is the way I would put it.

This passage in Matthew 25 goes along with the scripture where Jesus says, not all who call me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

You have those who believe, and through that belief they show it with love by helping others
( These are the works that James says your faith is dead with out them )

Then you have those who believe, but think you don't have to help others, spread the gospel, and even go as far as thinking you don't have to repent of sins, and forgive others of their sins.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#72
Goats are not true Christians is the way I would put it.

This passage in Matthew 25 goes along with the scripture where Jesus says, not all who call me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

You have those who believe, and through that belief they show it with love by helping others
( These are the works that James says your faith is dead with out them )

Then you have those who believe, but think you don't have to help others, spread the gospel, and even go as far as thinking you don't have to repent of sins, and forgive others of their sins.
So do you agree that the goats are one species and the sheep are another species? To put it another way the sheep are saved people and the goats were never saved?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#73
So do you agree that the goats are one species and the sheep are another species? To put it another way the sheep are saved people and the goats were never saved?
Yes you can put it that way.

However my point is that there are some walking around ( even on here ) that think they are sheep ( saved ), but are actually walking around as goats.

They only have mere belief. They believe the Lord Jesus, and that He died on the cross and rose on the third day; and what this stands for. But they leave it at that, and write off His teachings that He passed to the Apostles that in turn passed them down to us.

They treat the things that He said as if they only applied to those few years He did His ministry while in the flesh, and then were canceled out at His crucifixion. This is false, His teachings of having to be born again, baptized, repenting of sins, forgiving others of their sins, doing good to others including enemies, and helping the needy still apply.

A true believer know these things still apply.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#74
Yes you can put it that way.

However my point is that there are some walking around ( even on here ) that think they are sheep ( saved ), but are actually walking around as goats.

They only have mere belief. They believe the Lord Jesus, and that He died on the cross and rose on the third day; and what this stands for. But they leave it at that, and write off His teachings that He passed to the Apostles that in turn passed them down to us.

They treat the things that He said as if they only applied to those few years He did His ministry while in the flesh, and then were canceled out at His crucifixion. This is false, His teachings of having to be born again, baptized, repenting of sins, forgiving others of their sins, doing good to others including enemies, and helping the needy still apply.

A true believer know these things still apply.
So why are you using the passage in Matthew 25 to say that "sheep" can loose their salvation and become goats?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#75
So why are you using the passage in Matthew 25 to say that "sheep" can loose their salvation and become goats?

To show others that have mere belief which category they fall in before it is to late.

Because they truly believe they are sheep, and when they stand before Christ at the judgment seat. This is how they will be thinking, is how did I lose salvation, I believed in You.

Jesus will tell them because you denied Me by not helping others, I deny you. This is when they will realize they are part of the goats. I do not want it to get that far with them, I want to bring them out of false doctrine before it is to late for them.

These are some of the scriptures I use to prove some one in a saved state can lose salvation

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Mark 13:9-13

“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


Notice that none of these verses say once saved, always saved; They say instead to endure, persist, and remain steadfast in the gospel and the teachings of Jesus Christ to be saved.

And if you don't remain steadfast, it says that there will be those who don't and therefore fall away to false teachings and back to willful sin and therefore cast out, unless they repent and come back to the Lord.

Once again you can not fall away from something, if you were never a part of it.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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#76
That is your mis-understanding of what Salvation is.

An individual who is Saved has had his/her eyes opened to the Lord Jesus Christ. There is nowhere else for them to go, but to Him.

Someone who has not been saved, but maybe has been working for it, could supposedly stop those works and turn away from the Lord. Thinking what was all that work for anyway? I may as well go have fun...

But for someone who is saved those old things of the flesh are no longer fun. The only thing that is truly of worth is the Presence of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
We are saved by grace through faith and faith without works is dead.... we are created unto good works. Those who don't do what they are created for are hewn down and cast into the fire. Show how you are saved by grace through faith without works when the scripture says faith without works is dead. I am not speaking of works of the law. Show me what you are created unto without works.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#77
We are saved by grace through faith and faith without works is dead.... we are created unto good works. Those who don't do what they are created for are hewn down and cast into the fire. Show how you are saved by grace through faith without works when the scripture says faith without works is dead. I am not speaking of works of the law. Show me what you are created unto without works.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
Are you trying to convince me of this, or yourself?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
281
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#78
Are you trying to convince me of this, or yourself?
Good question. If we want to be justified by the law, then we must keep every yot and tittle of same else we are hypocrites and Christ is of none effect to us. Seems not like a win-win deal.
 
M

MidniteWelder

Guest
#79
Luke 8

5
“A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed,
~some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up.
~~6
Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture.
~~~7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants.
~~~~8
Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”
When he said this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

Which plant are you determines the answer.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#80
To show others that have mere belief which category they fall in before it is to late.

Because they truly believe they are sheep, and when they stand before Christ at the judgment seat. This is how they will be thinking, is how did I lose salvation, I believed in You.

Jesus will tell them because you denied Me by not helping others, I deny you. This is when they will realize they are part of the goats. I do not want it to get that far with them, I want to bring them out of false doctrine before it is to late for them.

These are some of the scriptures I use to prove some one in a saved state can lose salvation

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
You're quoting from an antichrist bible, antichrist bibles will always make it seem as though man has to work for God's blessings.

Your antichrist bible says: "when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.
The KJV says: when a man is tried (whether or not he is steadfast in the trial) he will receive the crown of life.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

In the KJV the crown of life is promised to everyone that loves Him.
In the antichrist translations the crown of life is given to those who "work" for it.