Death...The Price of Sin...Paid?

[DiscipleDave]

If "Jesus brings heaven to earth with Him when He comes" as you allege, then how the heck does "fire come down FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN" at the end of His Millennial Reign? Like I said, unlike you, I know the truth.

If i told you the Truth, how will you believe it? If you don't believe the trivial things that i have said, how will you believe the major things? If you will not believe the simple things that i have said, you WILL NOT believe the major things.
But even though you will not believe it, those who have the Truth in them, will benefit from what i am going to say. And i challenge everyone to be as the Bereans were in the Disciples days. When they heard things they did not agree with, they went to the Word of God to see if what was being said was True or not. Don't be one of those in the last days generation, who will NOT go to the Word of God and search it out for the answers, this generation will merely disregard it, because it is contrary to what they believe is the Truth, and WILL NOT go to the Word of God to prove it otherwise. If i say anything that is not Scriptural, then as a Good Soldier in Jesus Christ, and your Christian duty, please point that out to me, so i can correct my error in thinking. How is it? Many who disagree with what i say, can't find one Scripture that contradict what i say, they only disagree because it contradicts their own thought of what the Truth is. blind trying to the blind.

When Christ appears in the sky. The New City Jerusalem will also appear, it will be landing over the now present Jerusalem. The New City Jerusalem will set down on the Earth using mountains for its support, there will be a valley underneath this Huge City, where refugees will gather. Meanwhile while this is happening at the now present Jerusalam. Christ with the Saints are going around the world heading towards the west, gathering the dead first, then those which are alive and found to be True Christians. They will meet Christ in the air with Him as He is traveling around the world, they will end up back at the New City Jerusalem where they will enter and each one shown their mansion within the New City Jerusalem, each according to the Tribe in which he or she is descended from. After this point there are 3 1/2 years to go BEFORE the millennium starts

After the Rapture happens, Judgement Day. the World will gather all nations to attack the New City Jerusalem, they will be calling it a UFO, the Mothership. Every single living thing that comes against it will die horribly. For the next 3 1/2 years after the arrival of Jesus Christ, the wicked are going to be removed from the planet, this is done via the vials that are poured out upon the Earth. By the end of the 7th vial, the Earth will be destroyed and all the wicked will be gone, the only humans that remain at that time will be 144,000 kids. These are they that are virgins, and do not know what sin is. These are they that will repopulate the Earth for a thousand years. AGE during this time is restored, a person who dies at the age of 100 will be considered a child. The tree of life grows along the four rivers that come out from the New City Jerusalem, there is not more oceans, and it does not rain ever again. During the thousand year reign of Christ on Earth, which He and we Saints will reign over the 144,000 that were sealed of God and make it out of the Tribulation Period, he Earth will then become like the Garden of Eden was. satan is bound during the Millennium, there is no sinning. But at the end of God's Sabbath Day (1000 years) satan is released to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment. War immediately breaks out, and they try to overtake the New City Jerusalem, if they can overtake that City, they can travel anywhere in the Universe that they want to go. Then fire from God out of Heaven destroys all those who try to overtake the City. and Death and Hell and satan and demons, and all those who follow the ways of satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire for ever and ever, never to be a threat again in the Universe. But when they are released they will fight with everything they have to escape this foretold punishment from God.
Now i have told you the Truth as God told it to me. If you do not believe me, you do not believe God which told me these things. And if you can't find even one verse that is contrary to what i just said, than of a Truth what i have just said does not contradict what Scriptures teach, but only your opinion of what you think the Truth is.
But here is where my hope is, and it brings me comfort. If you have just read what i have wrote, even though this generation will fight against it tooth and nail, and this wicked generation will not believe it, because the Truth is not in them, what brings me hope and comfort, is, when all of this starts to happen exactly as i have said it would happen, then the Holy Spirit of God will cause you to remember that all that you are seeing, has been foretold to you, and when you see it happening, you will not believe it is a UFO, but know, because you were foretold what the world would call it, you will know it is the New City Jerusalem. Well that is my hope and comfort.

^i^

 

[Yahshua]

I appreciate your reply EG...Thanks for helping, I'm "eternally grateful"

What type of death is the question.

1. Adam died the moment he sinned
2. We are said to be (already) dead, as we are in adam
3. Jesus said we who are dead, must be born again (made alive) in Christ.
4. Scripture says we must be born again.

Physical death is a result of sin, as is sickness, and disease, these bodied started to die the moment sin entered the world. as has the world around us.

Spiritual death (separation from God) is the penalty of sin. Christ suffered this while on the cross. as he said, My God My God why have you departed (forsaken) from me. Physical death did not occur until after he said "it is finished" the price for sin had already been suffered.

