Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[posthuman]

the same God that is able to change water to wine is also able to keep your feet from stumbling!!

the men at the party were tipsy to drunk and that Jesus contributed even further into them being intoxicated. Which would be wrong.

look, when we read this:

He said, “Go and tell this people:
‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
(Isaiah 6:9-10)

do we think God was immoral?
and then we read this:

For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
(Matthew 13:12-13)

does He break the command 'you will not lie' when He hides the truth from some, even making them blind and deaf?
is Jesus immoral? who is the Author of morality?

if it remains a mystery, our teacher Paul tries to make it clear for us in Romans 11:25-32
and hopefully we come to realize that what appears evil according to the flesh was for His good purpose according to spirit. hopefully our faith is such that we wholly believe from the beginning.

the same way that the idea of God bringing a curse on His people seems at first anathema to us, but if we believe, and are taught, we come to understand it and how it is to His glory --- the same way, i think, that seeing wine that affects the body and mind is exactly what it seems like at face value troubles you.

our sister lisa79 was in this thread trying to show us how the miracle as a sign shows us God's glory -- i think that's a far wiser thing than us bickering over words.

 

[posthuman]

Habakkuk 2:15 says, “Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, Pressing him to your bottle, Even to make him drunk, That you may look on his nakedness! Apparently, the Scriptures warn against disturbed individuals waiting on others to get drunk and pushing others to drink, so that they can satisfy their own lusts against others.

are you reading the whole sentence or just the first half of it?

Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, Pressing him to your bottle,

i am quite sure you read this part ^^

Even to make him drunk, That you may look on his nakedness!

but for some reason i think you may not have gotten past the first couple of words here ^^

at Cana, was Jesus at a wedding celebration or a pagan orgy? what exactly do you think the intention of the couple being married was when they invited people to a feast and served their guests food and wine??

 

[Jason0047]

are you reading the whole sentence or just the first half of it?

Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, Pressing him to your bottle,

i am quite sure you read this part ^^

Even to make him drunk, That you may look on his nakedness!

but for some reason i think you may not have gotten past the first couple of words here ^^

at Cana, was Jesus at a wedding celebration or a pagan orgy? what exactly do you think the intention of the couple being married was when they invited people to a feast and served their guests food and wine??

I knew this would be your response. What about those verses on havng a sober mind in the New Testament? What about the passage that says drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God? In fact, I have heard this excuse before, but the detail in the latter half of this verse does not change the reality of the details before it. Nowhere does the Bible ever condone a person to be drunk and or to get someone else drunk as a matter of having a good time. Nowhere. It is a fantasy and illusion cooked up in Scripture so that people can justify an occasional drinking party or celebration.

 

[Jason0047]

the same God that is able to change water to wine is also able to keep your feet from stumbling!!




look, when we read this:

He said, “Go and tell this people:
‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
(Isaiah 6:9-10)

do we think God was immoral?
and then we read this:

For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
(Matthew 13:12-13)

does He break the command 'you will not lie' when He hides the truth from some, even making them blind and deaf?
is Jesus immoral? who is the Author of morality?

if it remains a mystery, our teacher Paul tries to make it clear for us in Romans 11:25-32
and hopefully we come to realize that what appears evil according to the flesh was for His good purpose according to spirit. hopefully our faith is such that we wholly believe from the beginning.

the same way that the idea of God bringing a curse on His people seems at first anathema to us, but if we believe, and are taught, we come to understand it and how it is to His glory --- the same way, i think, that seeing wine that affects the body and mind is exactly what it seems like at face value troubles you.

our sister lisa79 was in this thread trying to show us how the miracle as a sign shows us God's glory -- i think that's a far wiser thing than us bickering over words.

First, Isaiah 6:9-10 is not saying we are to lie to anyone. It says at the end of the passage that if they are willing to hear and open their hearts to understand and turn from their wicked ways, they will be healed.

Also, Jesus is not lying to people when he spoke parables to people. In addition, God is not lying to people when He is hiding the truth from unbelievers who do not want to have God in their life and or who don't want His truth. It is their choice if they want to hear or not. God does not lie. Jesus does not lie. Ever. For if Jesus lied than he could not be the One who knew no sin who was made to be sin for us. God is good and He is not evil. He is never going to influence us into doing the wrong thing. God is always going to influence us into doing the right thing. And a public drinking celebration where everyone would have been "well drunk" with an intoxicating beverage would be like a giant bilboard sign of approval to every alcoholic in existence to justify their drinking.

 

[Last]

You are not telling me anything new. I have already stated that yeast appears as a poweder like substance present on the grape. However, this is not always the case, though. I know. I read up on wine sites before. If they were to wash the grapes, they would eliminate this yeast

Wrong, they would reduce the initial level of yeast. Yeast is present in the air. The juice is going to ferment - period.

and the yeast level is not always high enough in content to make strong alcoholic wine. Just research in how to make your own wine and you will see that you will need to add cultured yeast to make the wines that you are familar with today.

