Contradiction of WORDS

[dcontroversal]

Contradiction????

I am taking the story of Naaman straight from the bible.

Did Naaman dip 7 times in the river? Did he come away clean? Did he then merit his own healing and God's grace had nothing to do with it?

Again, doesn't have anything to do with salvation of a soul and is a misapplication of the word toward biblical salvation and IS NOT an example that can be used to accurately describe biblical salvation......!

 

[Alligator]

Actually reading all of the verses together totally changes the context of verse 6. But what you just did again was pull out verse 6 and define it by itself. You basically refused to take it into context according to the rest.

Yes i did. Be specific, what do you think v. 6 means then?

 

[SeaBass]

Were you in sin and doing what you wanted to do and living the way you wanted before you trusted into your works and faith?

When I was in sin and doing what I wanted to do I was lost being outside of God's grace.

But for those that claim grace is unconditional: If grace is unconditional one can then do as he pleases and still receive grace, right?

 

[SeaBass]

Again you reject the word obey and what it actually means......so what is your point? Your point is moot as Paul did not use OBEY in the sense of your application as the definition of the word QUALIFIES what is being said and the ENGLISH translation BY EPISCOPALIAN PRIESTS WHO BELIEVE IN WORKS, SUCH AS YOUR SELF....leads to an erroneous conclusion!

The point Paul made that you do not want to see is Paul put OBEYING BEFORE JUSTIFICATION.

Did the obeying from the heart earn them the justification? No.

 

[SeaBass]

Again, doesn't have anything to do with salvation of a soul and is a misapplication of the word toward biblical salvation and IS NOT an example that can be used to accurately describe biblical salvation......!

By repeating this over again you are essentially saying that you have no argument.

Naaman IS A BIBLE example of God's grace being conditional upon a work being done yet doing the work earned Naaman nothing.

 

[dcontroversal]

The point Paul made that you do not want to see is Paul put OBEYING BEFORE JUSTIFICATION.

Did the obeying from the heart earn them the justification? No.

No...Paul put PAYING HEED to that FORM of DOCTRINE which brought JUSTIFICATION...you still fail to use the correct definition of the word OBEY and what it meant to a 1st century believer....You still fail to understand that salvation comes based upon FAITH into the CORRECT MESSAGE..........!

 

[dcontroversal]

By repeating this over again you are essentially saying that you have no argument.

Naaman IS A BIBLE example of God's grace being conditional upon a work being done yet doing the work earned Naaman nothing.

And by repeating over and over and over again an example which has nothing to do with biblical salvation proves you fail to acknowledge the fact that the examples you use are contradictory to the actual truth of biblical salvation......

1. Was Noah saved and righteous before he built the ark?
2. Did Abraham have FAITH before he was circumcised?
3. Was Abel righteous before he offered BLOOD?

You fail to see that biblical salvation comes to a man based upon the act of faith and that it has nothing at all to do with obedient works as a man CANNOT UNDERSTAND the WILL of GOD and WHAT works are required of a faithful servant BEFORE a man is genuinely born again of the SPIRIT......SO.....you KEEP putting the cart before the OX and fail to understand that a TREE MUST be BORN of a SEED, grow a bit, mature a bit and THEN PRODUCE fruit!

 

[SeaBass]

No...Paul put PAYING HEED to that FORM of DOCTRINE which brought JUSTIFICATION...you still fail to use the correct definition of the word OBEY and what it meant to a 1st century believer....You still fail to understand that salvation comes based upon FAITH into the CORRECT MESSAGE..........!

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Rom 6:17 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

Rom 6:18 "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.:

The three words come from the Greek hypakouo.


Note how "obedience unto righteousness" becomes "obeyed from the heart...being then made free from sin"(justification)

Both times obeying comes BEFORE being justified and righteous.

 

[SeaBass]

And by repeating over and over and over again an example which has nothing to do with biblical salvation proves you fail to acknowledge the fact that the examples you use are contradictory to the actual truth of biblical salvation......

1. Was Noah saved and righteous before he built the ark?
2. Did Abraham have FAITH before he was circumcised?
3. Was Abel righteous before he offered BLOOD?

You fail to see that biblical salvation comes to a man based upon the act of faith and that it has nothing at all to do with obedient works as a man CANNOT UNDERSTAND the WILL of GOD and WHAT works are required of a faithful servant BEFORE a man is genuinely born again of the SPIRIT......SO.....you KEEP putting the cart before the OX and fail to understand that a TREE MUST be BORN of a SEED, grow a bit, mature a bit and THEN PRODUCE fruit!

And by continually saying it has nothing to do with salvation does not disprove my point nor prove yours. It is still BIBLICAL PROOF of receiving God's grace required works but those works earned nothing,

 

[Alligator]

And by continually saying it has nothing to do with saLlllvation does not disprove my point nor prove yours. It is still BIBLICAL PROOF of receiving God's grace required works but those works earned nothing,

im sure this is well over dcon's head but the principle is exactly the same even if it doesn't apply to salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Rom 6:17 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

Rom 6:18 "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.:

The three words come from the Greek hypakouo.


