Contradiction of WORDS

[elf3]

Okay, I will do that. Finally someone with a question without name calling. Since there are several people on this board who despise works and think they have nothing to do with salvation I will list a few of these important Scriptures.


Rom. 2:6; Matt. 16:27; James 2:24; Rev. 20:12; Matt. 7:21; Heb. 5:8-9; 2nd Cor. 5'10; yes, I realize there are a lot of scriptures that just mention faith. But you have to consider all of Gods word not just part of it.

Gator first I think I need to clear some things up here because there seems to be some miscommunication here.

One...I can only speak for myself. This is what the Words of God speak to me through the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Proverbs 3:5,6).

Two...I do not despise "works" and I have never said "good works" should not be part of a Christians life. The point that I have been arguing is that we are not "saved" or "justified" by our "works".

Three...I do not base my beliefs off of just one or two passages of scripture. I do look at the Bible as a whole. But notice what you have done here...you have picked single passages to defend your case. (Except the Hebrews passages).

Four..This will take some reading on both our parts as I am not going to look at these passages all at once. They need to each be done separately. So yeah we will have to scroll through other posts to stay on track. But also read others posts to see if they pertain to what we are talking about. If we just ignore other posts we might miss a vital point that either one of us are making

Ok I chose to begin with Romans 2:6. First here you just picked out one verse that says "according to his deeds" (NKJV) "according to what he has done" (NIV) without reading the before or after. This argument should be based on Romans 2:5-10. Paul is discussing the principle of judgement according to deeds. He is in no way saying that our deeds save us but looking at how God would judge "according to deeds". For those insisting on doing evil there would be "trouble and distress". For those doing good there would be "glory, honor and peace". Paul actually doesn't make a distinction between "believers" and "non believers" in these passages. He is only showing a difference between doing good or evil "if" God based the gift of eternal life upon our deeds.

By taking just the one passage as you did you missed the meaning of what Paul was actually talking about. By taking just the one verse you totally missed the context with which it was written. And by taking the one verse you went totally against what you posted in your above text..."But you have to consider all of Gods word not just part of it".

I'll be back with the next verse soon.

 

[Atwood]

P.S.:

Signs can operate differently in the OT and NT.
They can be efficacious, as in OT circumcision,
and inefficacious, as in NT baptism.

John says Jesus' miracles are signs, and he is using an entirely different meaning of the word
than is used in OT circumcision or the sacrifices, and in NT baptism.

The only efficaciousness I know of for circumcision under the law, was that if a man refused to be cut off he would be cut off. The story of Moses & Zipporah is funny, but instructive. I can see Moses approaching his baby with a knife & ol Zip grabbing her baby & telling him, No Way! It is interesting that Israel in the wilderness neglected circumcision, so they had a big circumcision party when they got to the promised land.

Physical circumcision was a putting off of flesh. It is typical of Christ's putting off of flesh on the cross, His death. That is the real circumcision. Christians have all been circumcised because we by the Holy Spirit have been put into the Body of Christ in the "mystical union," and what happened to Him then happened to us: We died with Him, were circumcised with Him, were buried/entombed with Him, rose with Him, and ascended with Him. Physical symbolic circumcision is not equivalent to water baptism, though both do symbolize Christ's death. Spirit baptism effects real circumcision.

Col 2
8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ: 9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, 10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power: 11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;

[Because of incorporation into Christ, then Christ's circumcision (putting off of flesh) at the cross, is also our circumcision. We participate in the reality and do not need the symbolic.]

12 having been buried with him in [Spirit] baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith
[no water, no works]
in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Spirit baptism (by placing us into Christ) effects circumcision by uniting His being with ours. So we have been crucified with Christ.

 

[Alligator]

Gator first I think I need to clear some things up here because there seems to be some miscommunication here.

One...I can only speak for myself. This is what the Words of God speak to me through the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Proverbs 3:5,6).

Two...I do not despise "works" and I have never said "good works" should not be part of a Christians life. The point that I have been arguing is that we are not "saved" or "justified" by our "works".

Three...I do not base my beliefs off of just one or two passages of scripture. I do look at the Bible as a whole. But notice what you have done here...you have picked single passages to defend your case. (Except the Hebrews passages).