FALSE. It does not matter how much or how little yeast you use. It will completely ferment. The yeast reproduce as they ferment the juice. The reason people add their own yeast to wines today is to give better control to the flavor of the wine. Wild yeast can vary a great deal in terms of flavor.

No, read a dictionary. Wine can be fermented or unfermented. Look up the word "liquor", too (While you are at it). It doesn't always mean something that is alcoholic.

Dictionaries do not have anything to do with it. There is no such thing as unfermented wine. In the ancient world, they lacked the modern sciences needed to prevent fermentation.

The word "wine" in the Bible can refer to either fermented or unfermented wine.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNFERMENTED WINE.

Grape juice can be preserved back then, too (In various different forms).

No, it could not. Yes, fermentation allows a product to be preserved, but it is a process of death and decay because the yeast eats the sugar and poops out alcohol. Don't believe me. Research it for yourself at wine sites.[/quote]

I have a degree in microbiology and I brew wine and beer, I know how it works.

Not true at all. I believe you are wrong because you are ignoring Scripture that says that drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. I also believe you are ignoring those many passages that tells us to be sober minded too.

Scripture being against being drunk has nothing to do with the reality of Jesus drinking wine. That's like saying Jesus didn't sleep because the bible is against sloth and laziness. You are going from one extreme to another.

 

[Last]

While it is true that grape juice ferments as soon as you squeeze it into a container, it does not produce more than 3% alcohol on it's own power without cultured yeast or a super large abnormal amount of yeast build up on the skin of the grape.

That's not true. Yeast will reproduce, it does not matter how little you start with. Wherever you are getting your information, it is totally wrong.

Please research a wine website on how to make alcholic wine that is at the levels of alcoholic content that we have in them today. They will tell you to always add cultured yeast.

All wine is alcoholic. They will tell you to add cultured yeast because the juice you buy from the store is sterile. That would mean your juice will be fermented by whatever yeast is in the air, which can make for a bad product.

 

[lisa79]

Maybe you have discovered why the Kingdom is not for drunkards. They have no self control. God created Eden he created the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Was his creation immoral? You arguement is invalid....completely.

 

[Last]

Please use the quote button or mention the person you are replying to - it is very confusing.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

God does not do evil Jason, but he allows it to happen and as Lisa already showed you he created Evil.

"Evil", in the verse Lisa referenced, is not speaking of wickedness, et. al.; sin, iniquity. It is speaking of calamity.

 

[JackH]

That's not true. Yeast will reproduce, it does not matter how little you start with. Wherever you are getting your information, it is totally wrong.

All wine is alcoholic. They will tell you to add cultured yeast because the juice you buy from the store is sterile. That would mean your juice will be fermented by whatever yeast is in the air, which can make for a bad product.

Unfermented wine is a contradiction of terms. I don't know what part of that "they" don't understand.

There is, however, non-alcoholic beer. It's called O'Douls and it tastes like rat piss.

Me, I'll still to Guinness. I'm being blessed by God with one at this very moment. And if I'm not struck dead for committing the unforgivable sin, I'll be popping open another one soon.

 

[Jason0047]

Maybe you have discovered why the Kingdom is not for drunkards. They have no self control. God created Eden he created the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Was his creation immoral? You arguement is invalid....completely.

Where was the self control of those drunkards who were "well drunk" of intoxicating wine at the Wedding at Cana? How does Jesus' contributing to their drunkeness support the warnings in Scripture that condemn drunkenness? See, that is one of the many reasons why I don't believe the wine at the wedding was not intoxicating like our wine today.

 

[Jason0047]

Unfermented wine is a contradiction of terms. I don't know what part of that "they" don't understand.

There is, however, non-alcoholic beer. It's called O'Douls and it tastes like rat piss.

Me, I'll still to Guinness. I'm being blessed by God with one at this very moment. And if I'm not struck dead for committing the unforgivable sin, I'll be popping open another one soon.

I still see you haven't looked at a dictionary yet.

 

[Jason0047]

"Evil", in the verse Lisa referenced, is not speaking of wickedness, et. al.; sin, iniquity. It is speaking of calamity.

I agree, my brother.

God did not directly create evil. He merely created free willed beings that chose evil. For there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5).

 

[Last]

I still see you haven't looked at a dictionary yet.

What does that have to do with anything? There is no such thing as unfermented wine. It's a contradiction.

 

[Jason0047]

Wrong, they would reduce the initial level of yeast. Yeast is present in the air. The juice is going to ferment - period.

Yeast is not always present in the air and or even on the skin of the grape in high enough quantities to produce the types of high in alcoholic content type wines today. Grapes on their own will not produce the type of strong alcoholic wines we have come to know (Unless there was a highly unsual amount of natural yeast on the skin of the grape).

FALSE. It does not matter how much or how little yeast you use. It will completely ferment. The yeast reproduce as they ferment the juice. The reason people add their own yeast to wines today is to give better control to the flavor of the wine. Wild yeast can vary a great deal in terms of flavor.

Read up at wine making sites. The level of alcohol produced by the grape is dependent upon the amount of yeast that eats the sugars of the grape whereby it poops out alcohol.