Note how "obedience unto righteousness" becomes "obeyed from the heart...being then made free from sin"(justification)

Both times obeying comes BEFORE being justified and righteous.

Well go back to chapter one and start over as Paul is WRITING THESE THING UNTO SAVED children of God called to BE SAINTS...You still fail to understand the difference between SAVING FAITH and GODLY LIVING after one is SAVED and SEALED by the SPIRIT of GOD dia FAITH.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

im sure this is well over dcon's head but the principle is exactly the same even if it doesn't apply to salvation.

'You too fail to understand the difference between saving faith and GODLY living after salvation....O.T. examples that were required under the LAW are not applicable to the N.T. and being found under the banner of GRACE...Do you not understand that JESUS rebuked the PHARISEES who taught the same heresy that YOU and your cousin TEACH...THEY DEMANDED people place themselves under the religious ORDANINCES and Practices of the LAW/WORKS of the LAW which HUMANITY cannot fully do...it points to JESUS and what he accomplished for humanity and points to GRACE, MERCY and FAITH....SO for you and SEA....DO you KEEP all 600 plus LAWS found in the OT?...DO you two grow a garden? Do you offer 10% of the garden and to whom do you offer it to? Do you go once a year and sacrifice unto the LORD? WHERE do you go and who preforms the sacrifices for you? When you get SICK do you do to the doctors or to the priests and which priests do you go to?<-----this is how your logic bears out and Just like the PHARISEES you swallow camels and choke on the gnats.....EXPLAIN PAUL in the book of GALATIANS and how he dia the H.S. DOUBLE CURSES those who ADD works to FAITH as a means of completing salvation which he calls a GOSPEL of a DIFFERENT KIND that was not taught by the APOSTLES!

 

[Alligator]

'You too fail to understand the difference between saving faith and GODLY living after salvation....O.T. examples that were required under the LAW are not applicable to the N.T. and being found under the banner of GRACE...Do you not understand that JESUS rebuked the PHARISEES who taught the same heresy that YOUOooii and your cousin TEACH...THEY DEMANDED people place themselves under the religious ORDANINCES and Practices of the LAW/WORKS of the LAW which HUMANITY cannot fully do...it points to JESUS and what he accomplished for humanity and points to GRACE, MERCY and FAITH....SO for you and SEA....DO you KEEP all 600 plus LAWS found in the OT?...DO you two grow a garden? Do you offer 10% of the garden and to whom do you offer it to? Do you go once a year and sacrifice unto the LORD? WHERE do you go and who preforms the sacrifices for you? When you get SICK do you do to the doctors or to the priests and which priests do you go to?<-----this is how your logic bears out and Just like the PHARISEES you swallow camels and choke on the gnats.....EXPLAIN PAUL in the book of GALATIANS and how he dia the H.S. DOUBLE CURSES those who ADD works to FAITH as a means of completing salvation which he calls a GOSPEL of a DIFFERENT KIND that was not taught by the APOSTLES!

We have not been under the Law for some 2,000 years, you need to catch up.

Why hy do you think we were given the Old Testament. I'll tell you why, .......Romans 15:4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)KJV reproduced by permission of Cambridge University Press, the Crown’s patentee in the UK.

i repeat The principle is the same.

i

 

[elf3]

Yes i did. Be specific, what do you think v. 6 means then?

I was very specific as to the meaning of verse 6. If you read the whole thing I wrote about Romans 2:5-10 then the meaning of verse 6 is clear.

 

[dcontroversal]

We have not been under the Law for some 2,000 years, you need to catch up.

Why hy do you think we were given the Old Testament. I'll tell you why, .......Romans 15:4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)KJV reproduced by permission of Cambridge University Press, the Crown’s patentee in the UK.

i repeat The principle is the same.

i

And I reiterate that under the law WORKS were required to maintain a walk of righteousness before the God of heaven and that he law pointed to the fact that MAN CANNOT do enough GOOD works to maintain and or GAIN righteousness before the LORD, but rather points to the fact that NO ONE IS GOOD enough and or can do ENOUGH works to earn the eternal righteous standing before GOD....it required the FAITH of the SON of GOD JESUS and the Righteousness of the SON of God being applied unto the believer dia FAITH. ANY WORK of righteousness that a man will do is CHRIST through them and ALL glory GOES to GOD...FAITH SAVES, SEALS and JUSTIFIES a believer and ANY RIGHTEOUS work that FOLLOWS is NOT DONE BY US, but GOD through us.....and cannot add to or supplement the ETERNAL SALVATION that we have in CHRIST as you cannot IMPROVE and or ADD to that which is already a COMPLETED action<----this is what is missed by people who rely upon WORKS and or CLAIM works for salvation and or to supplement salvation!

 

[elf3]

Yes i did. Be specific, what do you think v. 6 means then?

Gator first I think I need to clear some things up here because there seems to be some miscommunication here.

One...I can only speak for myself. This is what the Words of God speak to me through the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Proverbs 3:5,6).

Two...I do not despise "works" and I have never said "good works" should not be part of a Christians life. The point that I have been arguing is that we are not "saved" or "justified" by our "works".

