What does it mean to say salvation is not of yourself?

[elf3]

I never said man can save himself by himself.

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him. So those men that choose to obey Christ are in that sense saving themselves by doing what Christ says. You can "lose yourself" by NOT obeying Christ.

In Acts 2:38 God commanded those people to repent and be baptized for remission of sins (salvation)

So in v40 Peter tells them to "save yourselves". How? By obeying that command. They would "lose themselves" by not obeying that command. God does not determine for man which one's will be saved or lost, God left that choice up to men so those that choose to obey are 'saving themselves' and those that choose not to obey causing themselves to be lost.

There ya go. In your words "God left the choice up to men". So what about God's omniscience? Does God not know who will be saved? What about God's Sovereignty? Does God's Sovereignty not exist in people being saved? Is it a shock to God who comes to Him?

By removing or saying either one of those attributes of God in either of those areas does not exist then you just made God not God.

 

[elf3]

By removing any little part of the attributes of God no matter how insignificant we may think it is is removes God off of His throne.

 

[jdbear]

Fact again: millions of people will die not hearing the gospel. Does that make God arbitrary in not choosing them to hear the gospel? According to your logic it must be so.

You may believe the wicked and slanderous doctrine that God condemns those who have never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus, but the Bible says otherwise:

"...the just shall live by his faith." Hab.2:4

To live by ones faith means to be a doer of God's word. Paul said it this way:

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Ro.1:17

"From faith to faith"...meaning any person from any culture who wants to worship the one true God, (which they have no reason not to believe in to begin with (vss.18-32.) Continuing into Ro.2, Paul explains that Gentiles who do not know the scriptures are circumcised when, because of their faith, they obey from the heart.

Originally posted by tribesman,
As me and others see it, it's a theological "problem" which we have no exact answer to here and now. I repeat, we do not have all the answers as to the "why" and "why not" in this regard. As scripture is silent about that. That has nothing to do with slandering God for arbitrary doing anything. That line of thinking comes from nowhere else than your own faulty "logic" which must press in God into your own rational "understanding". So, your accusation of slandering God falls back to yourself coming to the end that you reject God's record about the matter. Sad turn, pal. Hope you go it better.

The only faulty logic is ignoring this plain teaching from scripture:
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1 Ti.2:4

 

[SeaBass]

Well first of all I didn't imply anything of the such....
Second....it is you who is blind to the fact that eternal salvation is not based upon anything but faith, grace and mercy
Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith
Fourth...ALL YOU DO is peddle another man's heresy, CAMPBELL is his name and his theology WILL take you to hell!

If the "faith onlyists" argue one has to do NO WORKS AT ALL to be saved then that is implying one does not have to do obedient works in complying with God's will yet still be saved. It also implies a Christian does not have to do good so works, Eph 2:10 that God preordained Christians do........


......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

You see here is part of the problem. You pick and choose single verses to defend your position without reading the before and after. By picking out just one verse at a time you are taking things out of context and making them say what you want.

For example your 1 John 3:10 verse you use. Read all of 1 John 3. 1 John 3:7 "...He who does what is right is righteous just as he is righteous". It doesn't say we are made righteous but we are righteous. In the eyes of God we are seen as righteous because of the good we are doing.

Both 1 Jn 3:7 and 10 prove my point...

1 Jn 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth (present tense) righteousness is (present tense) righteous, even as he is righteous."

He that doeth righteousess (present tense) is (present tense) righteous, the implication is one must presently, ongoingly do righteousness to presently, ongoingly be righteous.

Verse 10: "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not (present tense) righteousness is not (present tense) of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

And the present tense verbs in this verse shows the ones who presently, ongoingly continually do NO righteousness is presently ongoingly continuously NOT of God.

The implication of both verses is one must DO RIGHTEOUSNESS to be of God.

You posted "In the eyes of God we are seen as righteous because of the good we are doing."

Can one be seen as righteous in the eyes of God by doing nothing/doing unrighteousness? no.

 

[dcontroversal]

Look dude.....your COC Campbellite doctrine does not fly period...You can twist the scripture all you want and it will still lead you to hell....

Salvation of the SOUL is eternal, cannot be lost and both of your misapplications to my third point are moot....as you fail to understand that a saved child of God can be rebellious, be whipped by God (chastisement) and still remain saved of the which the bible speaks on numerous occasions...

