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Born of water and the Spirit
the context of this verse is about water of the womb.. and the Spirit being the Holy Spirit. Not a baptism verse..
it is being born of the womb.. and then later being born into God's family by His salvation of our soul. So we become members of the Family and Kingdom of God.
So.. to clarify my question above.. is being born into this Family of God.. not as deep as our biological connection to our earthly family?
Being saved by Jesus and being indwelled by the Holy Spirit are the same thing.. you don't have to wait for the indwelling.
We don't lose a member of our earthly family by unfaithfulness.. why would we lose a member of our spiritual family by unfaithfulness when it is deeper and more important than our bio family?
the context of this verse is about water of the womb.. and the Spirit being the Holy Spirit. Not a baptism verse..
it is being born of the womb.. and then later being born into God's family by His salvation of our soul. So we become members of the Family and Kingdom of God.
So.. to clarify my question above.. is being born into this Family of God.. not as deep as our biological connection to our earthly family?
Being saved by Jesus and being indwelled by the Holy Spirit are the same thing.. you don't have to wait for the indwelling.
We don't lose a member of our earthly family by unfaithfulness.. why would we lose a member of our spiritual family by unfaithfulness when it is deeper and more important than our bio family?
I agree but I'd say that salvation is not due to being a child of God, because sons of disobedience are eligable to be punished as well:
Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness (which is idolatry),
Col 3:6 on account of which things' sake the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience,
Col 3:7 among whom you also once walked, when you lived in these.
In James the author addressed those within the church and even said they would become an enemy of God if they persisted in their worldiness:
Jas 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever desires to be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Christ speaking of an unfaithful servant, who has put away all good faith and conscience (i.e. a christian who turns bad):
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness (which is idolatry),
Col 3:6 on account of which things' sake the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience,
Col 3:7 among whom you also once walked, when you lived in these.
In James the author addressed those within the church and even said they would become an enemy of God if they persisted in their worldiness:
Jas 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever desires to be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Christ speaking of an unfaithful servant, who has put away all good faith and conscience (i.e. a christian who turns bad):
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
S
have you not read that some names are blotted out of the lambs book of life and how a man can lose his salvation and if he has been blessed with a very very close relationship that he cannot get it back even with tears? You can go to hell even after salvation. its just a fact and whoever taught you otherwise has lead you very astray
M
we can all argue till our face is purple,which for some im sure has literally happened.In regards to a previous scripture posted one thing I hope we can agree on to put things into perspective is this
Heb 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
C
I don't believe it is possible for someone to "lose" their salvation. Salvation, like sin, is more than a simple act or deed. It is more than a single prayer, it is a condition of the heart. Do I believe that a believer who dies in a car crash goes to hell because they had an bad argument with their spouse where many hurtful things were said before leaving the house? No, not if this person possessed a repentant heart.
However, I do believe it is possible for someone to intentionally forfiet their salvation due to very stressful circumstances where a one time believer loses all faith and decides to walk away. I have seen this happen three times in my life time, two of which were men that had served in ministry and bore good fruit for a number of years. I prayerfully hope that these to men have since returned to faith and recommitted their lives to the Lord because to see and hear about their spiritual demise was painful experience from afar. I can't begin to fathom what it must have been like to actually live through it.
However, I do believe it is possible for someone to intentionally forfiet their salvation due to very stressful circumstances where a one time believer loses all faith and decides to walk away. I have seen this happen three times in my life time, two of which were men that had served in ministry and bore good fruit for a number of years. I prayerfully hope that these to men have since returned to faith and recommitted their lives to the Lord because to see and hear about their spiritual demise was painful experience from afar. I can't begin to fathom what it must have been like to actually live through it.
S
You are so convinced that we can walk away from our salvation here on earth, what makes you so sure that we won't be able to do that in heaven? Isn't heaven, the place of God's throne, where iniquity was found in Lucifer (Satan, the devil) and he was kicked out. Is the answer to this our new glorified bodies or some special seal we get from God? What about during the Millennium, when we come back to earth in our new bodies, wouldn't it be possible for us to walk away during that time, especially at the end when Satan is loosed again or are you going to have to persevere all that time? Remember, there will be people on the earth that will have their old sin natures, so sin will not stop even though it will be ruled over by the righteous / Rev 22:11.
You can't make the assertion that we won't have an old sin nature anymore, therefore we can't sin and be rejected. Adam and his wife had no sin nature and they were deceived and transgressed and were kicked out of the garden. If we can't walk away from it in heaven or when we come back to earth, just exactly what is it that makes that impossible? Isn't the salvation we received on earth when we first believed, the same salvation that can not be taken from us throughout eternity? Maybe you would like to bail out on this question and say that the scriptures are quiet and have nothing to say about it, but knowing you and what you are like, NO CHANCE OF THAT!
