ONE BAPTISM - Ephesians 4:5
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I notice you didn't answer my questions. Not only that but you've taken another passage of Scripture out of context. The first passage in context was speaking to the Hebrews who were told to put blood on their door posts and the death angel would pass over them. This has absolutely nothing to do with baptism. The Hebrews weren't told to be baptized so that the death angel would pass over them. And now Mark 16 you ask if I cast out demons, speak in tongues etc. If you read the passage in context, you wouldn't need to ask me that question.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they1 will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen1. (Mar 16:15-1 NKJ)
You see, the passage says that those who believed "THEIR" preaching, the Lord went with "THEM". I didn't hear the apostles preach so this passage is not applicable to me.
As I said in the other post, the arguments against baptism consist of taking passages out of context.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they1 will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen1. (Mar 16:15-1 NKJ)
You see, the passage says that those who believed "THEIR" preaching, the Lord went with "THEM". I didn't hear the apostles preach so this passage is not applicable to me.
As I said in the other post, the arguments against baptism consist of taking passages out of context.
Keep trusting your water is all I can say.....see where it gets you in due time as to add to Jesus and biblical faith is a gospel of a different kind and has no power to save.....immersion is a picture of what has taken place inwardly by faith...it is the first act of obedience AFTER salvation..it is the public testimony of inward saving faith and has NO POWER to save, keep saved, help get saved...so....good luck with that!
I guess you lack understanding of the paintings found through the O.T. as the PASSOVER and the BLOOD applied is INDICATIVE OF JESUS and the BLOOD BEING APPLIED......THE IDENTIFIER is immersion (RED SEA) and SEPERATES US FROM THE GENERATION OF THE GUILTY and the WORLD......so....Like I said...keep reading in something that is not there and at the end of the day you trust water over the blood!
I guess you lack understanding of the paintings found through the O.T. as the PASSOVER and the BLOOD applied is INDICATIVE OF JESUS and the BLOOD BEING APPLIED......THE IDENTIFIER is immersion (RED SEA) and SEPERATES US FROM THE GENERATION OF THE GUILTY and the WORLD......so....Like I said...keep reading in something that is not there and at the end of the day you trust water over the blood!
P
Im laughing at myself as. im reading through all this and im laughing because I can't find words good enough to write out what gods been doing.. thats because he is so multifaceted and rich in how he does it that there isn't enough room to write the experience in it... I will say that it is something only God can do... the description of the beauty can't be captured in words... and to think god isnt creative enough to put his very own signature mark of his baptism on each of us... well.... He can... going through what I've been going through with god ... I can also say I can barely handle whatbhebhas been doing... and if he were to do it all at once... I would explode.. I really mean that...his anointing in this area has been slow for me... when his a nnointing happens. It reminds me of those buzzers you put in your hand to play a practical joke on someone... at first it shocks you because you dont know what's happening, then stunned trying to figure out what just happened, then come to your senses that it really did just happen, then when it all makes sense it becomes hilarious... heaven is going to be like that tv show bloopers..we are going to do a lot of laughing over the review...
Yeah added by men to the cannon as they too erroneously added water where water was not added....again you fail to acknowledge the truth........
Ephesians 2..Saved by faith
John 3:16 Saved by faith
Titus 3 Saved by MERCY
Romans 3 Justified by FAITH
Galatians 3 Justified by faith
For every ONE you take out of context there are 10 to 30 that teach faith based upon BLOOD
Lets try again.....ANSWER THE FOLLOWING which DID GOD SAY....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Which did God give under inspiration?...
A. When I see the blood I will pass over you...
B. When I see the blood, water and works I will pass over you....
I am the LORD THY GOD..I CHANGE NOT!
You pick...A = biblical salvation...B= A gospel of a different kind which has no power to save...
Quite simple!
Ephesians 2..Saved by faith
John 3:16 Saved by faith
Titus 3 Saved by MERCY
Romans 3 Justified by FAITH
Galatians 3 Justified by faith
For every ONE you take out of context there are 10 to 30 that teach faith based upon BLOOD
Lets try again.....ANSWER THE FOLLOWING which DID GOD SAY....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
A. When I see the blood I will pass over you...
B. When I see the blood, water and works I will pass over you....
I am the LORD THY GOD..I CHANGE NOT!