Yeah I guess it's physical death I'm focused on in this thread. I see where you're coming from, but I don't know...A question comes to mind that I'm now curious about (it might not be too relevant but I just wonder what your thoughts are on it).

When Peter gives his explanation to the people about Christ he quotes Psalm 16:10. Why didn't Christ's body see corruption/decay? Why do you think God kept his body preserved if Physical death is just a byproduct that starts to die the moment sin entered the world?

Psalm 16:10

because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay.

It seems physical death is more personally connected to sin than just being a byproduct, you know? It seems that since Christ knew no sin, because he still chose to die for us, his body saw no decay.

It is only double jeopardy if physical death was the ultimate penalty for sin, it was not, it was just one of the byproducts, Man was never intended to die, he was created a eternal being. just in a physical body.

I agree that man was never intended to die, but that's what makes me believe Physical death is the ultimate penalty.

People are still physically alive to choose Christ and be saved (even if we call them spiritually dead)...but once one is physically dead one's time has run out (whether one believes is immediate judgment or judgment at the end of the age after a resurrection). Christ calls satan a murderer from the beginning, Revelation speaks of death being the last enemy. John 3:16 speaks of not perishing. Do you believe these are all talking about spiritual death?

according to scripture two OT men never died physically God took them to heaven, so how was their sin penalty paid if physical death is the penalty?

That is the puzzle. And I can see it not making sense if spiritual death is the ultimate consequence. But again we all have a chance to be made alive from our "spiritual" death as long as we have time remaining in our "physical" lives, but when we're physically dead, that's it; no more time to choose. So I guess I'm just asking the same question as above:

So when scripture says, "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) or "the person who sins shall die" (Jer 31:30; Ezek 18:20) you believe it's saying "the wages of sin is *spiritual* death"?

Thanks Eternally-Gratefull

 

[DiscipleDave]

Anyhow, my advice to you would be this:

Drop this whole "I'm God's mouthpiece and you'd better all listen to me because I've come to tell you the truth" spiel. Personally, I don't suffer proud heretics lightly and, more importantly, neither does God.

Tell me something, and please answer. What if what i am telling you is exactly what God did tell me? I'm if i take your advise and lie and say that God did not tell me these things, would that not make me a heretic?
If i am lying, i will burn in Hell for all eternity. Rev 21:8 is clear that ALL LIARS will burn in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. So if i take your advise and say that what i am saying comes from me and my own thinking, and not from God, How am i not a LIAR, if indeed what i teach is what God told me?
Sorry, i should obey God and not take advice from such a one who is asking me to lie.
If you don't believe God speaks to people in these last days, or shows visions and dreams to people today, or sends Angels to people today, what is that to me? i have told you the Truth, and you do not believe it. Those who hear me, hear Him who told me these things. If you do not hear me, you do not hear Him who told me. That is between you and Him is it not?
How are you to try the spirits? If i have said anything contrary to Scriptures then reveal it. If i have not said anything contrary to Scriptures would it not behoove you to search the Scriptures yourself and see if what i say is True or not? Have you taken what i have said to the Lord, to lead you to the Truth? Have you either Prayed about it, or researched it through Scriptures? or is the Truth, because what i teach is contrary to what you think is the Truth, therefore i MUST be false? Or maybe because God has not spoken to you in conversation, therefore He must not speak to anyone else, is that it? Or maybe you believe satans lies that he has been teaching for many years now, that God does not speak to people today like He did back then? i guess that belief would make void the verse which teaches He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Is it my fault you do not believe God speaks to people today? Tell me, if God did speak to people today, what would those people say and teach? Have i committed any kind of sin whatsoever? Have i said anything contrary to Scriptures? Does not the article on the website below, teach over and over again to LOVE ONE ANOTHER? i have told you the Truth, that is all i can do, your blood is not on my hands, i have done what He told me to do. one day in conversation with Him, i asked Him "If you already know they will not listen to me, or hear me, why even tell them?" Do you know what He told me "So they will have not excuses when they stand before Me on Judgement Day, pleading they did not know" A verse that comes to my mind is "They will have no cloak for their sins.
You do not agree with me, Why do you not agree? Scriptures? No not Scriptures, for nothing in Scriptures contradicts what i each, you disagree because it don't fit into what YOU think is the Truth. Therefore not my fault, not the God's fault that you do not believe it.
i love you all, and hope and pray that all of you, will not believe me and what i teach, but my hope and prayer is that you believe what He has told me. What i think is irrelevant, what He told me is the Truth. And i know this generation will not receive the Truth, do you know why i know that, because He told it wouldn't. So then am i surprised when they don't? NO, sad, yes, surprised? no.
Want to know many things God told me, then click on my website below and see for yourself.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

This is absolutely True, brother. Well said.



