Contradiction of WORDS

[TaylorTG]

I have a question for all concerning the following quote from a Campbellite that uses this chat site...

WORKS DO NOT EARN GRACE

WORKS REQUIRED to receive GRACE

Is this a contradiction of WORDS and or a play on WORDS?
Where is this principle found in scriptures?

Grace means UNMERITED FAVOR so how can it be possible to earn or receive GRACE BASED UPON WORKS seeing how the very word means unmerited favor<--unearned favor?
To work for something means you EARNED IT!

The logic tree should be like this:

Grace is given by God when asked for. (In free-will)

Use those graces and gifts from the Holy Spirit in order to contribute to the growth of the Kingdom of Heaven.



Good works are essential to salvation because they seek to initiate Christ. Christ gave evidence of his divinity and strengthened the faith of his followers via the miracles which he performed.

Initiating Christ leads to salvation. "Whoever is to be my disciple, take up your cross and follow me."

Christ came down to set an example for the human race: during his stay here, he performed good works. Why can't his disciples do the same?


When saying that good works aren't required for salvation, you are saying that healing the sick, comforting the lonely, and feeding the hungry is not required for salvation. This mindset can be countered by Matthew 25:31-40, which dictates that the work of our hands, our deeds, determine our eternal destiny.



Divine favor can indeed be merited, as shown by the examples of King David, John the Baptist, and Christ himself.


Grace is an initiative for us to build up the Kingdom.

To work for something means you EARNED IT!

That's right, and we must work for the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ worked to save us, right??

 

[elf3]

Ugh!!!!!!!!!

 

[elf3]

The logic tree should be like this:

Grace is given by God when asked for. (In free-will)

Use those graces and gifts from the Holy Spirit in order to contribute to the growth of the Kingdom of Heaven.



Good works are essential to salvation because they seek to initiate Christ. Christ gave evidence of his divinity and strengthened the faith of his followers via the miracles which he performed.

Initiating Christ leads to salvation. "Whoever is to be my disciple, take up your cross and follow me."

Christ came down to set an example for the human race: during his stay here, he performed good works. Why can't his disciples do the same?


When saying that good works aren't required for salvation, you are saying that healing the sick, comforting the lonely, and feeding the hungry is not required for salvation. This mindset can be countered by Matthew 25:31-40, which dictates that the work of our hands, our deeds, determine our eternal destiny.



Divine favor can indeed be merited, as shown by the examples of King David, John the Baptist, and Christ himself.


Grace is an initiative for us to build up the Kingdom.




That's right, and we must work for the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ worked to save us, right??

First of all we aren't talking about salvation we are talking about justification. Second no we aren't save by our works either. We are saved only by the blood of Christ.

Our faith leads to good works but we aren't justified or saved by them, shoot we aren't sanctified by them either.

If you feel that we are saved, justified or sanctified by our works then the death and resurrection of Jesus has been reduced to almost pointless.

Because of our faith we will do good works. But even those who do not have the capacity of doing good works are saved by their faith.

I am pretty sure a couple of us have said this before....um yep more than once.

 

[elf3]

It's amazing how yinz take one post (like what was just done with Dc's post) and base our whole argument on that. And take it out of context because it's just one post.

Oh wait no its not. You do it with God's Word too...my bad

 

[Ella85]

Can anyone be saved WITHOUT obeying the word of God?

Yes.

Luke 23:43

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Ella85]

As already posted, "not of works" in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit.


now, Can a one be saved WITHOUT ever doing good works?

again....


Luke 23:43

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Kaycie]

I have a question for all concerning the following quote from a Campbellite that uses this chat site...

WORKS DO NOT EARN GRACE

WORKS REQUIRED to receive GRACE

Is this a contradiction of WORDS and or a play on WORDS?
Where is this principle found in scriptures?

Grace means UNMERITED FAVOR so how can it be possible to earn or receive GRACE BASED UPON WORKS seeing how the very word means unmerited favor<--unearned favor?
To work for something means you EARNED IT!

Grace is a gift that God gives only to those who obey Him. No work we could ever do can earn salvation- it must be given to us. If I hand in a coupon for something free does that mean I worked by handing it in, and therefore the word 'free' is irrelevant? Of course not.

 

[TaylorTG]

First of all we aren't talking about salvation we are talking about justification. Second no we aren't save by our works either. We are saved only by the blood of Christ.Our faith leads to good works but we aren't justified or saved by them, shoot we aren't sanctified by them either. If you feel that we are saved, justified or sanctified by our works then the death and resurrection of Jesus has been reduced to almost pointless. Because of our faith we will do good works. But even those who do not have the capacity of doing good works are saved by their faith.

Good works are fruitful to salvation because they are results of, or manifestations of faith. It's contradictory to say that faith saves without works, because faith itself propels us to do good to begin with.