You pick...A = biblical salvation...B= A gospel of a different kind which has no power to save...
Quite simple!
Dude you are ate up and your reasoning is flawed a bit....If baptism was necessary it would be included EVERY PLACE YOU FIND SALVATION AND HOW TO AQUIRE SALVATION.....Go ahead and take the two or three scriptures that you use to teach water and keep trusting them and wait and see.....wont be long anyway as the end is near!
It's really about proper reasoning, this stuff is easy to understand when we apply the proper methods. There are many who either can't or won't employ the proper methods. The proper method is to combine all of the information we find on a subject and consider it, not just the info we want to believe.
If your boss came to you and said, I'll need the Johnson report by the end of the day, and then later came and said, I'll need the Johnson and Thomas reports by the end of the day, do you skip over the Thomas report and tell your boss, well you didn't tell me about the Thomas report the first time so it isn't necessary? No, you'd put both statements together and understand that he wants both reports. Well, that's the same thing to do with the Scriptures. If one passage says believe and another says believe and be baptized, the logical answer is to combine the two. However, many don't do that simply be cause it doesn't agree with what they want to believe.
If your boss came to you and said, I'll need the Johnson report by the end of the day, and then later came and said, I'll need the Johnson and Thomas reports by the end of the day, do you skip over the Thomas report and tell your boss, well you didn't tell me about the Thomas report the first time so it isn't necessary? No, you'd put both statements together and understand that he wants both reports. Well, that's the same thing to do with the Scriptures. If one passage says believe and another says believe and be baptized, the logical answer is to combine the two. However, many don't do that simply be cause it doesn't agree with what they want to believe.
My reasoning isn't flawed, I"m not the one basing my doctrine on logical fallacies. Your statement, "If baptism was necessary it would be included EVERY PLACE YOU FIND SALVATION AND HOW TO AQUIRE SALVATION." is another logical fallacy, it's an argument from silence, it assumes that everywhere faith is mentioned purports to present the entirety of what is required for salvation. There is nowhere in Scripture that we given a checklist of salvation. Repentance is necessary for salvation yet it isn't mentioned every time faith is. Calling on the name of the Lord is required for salvation but isn't mentioned everywhere faith is, so, to claim that baptism must be is illogical.
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C
Brother Sea Bass, don't give up on us, please. I've prayed since my last post that The Lord would heal you from our disagreement and while I was posting that last post I felt that it would be better to let you guys work this out and one hour after I posted, a brother came on and gave the verses that I wanted to post.
I'm only posting them now so we know what we're saying without having to go back to find it -
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Brother, I've left two threads when things got heated and this wasn't one of them. I just can't handle when the font get big. That's like posting in all caps to me. We can communicate on the same level and not get 'bigger' than those we differ with. That's what the large font seems to me. And then the name calling was in that one also and everything but Scripture for Scripture but fairy tale names and that sort of one-up-manship style of "biting and devouring".
The other thread was where I was being partially quoted and there's a crafty way of posting that attempts to make it look as if what you're saying is what they want others to think you're saying. That's craft. No thread is worth staying on when you have to keep correcting a person on how they're supposedly 'quoting you'. Been there before and I know that m.o..
Love doesn't do these things and without Love - we're not saved.
I enjoyed getting into the grammar with you on that other thread. It is certainly the highway to prove out a "Truth".
Like in John 3:16, that everyone knows - the word in the KJV "believeth" is a present active participle which as you know is "a continuous action". So it's "whosoever is continuously believing". Just figured you'd like that too.
And then we go to all of the cross-references to 'continue in the faith' type verses.
I love exegesis and hermeneutics and love to share that love with others that do as well. Sure beats the days that as an 'adult' I still liked using my crayons & coloring books during my free time.
I'm still new here but it's been my only fellowship with The Church except for phone calls from out of State friends. I tried 5 different churches in the area but didn't feel at home at any but feel at home here. Just need to ride the waves but will continue to avoid any tsunamis.