Sorry, i can care less what the Hebrew says, i am not Hebrew. If you read my article on Hebrew and Greek, you would know how i feel the Hebrew and Greek opens up many different interpretations, and it most certainly has caused divisions among the brothers and sisters. i have studied Hebrew and Greek, and i will tell you the Truth and do not lie, those studies had hindered me greatly from coming to the Truth. God revealed to me, that a person does not have to become learned (study Hebrew and Greek) in order to come to the knowledge of the Truth, the Truth is given to those who the Holy Spirit of Truth will reveal it. No matter how hard or how long you study Hebrew and Greek, you will not come to the knowledge of the Truth in God. That knowledge is revealed through and by the Holy Ghost, NOT your own studies. i can care less what the Hebrew says, i only care about what the Word of God says, the same Word that God made sure was interpreted the way He wanted it interpreted to all the english speaking people in the World. i will tell you the Truth if God wanted a person to study the Hebrew and Greek, He would have instructed us to study the original languages in which His Word was written. Do the Apostles instruct this? No. Did Jesus Christ instruct this? NO. Do prophets of today instruct to do this? NO, they do not.



Seriously this made me laugh, not at you, only because of what you said. Tell me How is making a logically deduced conclusion based upon facts and words, NOT your assumption? Is it not what YOU think is True based on all those evidences, they are still your assumption, if it can't be proved by the same evidences you present.



Study what? The Word of God and what it teaches, or are you saying to study the Hebrew and Greek? Don't care what the Hebrew and Greek say and teaches, i care what the Word of God says and teaches. Tell me.

I Tim 6:4 ... . .. . but doting about questions and strifes of words .... .. . By one person saying this word means that, and another says well in Greek it means that, and yet another says well in English it means this. How is that not doting about words and not causing strife?

ASCENDED = to Go up, rise through the air (What one does)

TAKEN = no choice, but other removes them from where they were. (what someone else does to you)

A person does not need to take every word in the Bible to the Hebrew and Greek in order to understand it. What one really needs to do, is to pray to God that the Holy Spirit of Truth starts teaching what the Truth actually is.
When i studied the Hebrew and Greek, i was trying to discover the Truth through my own means.
When the Truth was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit of Truth, Hebrew and Greek became dung. it is NOT the way to Truth. And of a Truth, i wasted hundreds of hours studying them.

God made His Word so easy to understand, that children can come to the Truth. Leave it to this last days generation to think they must become learned, (study Hebrew and Greek) in order to come to the Truth. i know, i use to be on of those who thought you had to become learned, i was dead wrong.

^i^

No offence Dave,

Seriously none taken.

No offence Dave,but the bible was originally written in Hebrew and Greek and to say that some English translation overrides or negates what was originally written can lead to faulty conclusions......To properly understand the scriptures and make LOGICALLY DEDUCED conclusions is as simple as math.....

The original Hebrew and Greek writings were written to whom? Was it not to those who fluently wrote and spake that language? Yes it was.

no offense to you but i never said "to say that some English translation overrides or negates what was originally written " i have never said this. The Original Hebrew and Greek is for the Hebrews and Greek. i never said or suggested that any translation overrides or negates the Hebrew or Greek. What i do say and teach, is that it is not necessary for one to study the Hebrew and Greek in order to come to the Truth, that a person can receive the Truth from an English version. It is when English speaking people think and teach that you MUST go to the Hebrew and Greek in order to come to the knowledge of the Truth is false, and is not the Truth. The Holy Spirit of Truth reveals to whomever the Spirit wants to reveal it, REGARDLESS if they study Hebrew or Greek or not at all. The problem is not Hebrew and Greek. The problem is people seeking elsewhere for the Truth when the Truth is found within, not some other way, such as studying the original languages that the Word of God was in two thousand years ago. The Truth come from within a person, not from without.

So, where did Elijah GO.....

Is he floating around SPACE? IS he flying like a BIRD in the air.....?

lol, made me laugh no of course not. Do you remember in the Bible when Jesus was transfigured? Elijah did not experience a physical death (yet he will experience a physical death when he is killed in the future.) He was taken up into the atmosphere in the sight of men, he was transfigured, that is to say that body that He had, how do you say, materialized into another body (transfigured) The point is he did not experience a physical death, and people falsely assume Elijah went up into Heaven where the Father dwells. IF this is True, then Scriptures are false, which teach NO MAN has ascended up to Heaven. So then what this generation does best, this generation did. They believe Elijah went to Heaven, the 3rd Heaven, therefore the verse that said no man has ascended into Heaven, has to be changed, interpreted to mean something other that what it says, a means to change that verse to fit the false belief, would be to take that verse to the original language of Hebrew and Greek, This they do. and since the word used as ascend can mean several different things, depending on context plural, singular, where else it was used, people choose the best meaning to fit what they believe to be the Truth. You see if Elijah did go Heaven, then the verse which say no man has gone up to Heaven is wrong, therefore we have to change it so that it is not wrong. The problem is they are trying to change a verse that needs not changed, they are in error concerning where elijah went.
Elijah did rise into Heaven, the first Heaven, our atmosphere. He then slept. But then was used by God again and was inside John the Baptist. (Matt 17:10-13) When the body of John the Baptist cease to be, the Spirit of Elijah went back to sleep. And when the two witness show up soon, God will wake him up again.