Three...I do not base my beliefs off of just one or two passages of scripture. I do look at the Bible as a whole. But notice what you have done here...you have picked single passages to defend your case. (Except the Hebrews passages).

Four..This will take some reading on both our parts as I am not going to look at these passages all at once. They need to each be done separately. So yeah we will have to scroll through other posts to stay on track. But also read others posts to see if they pertain to what we are talking about. If we just ignore other posts we might miss a vital point that either one of us are making

Ok I chose to begin with Romans 2:6. First here you just picked out one verse that says "according to his deeds" (NKJV) "according to what he has done" (NIV) without reading the before or after. This argument should be based on Romans 2:5-10. Paul is discussing the principle of judgement according to deeds. He is in no way saying that our deeds save us but looking at how God would judge "according to deeds". For those insisting on doing evil there would be "trouble and distress". For those doing good there would be "glory, honor and peace". Paul actually doesn't make a distinction between "believers" and "non believers" in these passages. He is only showing a difference between doing good or evil "if" God based the gift of eternal life upon our deeds.

By taking just the one passage as you did you missed the meaning of what Paul was actually talking about. By taking just the one verse you totally missed the context with which it was written. And by taking the one verse you went totally against what you posted in your above text..."But you have to consider all of Gods word not just part of it".

I'll be back with the next verse soon.

Ok can someone please tell me if my explanation of verse 6 is clear in my explanation? I'll give a hint the sentence begins with the word "He" and ends with the word "deeds". Another hint I actually phrase it two ways meaning the same thing beginning and ending with the same words in two sentences.

 

[Alligator]

Gator first I think I need to clear some things up here because there seems to be some miscommunication here.

One...I can only speak for myself. This is what the Words of God speak to me through the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Proverbs 3:5,6).

Two...I do not despise "works" and I have never said "good works" should not be part of a Christians life. The point that I have been arguing is that we are not "saved" or "justified" by our "works".

Three...I do not base my beliefs off of just one or two passages of scripture. I do look at the Bible as a whole. But notice what you have done here...you have picked single passages to defend your case. (Except the Hebrews passages).

Four..This will take some reading on both our parts as I am not going to look at these passages all at once. They need to each be done separately. So yeah we will have to scroll through other posts to stay on track. But also read others posts to see if they pertain to what we are talking about. If we just ignore other posts we might miss a vital point that either one of us are making

Ok I chose to begin with Romans 2:6. First here you just picked out one verse that says "according to his deeds" (NKJV) "according to what he has done" (NIV) without reading the before or after. This argument should be based on Romans 2:5-10. Paul is discussing the principle of judgement according to deeds. He is in no way saying that our deeds save us but looking at how God would judge "according to deeds". For those insisting on doing evil there would be "trouble and distress". For those doing good there would be "glory, honor and peace". Paul actually doesn't make a distinction between "believers" and "non believers" in these passages. He is only showing a difference between doing good or evil "if" God based the gift of eternal life upon our deeds.

By taking just the one passage as you did you missed the meaning of what Paul was actually talking about. By taking just the one verse you totally missed the context with which it was written. And by taking the one verse you went totally against what you posted in your above text..."But you have to consider all of Gods word not just part of it".

I'll be back with the next verse soon.

Well excuse me for being stupid, but again, I fail,to see how your explanation changes anything. It says you are judged by your deeds. Based on these verses, I wouldn't want to meet God if I had committed no works or sinful works.

 

[elf3]

Yes i did. Be specific, what do you think v. 6 means then?

Well excuse me for being stupid, but again, I fail,to see how your explanation changes anything. It says you are judged by your deeds. Based on these verses, I wouldn't want to meet God if I had committed no works or sinful works.

This group of verses is also showing how God's judgement is impartial. Doesn't matter Jew or gentile. But again still does not in any way show justification by works.

Shall I do the next one?

Oh and gator..in no way am I calling you stupid please understand that. It just frustrated me that I actually answered the meaning of verse 6 twice in the same paragraph and you said I didn't explain it.

 

[Alligator]

This group of verses is also showing how God's judgement is impartial. Doesn't matter Jew or gentile. But again still does not in any way show justification by works.

Shall I do the next one?

Oh and gator..in no way am I calling you stupid please understand that. It just frustrated me that I actually answered the meaning of verse 6 twice in the same paragraph and you said I didn't explain it.

If if you like, go ahead with the next one, we certainly didn't get anywhere with this one. LOL.

y
You did explain it, but I just don't see how you can say we are not justified by works To me that is what he is sAying.
see also,Jas. 2:24t

 

[elf3]

If if you like, go ahead with the next one, we certainly didn't get anywhere with this one. LOL.

y
You did explain it, but I just don't see how you can say we are not justified by works To me that is what he is sAying.
see also,Jas. 2:24t

Actually there are a couple verses that do show where justification comes from and the order of grace faith and works but I would like to start with the verses you presented. And James 2:24 is one needed talked about but that's one used a lot so rather do that later. If that's ok?

Oh and one step at a time referring to your LOL haha!