I agree with you when you say that those who don't have the capacity of doing good works, such as the disabled, may still be saved by faith, but this fact doesn't actually negate the fruits produced from outgoing Christian Charity.

The Good Samaritan is a good example of my thought process. This Samaritan revealed his godliness by helping the needy, broken man, while this man's countryman, who were supposed to be in God's community of faith, ignored him. This Samaritan's good deed certainly did justify him in the eyes of Christ, who praised such a man via the parable.


The Israelites during the Times of the Old Testament were commanded by God the Father to follow laws regarding cleansing and what-not. These precepts justified Israel if the individual persons approached them with the true spirits of piety. So interior and exterior worship go hand in hand. Doing good to one's neighbor is another way of worshiping God.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes.

Luke 23:43

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So you are saying the unrighteous, disobedient, worker of iniquity are saved, yet the bible says they are lost.

 

[SeaBass]

again....


Luke 23:43

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Again, one can blatantly disobey God's commands and be saved?
One can work evil works and be saved?
One can work unrighteousness and be of God (1 Jn 3:10)?

 

[SeaBass]

You just don't get it and you never will because you are so bent on saving yourself. If we could in any way save ourselves why did Jesus have to die!

You avoided the question:
So one who always does evil, unrighteousness and disobedient to God all their life can be saved?

Ant theology that puts one in a position where thy cannot answer such a simple question with a resounding "NO" should cause a red flag to go up. Or one's theology that causes one to answer this question with a "YES" needs to be rethought for it is 100% in opposition to bible teachings.

 

[SeaBass]

I have given you scripture and you have talked you way into justification by works in every one. If you aren't going to listen to God's Word you sure the heck ain't gonna listen to anyone's reason seabass.

So one who always does evil, unrighteousness and disobedient to God all their life can be saved?


Why should I listen to anyone that would answer the above question with a "YES"? Or listen to someone who cannot answer it?

 

[SeaBass]

Previously addressed. . .multiple times.

So one who always does evil, unrighteousness and disobedient to God all their life can be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

I told ya' elf that you would love the answer.

So one who always does evil, unrighteousness and disobedient to God all their life can be saved?

Would you like to answer this question?

 

[SeaBass]

Eph 2:10 God before ordained Christian walks in good works

Can what God 'before ordained' be changed, avoided, thwarted by man? NO!!!!!

Therefore can one be a Christian and NOT do good works NO!!!!!

 

[Ella85]

Again, one can blatantly disobey God's commands and be saved?
One can work evil works and be saved?
One can work unrighteousness and be of God (1 Jn 3:10)?

Yes, why else would Christ have died for us on the cross.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes, why else would Christ have died for us on the cross.

To be saved from sin thereby not remaining in disobedience, evil and unrighteousness. If one can be saved while living in and remaining in sin, disobedience, evil and unrighteousness why would Christ have to die?

 

[jdbear]

You avoided the question:
So one who always does evil, unrighteousness and disobedient to God all their life can be saved?

Ant theology that puts one in a position where thy cannot answer such a simple question with a resounding "NO" should cause a red flag to go up. Or one's theology that causes one to answer this question with a "YES" needs to be rethought for it is 100% in opposition to bible teachings.

This is what a Jewish friend told me. He said one reason he didn't believe in Jesus was because one person ccannot "pay for" the sins of others. He showed me scriptures from the OT proving his point. I know scripture cannot be broken. It made me wonder if "Jesus died for our sins" meant something other than "Jesus paid for our sins." I think the Jew was right.

 

[SeaBass]

This is what a Jewish friend told me. He said one reason he didn't believe in Jesus was because one person ccannot "pay for" the sins of others. He showed me scriptures from the OT proving his point. I know scripture cannot be broken. It made me wonder if "Jesus died for our sins" meant something other than "Jesus paid for our sins." I think the Jew was right.

Isa 53;5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities..."

Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood".

1 Cor 6:20 "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

Mt 18:24 an unpayable debt had accumulated but the Lord forgave the debt, v27.

No man can with works of merit pay off his debt of sin. Forgiveness of that sin debt has been graciously offered by God through Christ (by grace are you save through faith) and man must obey God's will (obedient faith to Christ) to receive that gracious forgiveness.

 

[jdbear]

Isa 53;5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities..."

Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood".

1 Cor 6:20 "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

Mt 18:24 an unpayable debt had accumulated but the Lord forgave the debt, v27.

No man can with works of merit pay off his debt of sin. Forgiveness of that sin debt has been graciously offered by God through Christ (by grace are you save through faith) and man must obey God's will (obedient faith to Christ) to receive that gracious forgiveness.

Every scripture you cited can apply to Jesus coming here because we are sinners, but for the purpose of showing us the way to God through repentance. To believe in God...through the sacrifice of Jesus. In this way, the scriptures say Jesus died because of our sin...not for (or to be punished for) our sin.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

I think my Jewish friend might be right.