Four..This will take some reading on both our parts as I am not going to look at these passages all at once. They need to each be done separately. So yeah we will have to scroll through other posts to stay on track. But also read others posts to see if they pertain to what we are talking about. If we just ignore other posts we might miss a vital point that either one of us are making

Ok I chose to begin with Romans 2:6. First here you just picked out one verse that says "according to his deeds" (NKJV) "according to what he has done" (NIV) without reading the before or after. This argument should be based on Romans 2:5-10. Paul is discussing the principle of judgement according to deeds. He is in no way saying that our deeds save us but looking at how God would judge "according to deeds". For those insisting on doing evil there would be "trouble and distress". For those doing good there would be "glory, honor and peace". Paul actually doesn't make a distinction between "believers" and "non believers" in these passages. He is only showing a difference between doing good or evil "if" God based the gift of eternal life upon our deeds.

By taking just the one passage as you did you missed the meaning of what Paul was actually talking about. By taking just the one verse you totally missed the context with which it was written. And by taking the one verse you went totally against what you posted in your above text..."But you have to consider all of Gods word not just part of it".

I'll be back with the next verse soon.

First of all, when I referred to those that despise works, I was not referring to you. I admitted that I did Not include other versus that was not my point. All the verses on faith already been discussed numerous times, so I was only referring to the scriptures that mostly have not been discussed.

I am certainly beyond using a scripture without considering the context. I have read your response to Romans 2:6 I have considered your opinion. I do not see that it changes verse six, it says what it says.

 

[Atwood]

Okay, I will do that. Finally someone with a question without name calling. Since there are several people on this board who despise works [no they do not, but works follow salvation] and think they have nothing to do with salvation I will list a few of these important Scriptures.
Rom. 2:6; Matt. 16:27; James 2:24; Rev. 20:12; Matt. 7:21; Heb. 5:8-9; 2nd Cor. 5'10; yes, I realize there are a lot of scriptures that just mention faith. But you have to consider all of Gods word not just part of it.

None of those verses you quote say that works save anyone. Thus your number of works-verses-save is zero. One thing to do in considering the subject is to realize that judgment is a different doctrine from salvation. Judgment is by works. But salvation is by grace through faith. Salvation is about a Savior Who loves us, has mercy on sinners, and rescues them from their sinful condition with the free gift of eternal life. All He asks is that you trust Him.

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.

Jeremiah 17
Thus saith YHWH: Cursed is the man who trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from YHWH. 6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh, but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, a salt land and not inhabited. 7 Blessed is the man who trusts in YHWH, and whose trust is YHWH. 8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, that spreads out its roots by the river, and shall not fear when heat comes, but its leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

"Your faith has saved you."

 

[Atwood]

Re: Contradiction of WORDS..But

There are 3 choices:
1) Trust in an idol, like water,
2) Trust in YHWH, the Lord Jesus,
3) Trust in man, human works.

Jeremiah addresses 2 & 3:

Jeremiah 17
Thus saith YHWH:
Cursed is the man who trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from YHWH. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh, but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, a salt land and not inhabited.

Blessed is the man who trusts in YHWH, and whose trust is YHWH. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, that spreads out its roots by the river, and shall not fear when heat comes, but its leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

To trust in human works is to trust in man, particularly in your ornery self.

 

[elf3]

First of all, when I referred to those that despise works, I was not referring to you. I admitted that I did Not include other versus that was not my point. All the verses on faith already been discussed numerous times, so I was only referring to the scriptures that mostly have not been discussed.

I am certainly beyond using a scripture without considering the context. I have read your response to Romans 2:6 I have considered your opinion. I do not see that it changes verse six, it says what it says.

Actually reading all of the verses together totally changes the context of verse 6. But what you just did again was pull out verse 6 and define it by itself. You basically refused to take it into context according to the rest.

 

[elf3]

First of all, when I referred to those that despise works, I was not referring to you. I admitted that I did Not include other versus that was not my point. All the verses on faith already been discussed numerous times, so I was only referring to the scriptures that mostly have not been discussed.

I am certainly beyond using a scripture without considering the context. I have read your response to Romans 2:6 I have considered your opinion. I do not see that it changes verse six, it says what it says.

I'll post the next in a bit

 

[SeaBass]

You can write it in blue, red and purple and then assume all you want sea perch as eternal salvation is based upon the faith of Jesus and has nothing at all to do with works.....get past salvation and then ask me about after being saved as EVERYONE who has posted that believes in ONCE SAVED always SAVED based upon the perfect faith of Christ has stated clearly our position on what happens AFTER one is saved.....You fail to understand that ANY GOOD WORK that FOLLOWS BIBLICAL salvation based upon FAITH is accomplished by JESUS dia the HOLY SPIRIT that dwells in you....WHAT happens after salvation is not what is being contested, but rather HOW ONE IS SAVED...so.....round and round the merry go round goes and you still fail to understand biblical salvation which is no big surprise here for sure!