You will continue to disregard the facts and argue you Campbellite doctrine of works and if you genuinely believe that will end up in hell as you trust a gospel of a different kind period and that hellish doctrine you trust in has no power to save. Until you actually trust Jesus in a biblical manner you will continue to be ignorant of the truth and how it actually applies unto the believer. You reject the words Of Jesus, John, Paul, James etc. and you are following a man that was not called of God nor inspired of God.....

You fail to understand that works are evidence of faith and the fact that works do not produce faith...many have proven this to you dia the scriptures and you continually reject the obvious truths found within the bible. I suggest the Corinthian letters and a study of the works that a child of God can have which points to being faithful and or unfaithful...[

SAVED and FAITHFUL=works of GOLD, SILVER and precious stones
SAVED and UNFAITHFUL=works of wood, hay and stubble

This too you will reject and trivialize away and or spiritualize away to your own demise so your absolutism of either a yes or no is misinformed and ignorant of the simple, basic teachings of the bible which proves your immediate lost state!

QUOTE=SeaBass;1706776]If the "faith onlyists" argue one has to do NO WORKS AT ALL to be saved then that is implying one does not have to do obedient works in complying with God's will yet still be saved. It also implies a Christian does not have to do good so works, Eph 2:10 that God preordained Christians do........


......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.


[/QUOTE]

 

[SeaBass]

Did God reach out to us or did we reach out to Him? If we in fact were seeking after Him then why did He send His Son to die for us? Did we ask God to do this or by God's grace did He do this?

God's role in man's salvation was sending Christ to earth to shed His blood that remits sins upon the cross.

Christ died for every man, Heb 2:9 yet every man will not be saved for every man will not take his role in salvation by taking advantage of what Christ did on the cross by obeying Christ.


Salvation is not one sided or unconditional for if it were then every single person would be saved, Tts 2:11.
Since every single person will not be saved then that implies receiving God's grace is CONDITIONAL upon man's obedience.

 

[SeaBass]

If in fact as you say we reach out to God and we have our own faith and we can save ourselves then the death of Christ was in vain because we can do it ourselves.

Don't try and dance around this because this is exactly what you are implying.

I never have said man cannot save himself by himself.

Therefore the death of Christ was necessary in shedding His blood for mankind's sins. Mankind in return must obey Christ in order for Christ's shed blood to remit sins. So man saves himself in the sense of taking advantage of what Christ did on the cross by obeying Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

Another Campbellite twist on the FREE GIFT of SALVATION.....you really should drop your Campbellite doctrine...pray and get right....a GIFT OF GOD IS EXACTLY THAT a GIFT.....just like YOUR breath, heart beat and your life is a GIFT that YOU cannot gain or get by your own works.....You can twist it for the next 50 years and two things will not change...

1. Where you will end up if you keep trusting Campbellite heresy
2. What the truth actually teaches

I see you are still unable to refute the biblical fact that God's saving grace comes with conditions and working out those conditions is necessary to receive God's grace but do not earn God's grace.


http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html

 

[SeaBass]

There ya go. In your words "God left the choice up to men". So what about God's omniscience? Does God not know who will be saved? What about God's Sovereignty? Does God's Sovereignty not exist in people being saved? Is it a shock to God who comes to Him?

By removing or saying either one of those attributes of God in either of those areas does not exist then you just made God not God.

God gave man free will to choose to either obey or not obey. So if man freely chooses to not obey then man has no one to blame but himself. And since God gave man free will TO EXERCISE then when man does use it he is only doing what God sovereignly gave man the ability to do.

 

[SeaBass]

By removing any little part of the attributes of God no matter how insignificant we may think it is is removes God off of His throne.

How does God giving man the gift of free will move God off His throne?
If God did not want man to have freewill then God would not have given it to man.

 

[Elin]

I see you are still unable to refute the biblical fact that God's saving grace comes with conditions and working out those conditions is necessary to receive God's grace but do not earn God's grace.

I see you equate your misunderstanding with Biblical fact.

I see you do not understand that saving faith is two components:

saving faith = belief + obedience.

I see you do not understand that those who have saving faith not only believe, but also obey,
that there never is one without the other.

I see you do not understand that only the first component saves, and the second component always follows.

I see you do not understand that "faith" without obedience is counterfeit faith, and does not save.

 

[dcontroversal]

I see you are still unable to refute the biblical fact that God's saving grace comes with conditions and working out those conditions is necessary to receive God's grace but do not earn God's grace.


http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html

Keep believing that salvation comes with conditions and like I said...you never trusted Jesus to begin with, yea but rather, you have trusted into your works and Campbellite doctrine of works and the ability to save yourself....Salvation stands alone in the perfect work of CHRIST and when we ENTER into HIS REST WE CEASE FROM OUR OWN LABOR....Good luck with your Campbellite heresy.......maybe it wont be as hot for you as it is for Hitler!

