What does it mean to say salvation is not of yourself?

[dcontroversal]

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html
BIBLICAL examples in the above link PROVING obedient works do not earn God's grace but those works are in fact REQUIRED to receive God's grace.

This is such a contradiction on words it almost makes me spew.....ok let me get this straight...

WORKS do NOT EARN GRACE but
WORKS REQUIRED to receive GRACE

Dude you are so blind to your own twisted COC Campbellite doctrine that you cannot even realize that what you just said totally contradicts itself and is contrary to the truth!

 

[SeaBass]

Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

You quoted Ephesians 2:10 but you kind of avoided the two verses before it.

1) "not of works" in verse 9 refers to works of merit not obedience to God's will or good works. If "not of works" excluded obedience to God's will then tht implies man can disobey God and still be saved.

2) faith itself is an work, so "not of works" cannot exclude the "work of faith" 1 Thess 1:3

3) if "not of works" of v9 excludes EVERY AND ALL kinds of works then it would exclude the good works of v10 that God pre-ordained Christians are to do and you have a contradiction.

 

[SeaBass]

Except that the sinful unregenerate nature cannot believe and obey (Ro 8:7-8).

Man must first be born again.

Rom 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

It depends on what a man chooses to set his mind on. If he chooses to set his mind on things after the flesh he will not obey. If he choose to set his mind after things of the spirit he can obey.

 

[Elin]

I see by your post you could not deal with my last post to you, so it so here it is again:

......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

As much as an elephant can play a guitar.

Fallacious question. . .because it assumes contradictory non-Biblical facts, and cannot be answered either yes or no.

Now present a question based in Biblical fact that can be answered.

 

[SeaBass]

So how free is your will?

Do you have the power to live a sinless life?

Why can you not choose to make that happen?

Freewill does not mean one can do as he pleases or as he wants.

 

[SeaBass]

I did answer and you fail to acknowledge the truth of my answer.....so keep ignoring the truth and you know where you will end up....called lake of fire!! SO...what does saved yet so as by fire mean as applied unto believers who have works of wood, hay and stubble?

See, you cannot answer as it blows holes in the heresy you spread......going to be hot for false teachers such as yourself...I suggest a study of Jude as the (gospel) you teach follows the ways of CAIN and the works for salvation that he taught...the mists of blackness forever is reserved for all who teach works for salvation!

......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.


You will never argue away the truth of God's word.

 

[SeaBass]

This is such a contradiction on words it almost makes me spew.....ok let me get this straight...

WORKS do NOT EARN GRACE but
WORKS REQUIRED to receive GRACE

Dude you are so blind to your own twisted COC Campbellite doctrine that you cannot even realize that what you just said totally contradicts itself and is contrary to the truth!

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html

Look at the link at the BIBLICAL examples of God's requiring works to receive but those works do not earn grace.

 

[elf3]

1) "not of works" in verse 9 refers to works of merit not obedience to God's will or good works. If "not of works" excluded obedience to God's will then tht implies man can disobey God and still be saved.

2) faith itself is an work, so "not of works" cannot exclude the "work of faith" 1 Thess 1:3

3) if "not of works" of v9 excludes EVERY AND ALL kinds of works then it would exclude the good works of v10 that God pre-ordained Christians are to do and you have a contradiction.

Um the faith is from God it's not our work but the work of God. The Works of Christ were from God not our works. The grace given us is from God not our work.

You are twisting the word of God according to what someone else teaches.

 

[SeaBass]

As much as an elephant can play a guitar.

Fallacious question. . .because it assumes contradictory non-Biblical facts, and cannot be answered either yes or no.

Now present a question based in Biblical fact that can be answered.

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

It's a simple question I can answer. THe answer is NO!!! Eph 2:10

Yet your man made faith only theology puts you inbetween a rock and a hard place in answering so you try to find a way to brush it off without answering it.

 

[dcontroversal]

......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.


You will never argue away the truth of God's word.

And you will never receive the truth so what's the point as I did answer and you cannot acknowledge the truth....so good luck with your Campbellite doctrine.......I suggest you actually trust Jesus as your savior before you take your last breath as works for salvation will take you to a liquid deprived place with higher than normal temps!