So one who always does evil, unrighteousness and disobedient to God all their life can be saved?

Why so afraid to give a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer to such a simple question?

 

[SeaBass]

Your foolish human reasoning is showing.

If grace is unconditional one can then do as he pleases and still receive grace, right?

 

[SeaBass]

Are you really that blind to what you are saying....serious....your theology and words constantly contradict themselves for sure.....wow!

Naaman is a perfect example of God's grace having a condition of a work being done (dipping 7 times) to receive God's grace yet that work in no way earns God's grace, right?

 

[SeaBass]

Another contradiction of words and terms so as to push COC doctrine....

had to do a work to conditionally receive God's grace
yet that work did not earn God's Grace

Are you seriously that blind to your own contradiction of words and phrases?

Contradiction????

I am taking the story of Naaman straight from the bible.

Did Naaman dip 7 times in the river? Did he come away clean? Did he then merit his own healing and God's grace had nothing to do with it?

 

[dcontroversal]

First of all, when I referred to those that despise works, I was not referring to you. I admitted that I did Not include other versus that was not my point. All the verses on faith already been discussed numerous times, so I was only referring to the scriptures that mostly have not been discussed.

I am certainly beyond using a scripture without considering the context. I have read your response to Romans 2:6 I have considered your opinion. I do not see that it changes verse six, it says what it says.

This just proves that you don't read what is being said, as NOT one person who teaches saved by faith and based upon GRACE has not, HAS NOT despised works so your BIAS is obvious....WORKS are not part of salvation and I suggest you read the book of Galatians very carefully as those who add works to salvation either for or in addition to faith for salvation teach heresy....so again your points are moot and your accusations baseless!

 

[SeaBass]

Previously addressed. . .multiple times.

Contradiction of terms.

And you accuse me of being "Non-responsive"????

Again, Can one who becomes a Christian today NOT EVER do good works per Eph 2:10 and still be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

Was Paul saved in belief or unbelief in Christ?

Saul was saved by an OBEDIENT belief, Acts 22:16.

 

[SeaBass]

Previously addressed. . .multiple times.

Non-responsive

So one who always does evil, unrighteousness and disobedient to God all their life can be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

That's funny because everything we have said here has been Biblically based. We can't help if you choose not to read and study them.

Claiming works (as Naaman dipping) earns grace is as UNbiblical as it gets.

 

[SeaBass]

Look here sea perch.....If you are willing to deny the simple definitions of the words used, will in the end lead you to faulty conclusions....the word OBEY means to pay heed to, pay attention to and to be attentive to...

PAUL and company PAID ATTENTION to the form of doctrine that had been delivered unto them...so I did respond and you blindly with your coke bottle glasses on rejected the truth of the definition of the word OBEY..so like I said man...good luck claiming your COC works for salvation when you stand before the Lord and he denies you entrance into the kingdom.....maybe you can ask Alexander Campbell to mediate for you and see if that helps or claim that is what the commentary said.......!

Evidently you DID NOT notice how Paul put obeying from the heart BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE freed from sin/justification.

 

[dcontroversal]

If grace is unconditional one can then do as he pleases and still receive grace, right?

Were you in sin and doing what you wanted to do and living the way you wanted before you trusted into your works and faith?

 

[dcontroversal]

Evidently you DID NOT notice how Paul put obeying from the heart BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE freed from sin/justification.

Again you reject the word obey and what it actually means......so what is your point? Your point is moot as Paul did not use OBEY in the sense of your application as the definition of the word QUALIFIES what is being said and the ENGLISH translation BY EPISCOPALIAN PRIESTS WHO BELIEVE IN WORKS, SUCH AS YOUR SELF....leads to an erroneous conclusion!

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Contradiction of WORDS..But

There are 3 choices:
1) Trust in an idol, like water,
2) Trust in YHWH, the Lord Jesus,
3) Trust in man, human works.

Jeremiah addresses 2 & 3:

Jeremiah 17
Thus saith YHWH:
Cursed is the man who trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from YHWH. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh, but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, a salt land and not inhabited.

Blessed is the man who trusts in YHWH, and whose trust is YHWH. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, that spreads out its roots by the river, and shall not fear when heat comes, but its leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

To trust in human works is to trust in man, particularly in your ornery self.

Do you trust Jesus when He said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"? (Many do not so much so they try to come up with ways to change and re-write this verse or come up with some way to get rid of it all together.)

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

So do you trust the Lord by doing what He said to do or do you not trust the Lord by not doing the things which He has said to do?