Bless you & yours today!
I'm only posting them now so we know what we're saying without having to go back to find it -
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Brother, I've left two threads when things got heated and this wasn't one of them. I just can't handle when the font get big. That's like posting in all caps to me. We can communicate on the same level and not get 'bigger' than those we differ with. That's what the large font seems to me. And then the name calling was in that one also and everything but Scripture for Scripture but fairy tale names and that sort of one-up-manship style of "biting and devouring".
The other thread was where I was being partially quoted and there's a crafty way of posting that attempts to make it look as if what you're saying is what they want others to think you're saying. That's craft. No thread is worth staying on when you have to keep correcting a person on how they're supposedly 'quoting you'. Been there before and I know that m.o..
Love doesn't do these things and without Love - we're not saved.
I enjoyed getting into the grammar with you on that other thread. It is certainly the highway to prove out a "Truth".
Like in John 3:16, that everyone knows - the word in the KJV "believeth" is a present active participle which as you know is "a continuous action". So it's "whosoever is continuously believing". Just figured you'd like that too.
And then we go to all of the cross-references to 'continue in the faith' type verses.
I love exegesis and hermeneutics and love to share that love with others that do as well. Sure beats the days that as an 'adult' I still liked using my crayons & coloring books during my free time.
I'm still new here but it's been my only fellowship with The Church except for phone calls from out of State friends. I tried 5 different churches in the area but didn't feel at home at any but feel at home here. Just need to ride the waves but will continue to avoid any tsunamis.
Bless you & yours today!
You're reading your theology into the passage. You said, "Peter preached Christ and souls got saved. Then in vs 48 Peter tells them to baptize them with water and Peter stayed to disciple them certain days." You're assuming they were saved before water baptism. The passage doesn't say that, that comes from your theology.
However, this passage is descriptive not prescriptive. It just tells us what happened there, this isn't telling us if it will happen to everyone, or even if it will ever happen again, it's just an event in history. On the other end of the scale are those in Samaria who believed and didn't receive the Spirit until the apostles came and bestowed Him.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Act 8:14-16 NKJ)
Here you have believers who were baptized and hadn't received the Spirit, that's just the opposite of what we see in Ats 10. Both of these passages are descriptive, they just tells us about something that happened. Neither passage promises the Holy Spirit, they just tell us what happened. However, Luke does go on to tell how the Holy Spirit was given.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." (Act 8:17-19 NKJ)
This passage is both descriptive and prescriptive. It tells us what happened but it also tells us how the Holy Spirit was being given, it was through the apostles. If you search the Scriptures I don't believe you'll find any passage (after Jesus ascension) where the Holy Spirit was given apart from the presence of an apostle. There are several passages that show the Holy Spirit was given though the apostles. I believe the event at Cornelius' house is the only time recorded that one received the Holy Spirit before being water baptized, so this is the exception not the rule. We can't take the exception and overturn the rule, that's not proper reasoning. When the government produces coins there is inevitably at least one coin that is defective, they don't take that coin and say this is the one and discard all the ones that were made correctly.
One has to also ask, if the Holy Spirit came on one at the moment of belief, why did Peter have to come to Cornelius? Cornelius already believed in God and knew of Jesus.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
36 "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ-- He is Lord of all--
37 "that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:
38 "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. (Act 10:34-38 NKJ)
If Cornelius already know all of this what need was there for Peter to come? It could be that the presence of an apostle was necessary for the Holy Spirit to come upon them. This event may have been more for Peter and those Jews with him than for Cornelius.
I's like to say that I'm not intending to be harsh or rude to anyone, and if anyone has understood me that way I apologize. The point I am trying to make is that these debates really boil down to proper reasoning. The back and forth with Scripture passages doesn't accomplish much. If we're not using proper methods of reasoning we'll get nowhere which is why these debates rage on and on. You know, as Christians we claim to be following the one who is the truth, it seems to me that we should do everything we can to come to the truth and that includes giving up our favorite doctrine is necessary. Until Christians start reasoning properly and come to the truth we'll continue to be pretty much ineffective for God.