 

[dcontroversal]

Um the faith is from God it's not our work but the work of God. The Works of Christ were from God not our works. The grace given us is from God not our work.

You are twisting the word of God according to what someone else teaches.

Yeah it is called Alexander Campbell and he will join him one day soon in a place of extreme heat and void of water if he keeps trusting into his works and water for eternal salvation!

 

[SeaBass]

Um the faith is from God it's not our work but the work of God. The Works of Christ were from God not our works. The grace given us is from God not our work.

You are twisting the word of God according to what someone else teaches.

God does not have to have faith in Himself. God has given the work of faith to man to do. Man has been commanded to have faith/believe and that imperative implies MAN'S responsibility and ability to believe thereby obeying that command to have faith/belief. So it is not God's responsibility if I have faith or not.

And you still have these two issues to deal with:

1) "not of works" in verse 9 refers to works of merit not obedience to God's will or good works. If "not of works" excluded obedience to God's will then that implies man can disobey God and still be saved.

3) if "not of works" of v9 excludes EVERY AND ALL kinds of works then it would exclude the good works of v10 that God pre-ordained Christians are to do then you have a contradiction.

 

[SeaBass]

And you will never receive the truth so what's the point as I did answer and you cannot acknowledge the truth....so good luck with your Campbellite doctrine.......I suggest you actually trust Jesus as your savior before you take your last breath as works for salvation will take you to a liquid deprived place with higher than normal temps!

......you posted "Third...I have never said ANYWHERE that a child of God will not do the works which are EVIDENCE of genuine faith."

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

If you answer "yes" then you are implying he does NOT have to do obedient works/good works that God has commanded/can willfully disobey and still be saved.

If you answer "no" then you are implying works are ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY for one to have GENUINE salvation.


You will never argue away the truth of God's word.

I see the frustration is setting in by the impossible position your man-made faith only theology put you in.

 

[Elin]

Can one be saved WITHOUT ever obeying?

Can obedience be separated from saving faith?

 

[Elin]

Freewill does not mean one can do as he pleases or as he wants.

Then his will is not free, it is limited.

Free will is the power to execute a choice.

 

[Elin]

1) "not of works" in verse 9 refers to works of merit not obedience to God's will or good works.

Works of merit are works of obedience.

They certainly aren't unmeritorious works of disobedience.

 

[elf3]

Haha! My frustration or Dc's or elin's only come from the simple fact that you ignore the Word of God and take it out of context and follow the teaching of this Campbell dude because you feel that you can partner with God in your salvation. Only God can save you and until you realized that anything you do to "work" at your salvation will be for nothing.

I believe we live under a Monarchy not a Democracy with only God as ruler. Sorry but you don't get a vote.

 

[Elin]

Except that the sinful unregenerate nature cannot believe and obey (Ro 8:7-8).

Man must first be born again.

Rom 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

It depends on what a man chooses to set his mind on. If he chooses to set his mind on things after the flesh he will not obey. If he choose to set his mind after things of the spirit he can obey.

Wrong verse.

 

[dcontroversal]

Works of merit are works of obedience.

They certainly aren't unmeritorious works of disobedience.

What is funny (not) is the fact that he contradicts himself all the time......as all false teachers do......they twist words, leave out words, deny words while being oblivious to the fact of their own contradictions and misapplication of eternal truth.

Just like the following statement...


WORKS do NOT EARN GRACE but
WORKS REQUIRED to receive GRACE

Grace means unmerited favor so how are works required to receive something that is unmerited...IMPOSSIBLE

 

[Elin]

I did answer and you fail to acknowledge the truth of my answer

Seabass, I see you equate your misunderstanding with Biblical fact.

I see you do not understand that saving faith is two components:

saving faith = belief + obedience.

I see you do not understand that those who have saving faith not only believe, but also obey,
that there never is one without the other.

I see you do not understand that only the first component saves, and the second component always follows.

I see you do not understand that "faith" without obedience is counterfeit faith, and does not save.

I see by your post you could not deal with my last post to you, so it so here it is again:

Can a child of God REFUSE to "do the works which are evidence of genuine salvation" and still be saved?

As much as an elephant can play a guitar.

You will never argue away the truth of God's word.

Agreed. . .and it would really be great if you presented some so we could agree.