You can't make the assertion that we won't have an old sin nature anymore, therefore we can't sin and be rejected. Adam and his wife had no sin nature and they were deceived and transgressed and were kicked out of the garden. If we can't walk away from it in heaven or when we come back to earth, just exactly what is it that makes that impossible? Isn't the salvation we received on earth when we first believed, the same salvation that can not be taken from us throughout eternity? Maybe you would like to bail out on this question and say that the scriptures are quiet and have nothing to say about it, but knowing you and what you are like, NO CHANCE OF THAT!
R
Eternal security is an important doctrine fellow saints, the devil is using people to attack it.
http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=6636
http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=6636
S
and around and around we go.....
Ive spoken before on this, ill find it and post it again. Now as to faith growing over time. There are scriptures that support this. A few I like are { The rightousness of God is like the first gleem of dawn, growing ever brighter till the full light of day} rightous translation also refurs to faith. The second is where Jesus refurs to the mustard seed and how it grows to one of the largest plants in the field .
From what I see here is many want to sum up faith and what Jesus gave us and asks us in a few words.
What I have learned is that it is greater than words.
The scripture is given so that like Our Lord God, the understanding of faith is limitless.
You can take and say its about obediance, or you can say salvation is set in stone but from what I have read and learned over 45 plus years is that all we do, all we say, all our streangth, all our faith, hope and love comes from Our father in heaven.
One cannot claim any glory for anything they do if they are in Jesus.
We can only be certian that when we commit in faith that which we do to the Lord, only then can we succeed.
Dont you get it, dont you see, that all we have , all we do, that eternal life itsself comes from Our Lord God.
So if one commits everything including obediance or salvation, it is not you but Jesus that has obtained it for you.
Yes we should obey, but do not think it is by your own power that it is accomplished. Yes we have salvation, but not because of you eather.
If all is commited to Our Lord God then one can be confident of being with the Lord. It is not this or that, it is all that you are, commited to Jesus, that is salvation.
The faith in Jesus by his sacrifice, the hope that he will keep you under his watchfull eye and make all you do good in the sight of God Our Father.
Then knowing the love of God Our Father which is so great that it surpasses all understanding, yet we know it in his Spirit.
I have loved Our Lord God all of my life. The father, Jesus and his spirit. I have stumbled, argued, been angry. I have trusted, given all Of myself time and time again because as I grew I saw more of myself because of Jesus, that I needed to commit to him
.His Love is ever presant never ending and full of grace.
None can some up faith and salvation in a few words.
God is all that is. His life giving waters are all from him. One long lasting perfect drink.
It is not this or that.
It is what Our Lord God reviels to you through His Spirit and all trusted to him. He gives you all and reviels what you need as you need it.
You see we already have everything, we just have to give over and commit ourselves.
IN this all that we know, become, do, see, is from Our Lord God to his Glory.
Be still and know Our Lord God.
God bless, pickles
From what I see here is many want to sum up faith and what Jesus gave us and asks us in a few words.
What I have learned is that it is greater than words.
The scripture is given so that like Our Lord God, the understanding of faith is limitless.
You can take and say its about obediance, or you can say salvation is set in stone but from what I have read and learned over 45 plus years is that all we do, all we say, all our streangth, all our faith, hope and love comes from Our father in heaven.
One cannot claim any glory for anything they do if they are in Jesus.
We can only be certian that when we commit in faith that which we do to the Lord, only then can we succeed.
Dont you get it, dont you see, that all we have , all we do, that eternal life itsself comes from Our Lord God.
So if one commits everything including obediance or salvation, it is not you but Jesus that has obtained it for you.
Yes we should obey, but do not think it is by your own power that it is accomplished. Yes we have salvation, but not because of you eather.
If all is commited to Our Lord God then one can be confident of being with the Lord. It is not this or that, it is all that you are, commited to Jesus, that is salvation.
The faith in Jesus by his sacrifice, the hope that he will keep you under his watchfull eye and make all you do good in the sight of God Our Father.
Then knowing the love of God Our Father which is so great that it surpasses all understanding, yet we know it in his Spirit.
I have loved Our Lord God all of my life. The father, Jesus and his spirit. I have stumbled, argued, been angry. I have trusted, given all Of myself time and time again because as I grew I saw more of myself because of Jesus, that I needed to commit to him
.His Love is ever presant never ending and full of grace.
None can some up faith and salvation in a few words.
God is all that is. His life giving waters are all from him. One long lasting perfect drink.
It is not this or that.
It is what Our Lord God reviels to you through His Spirit and all trusted to him. He gives you all and reviels what you need as you need it.
You see we already have everything, we just have to give over and commit ourselves.
IN this all that we know, become, do, see, is from Our Lord God to his Glory.
Be still and know Our Lord God.
God bless, pickles