C
I'd like to add that, from the post where you & I got Acts 10, that I don't think that Sea Bass is outside the gates and I think we can differ without being so harsh. I think we need to go a bit easier on each other as far as judging another's salvation. I didn't read the whole of the post but as I came on having Acts 10 on my mind, there was his post to Sea Bass.
You addressed that post to Sea Bass as well, I see -
I just would like to post those verses -
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Brother Butch - are we "assuming" that they were saved before water baptism - looking at these verses?
They were filled with the Holy Ghost and then they were taken to the water. Isn't that salvation before water baptism?
You addressed that post to Sea Bass as well, I see -
I just would like to post those verses -
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Brother Butch - are we "assuming" that they were saved before water baptism - looking at these verses?
They were filled with the Holy Ghost and then they were taken to the water. Isn't that salvation before water baptism?
The passage in Acts 8 to which you refer has to do with a filling of the Holy Spirit for power much like Acts 2 at Pentecost. Baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs the moment a soul trusts Christ for salvation. This happens only one time. There are many subsequent filling of the Holy Spirit as we are strengthened to serve our Savior. Here in Acts we see a sign gift of tongues to confirm the authority of the message preached or the messenger.
Cornelius confirmed before the Jews that were present that it was the same Holy Spirit ministering in the Gentiles as they had seen ministering in the Jews at Pentecost. Remember the complete canon of scripture was not yet delivered.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Cornelius confirmed before the Jews that were present that it was the same Holy Spirit ministering in the Gentiles as they had seen ministering in the Jews at Pentecost. Remember the complete canon of scripture was not yet delivered.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I'm glad you see a difference between the two, that is helpful. However, to claim that one receives the spirit the moment they believe is not supported by Scripture. Where do you find anything in Scripture that says a person receives the Spirit the moment they believe? The promise is that the Holy Spirit is given after baptism. Peter said that and we gave Jesus as an example.
Hi ChristIsGod,
My post was to Notuptome, not Sea Bass.
To you question, It only appears that way if one believes that one is saved when the Holy Spirit is given. However, Scripture shows us that salvation is a life long process and not a one time event. An initial turning to Christ is a one time event at which point one enters into a relationship with God through Christ. I can be said that one is saved at this point. The problem is that those who hold the OSAS doctrine see the entirety of salvation as this one time event and that is not what the Scriptures teach. Many Christians wonder why the world rejects Christianity. One of the reasons is the improper reasoning that is rampant among Christians. This is why many who are intellectual confuse Christians and sadly make some look silly. If we are really truth seekers as we should be then as Christians we should seek to root out any fallacious reasoning in out theology so that we can attain the truth. We shouldn't have pet doctrines that we put above the truth. however, this doctrine of OSAS sometimes seems to me to be a Baal. Some of the things I have heard Christians claim from the Scriptures to protect this doctrine are mind numbing. On another forum I actually had one Christian claim that people who had cast off their faith, received damnation, and followed after Satan, was still saved. How absurd is that to say that person who followed Satan was still saved, just to protect a doctrine created by man?
My post was to Notuptome, not Sea Bass.
To you question, It only appears that way if one believes that one is saved when the Holy Spirit is given. However, Scripture shows us that salvation is a life long process and not a one time event. An initial turning to Christ is a one time event at which point one enters into a relationship with God through Christ. I can be said that one is saved at this point. The problem is that those who hold the OSAS doctrine see the entirety of salvation as this one time event and that is not what the Scriptures teach. Many Christians wonder why the world rejects Christianity. One of the reasons is the improper reasoning that is rampant among Christians. This is why many who are intellectual confuse Christians and sadly make some look silly. If we are really truth seekers as we should be then as Christians we should seek to root out any fallacious reasoning in out theology so that we can attain the truth. We shouldn't have pet doctrines that we put above the truth. however, this doctrine of OSAS sometimes seems to me to be a Baal. Some of the things I have heard Christians claim from the Scriptures to protect this doctrine are mind numbing. On another forum I actually had one Christian claim that people who had cast off their faith, received damnation, and followed after Satan, was still saved. How absurd is that to say that person who followed Satan was still saved, just to protect a doctrine created by man?