 

[elf3]

If the "faith onlyists" argue one has to do NO WORKS AT ALL to be saved then that is implying one does not have to do obedient works in complying with God's will yet still be saved. It also implies a Christian does not have to do good so works, Eph 2:10 that God preordained Christians do........


......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

You quoted Ephesians 2:10 but you kind of avoided the two verses before it.

 

[SeaBass]

Look dude.....your COC Campbellite doctrine does not fly period...You can twist the scripture all you want and it will still lead you to hell....

Salvation of the SOUL is eternal, cannot be lost and both of your misapplications to my third point are moot....as you fail to understand that a saved child of God can be rebellious, be whipped by God (chastisement) and still remain saved of the which the bible speaks on numerous occasions...

You will continue to disregard the facts and argue you Campbellite doctrine of works and if you genuinely believe that will end up in hell as you trust a gospel of a different kind period and that hellish doctrine you trust in has no power to save. Until you actually trust Jesus in a biblical manner you will continue to be ignorant of the truth and how it actually applies unto the believer. You reject the words Of Jesus, John, Paul, James etc. and you are following a man that was not called of God nor inspired of God.....

You fail to understand that works are evidence of faith and the fact that works do not produce faith...many have proven this to you dia the scriptures and you continually reject the obvious truths found within the bible. I suggest the Corinthian letters and a study of the works that a child of God can have which points to being faithful and or unfaithful...[

SAVED and FAITHFUL=works of GOLD, SILVER and precious stones
SAVED and UNFAITHFUL=works of wood, hay and stubble

This too you will reject and trivialize away and or spiritualize away to your own demise so your absolutism of either a yes or no is misinformed and ignorant of the simple, basic teachings of the bible which proves your immediate lost state!

I see by your post you could not deal with my last post to you, so it so here it is again:


......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.


You man-made faith onlyism got you into a bind where you cannot even answer "yes' or "no" to simple questions so you lash out at me.

Here it is again:

......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.


You will never argue away the truth of God's word.

 

[Elin]

God gave man free will to choose to either obey or not obey. So if man freely chooses to not obey then man has no one to blame but himself. And since God gave man free will TO EXERCISE then when man does use it he is only doing what God sovereignly gave man the ability to do.

Except that the sinful unregenerate nature cannot believe and obey (Ro 8:7-8).

Man must first be born again.

 

[Elin]

How does God giving man the gift of free will move God off His throne?
If God did not want man to have freewill then God would not have given it to man.

So how free is your will?

Do you have the power to live a sinless life?

Why can you not choose to make that happen?

 

[SeaBass]

I see you equate your misunderstanding with Biblical fact.

I see you do not understand that saving faith is two components:

saving faith = belief + obedience.

I see you do not understand that those who have saving faith not only believe, but also obey,
that there never is one without the other.

I see you do not understand that only the first component saves, and the second component always follows.

I see you do not understand that "faith" without obedience is counterfeit faith, and does not save.

Can one be saved WITHOUT ever obeying?

 

[SeaBass]

Keep believing that salvation comes with conditions and like I said...you never trusted Jesus to begin with, yea but rather, you have trusted into your works and Campbellite doctrine of works and the ability to save yourself....Salvation stands alone in the perfect work of CHRIST and when we ENTER into HIS REST WE CEASE FROM OUR OWN LABOR....Good luck with your Campbellite heresy.......maybe it wont be as hot for you as it is for Hitler!

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html
BIBLICAL examples in the above link PROVING obedient works do not earn God's grace but those works are in fact REQUIRED to receive God's grace.

 

[dcontroversal]

I see by your post you could not deal with my last post to you, so it so here it is again:


......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.


You man-made faith onlyism got you into a bind where you cannot even answer "yes' or "no" to simple questions so you lash out at me.

Here it is again:

......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.


You will never argue away the truth of God's word.

I did answer and you fail to acknowledge the truth of my answer.....so keep ignoring the truth and you know where you will end up....called lake of fire!! SO...what does saved yet so as by fire mean as applied unto believers who have works of wood, hay and stubble?

See, you cannot answer as it blows holes in the heresy you spread......going to be hot for false teachers such as yourself...I suggest a study of Jude as the (gospel) you teach follows the ways of CAIN and the works for salvation that he taught...the mists of blackness forever is reserved for all who teach works for salvation!