Dictionaries do not have anything to do with it. There is no such thing as unfermented wine. In the ancient world, they lacked the modern sciences needed to prevent fermentation.

I have already provided a link to an article that has sources that say otherwise.

As for the Dictionaries: Yes, dictionaries have everything to do with it. You are ignoring knowledge that was written down for the past few centuries.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNFERMENTED WINE.

Try telling that to the author of various dictionaries.

No, it could not

I have a degree in microbiology and I brew wine and beer, I know how it works.

You have a degree but you are unaware of the definitions of the word "wine" in dictionaries and you are against what the vast majority wine makers have written on their websites about wine?

Scripture being against being drunk has nothing to do with the reality of Jesus drinking wine. That's like saying Jesus didn't sleep because the bible is against sloth and laziness. You are going from one extreme to another.

No. The Bible tells us to be sober minded. Did you know that? Do you know what verses teach this? Do you care? Do you think these verses applied to those who were supposedly "well drunk" at the Wedding?

 

[Jason0047]

What does that have to do with anything? There is no such thing as unfermented wine. It's a contradiction.

Well, then dictionaries just lied then. But you wouldn't know that unless you actually looked in one to see if what I am saying is true or not.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Once again I will say the words that were used for wine in the original texts for wine was.

oy'-nos: wine, from yah-yin: meaning to effervesce (or fermented). (Used most places throughout the New Testament.) glyoo'-kos: (or glucose or a liquid fruit sugar), or a syrupy sweet fruit juice. (Used only one time.)
par'-oy-nos: (From two words: 1. Para: near and 2. G3631 wine), meaning addicted to wine. (Used only twice.)
oy-of-loog-ee'-ah: (From two words: 1. G3631 wine and 2. Floo'or-os: bubbly or to talk incessantly), meaning drunkenness or drunk on wine. (Used only once.)

The one used in the scripture we are speaking of that Jesus turned water to wine is the first one oy'-nos. Which is fermented wine.


You say Jesus would be to blame because He would be contributing to drunkenness, but you look at it the wrong way.


God made snakes and spiders, some of which are deadly poisonous. Do you blame God for making them if some one gets bit by one and dies ?

God made all animals and plants, some also poisonous or unhealthy if consumed. Do you blame God for making them if some one eats them and their health gets bad and/or they die ?

God made Adam and Eve, yet He put the tree of knowledge in the garden. Do you blame God for putting it there because it made it easily accessible for Eve and Adam to get to and eat from ?

 

[Last]

Well, then dictionaries just lied then. But you wouldn't know that unless you actually looked in one to see if what I am saying is true or not.

Dictionaries are not lying. You sir, are not making any sense.

 

[Last]

Yeast is not always present in the air

Yes, it is.

and or even on the skin of the grape in high enough quantities to produce the types of high in alcoholic content type wines today. Grapes on their own will not produce the type of strong alcoholic wines we have come to know (Unless there was a highly unsual amount of natural yeast on the skin of the grape).

You have NO idea what you are talking about. It does not matter how much or how little yeast is present. Yeast reproduce and will consume the sugars until their is nothing left to consume. The only limit to that is if sugars are added to the wine such that the yeast die from alcohol at 10%-15%+.

If I drop a tablespoon of yeast mixture or a cup, I'll end up with the same alcohol content.

Read up at wine making sites. The level of alcohol produced by the grape is dependent upon the amount of yeast that eats the sugars of the grape whereby it poops out alcohol.

No, again, you have no idea what you are talking about. One, yeast do not 'poop', they are single celled organisms. Two, the percentage of alcohol depends on the sugar content of the liquid.

I have already provided a link to an article that has sources that say otherwise.

As for the Dictionaries: Yes, dictionaries have everything to do with it. You are ignoring knowledge that was written down for the past few centuries.

Try telling that to the author of various dictionaries.

The only thing you posted was something that was blatantly wrong and just embarrassingly ignorant. It confused yeast with gluten and made all kinds of errors.

Please stop going on about dictionaries. If you have something to claim, then claim it. Enough with the "I will totally ignore science and basic biological facts and instead just tell you that the dictionary says you are wrong".
If the dictionary proves me wrong, then show it.
But the fact of the matter is, that you'd think the dictionary would have ANYTHING to do with this discussion shows some very serious problems.

You have a degree but you are unaware of the definitions of the word "wine" in dictionaries and you are against what the vast majority wine makers have written on their websites about wine?

The dictionary has nothing to do with basic facts of wine making. Name one thing I contradict a wine maker on?

No. The Bible tells us to be sober minded. Did you know that? Do you know what verses teach this? Do you care? Do you think these verses applied to those who were supposedly "well drunk" at the Wedding?

No one was well drunk at the party. You can't even read scripture correctly.

 

[kennethcadwell]

wine (w

n)n.1. a. A beverage made of the fermented juice of any of various kinds of grapes, usually containing from 10 to 15 percent alcohol by volume.
b. A beverage made of the fermented juice of any of various other fruits or plants.

2. Something that intoxicates or exhilarates.
3. The color of red wine.