No where did I say that EVERY word needs to be taken to the Greek and or Hebrew, and no offence but you prove my point by your refusal to acknowledge what the word actually states....and it states clearly that Elijah was taken up to HEAVEN in a whirl wind....

If i say a leaf was taken up into Heaven in a whirl wind, Am i then referring to the leaf going into Heaven with the Father?
If i say a barn was taken up into Heaven in a whirl wind, Am i then referring to the barn going into Heaven with the Father?
If i say a dog was taken up into Heaven in a whirl wind, Am i then referring to the dog going into Heaven with the Father?
If i say a man was taken up into Heaven in a whirl wind, Am i then referring to the man going into Heaven with the Father?
Just because it say Elijah was taken up to Heaven in a whirl wind, does NOT mean the Kingdom of Heaven. That is what i have been trying to say. When you read that verse, the part that says Heaven, you are assuming it to mean the 3rd Heaven, the Kingdom of Heaven. So then tell me WHY you think that Heaven is the Kingdom of Heaven and not Heaven which is our atmosphere? i will tell you the Truth, if Elijah did go into the Kingdom of Heaven, then Scriptures does indeed lie. Scriptures teach no man has gone up to Heaven, but Jesus only. Now if Elijah did too, then He lied. Or maybe He did not lie at all, maybe NO MAN has went up to Heaven but Jesus is the Truth, and Elijah went to Heaven is True also, the first Heaven, NOT the Third Heaven. That would be the Truth, and is the Truth. But instead of believing the Truth, lets take verses that contradict what we think is the Truth and try to change them to mean something other than what they plainly teach, and let us use the original languages to accomplish this goal. Do you know what is sad, most who do this, don't even realize that they are doing it, i know, i was one of them who did it.

So, it really does not matter to me if you have read the bible 80 times or 150 times as all through history (of translations) men who have read the bible have come to faulty conclusions based upon the King's English......

Based upon the King's English? Are you saying ONLY the King's English. Even in the days of the torah, they did not translate correctly, if they would have, they would have known Jesus was who He said He was, but they did not know Him, because they interpreted incorrectly, and that was not the King's English they misinterpreted. Every translation, no matter which is subject to misinterpretations. Those who take the version that God gave the English speaking people to live by and learn from make it doubly easier, by going to other translations, to misinterpret the Word of God.
Here is the root of the problem. men are NOT suppose to interpret the Word of God, ever. False doctrines, hundreds of denomination, false teachings, false beliefs all came about because men took it upon themselves to interpret the Word of God. The Prophet Daniel said "Interpretations belong to God" but leave it to men, to try to interpret the Word of God, then try to teach others what they THINK is the Truth.
A person comes across a verse in the Word of God, they do not understand. This person prays about it, prays for understanding of it, waits patiently for that answer, fasts and prays, about it. Then one day like lightning the meaning of that verse in question come to light in their mind, Scriptures revealed the answer, the Spirit could have revealed it to them.
This generation, a person comes across a verse in the Word of God, they do not understand, so they go to other men to learn what it means, if they are not satisfied with what other men say and teach they will go to the original Hebrew and Greek to see the answers there, they take each word in that verse, and look it up in the Hebrew and Greek and choose one that best leans toward what they think is True. If the Hebrew version fits better than the Greek version, they will use the Hebrew version for that word, all the while using the Greek version for another word in the same verse, making it mean something that they will agree with, call the Truth, and then teach others that Truth that they have come up with by their own thinking and their own understanding. Men interpret the Word of God, they are wrong. God and only God interprets the Word of God. This is why we as a Christian people are so divided, because men and their own interpretations of what they think the Truth is. Even though many times we are instructed to be of one mind, to think the same things.

Not going to argue with you bro.....the English is clear....HEAVEN and the HEBREW is clear THE HEAVEN that is the THRONE OF GOD......reject it if you so choose.........!

OK, but first let me take the word argue that you say above to the Hebrew and or Greek which ever one i choose, to see if i agree with what you plainly are saying in the above sentence. I also want to take the word reject to the Latin Vulgate, because the English definition for that word, i don't agree with, therefore i have to study and see what reject actually means, to see what you are actually trying to tell me, brother, this may take some time.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

All flesh shall die, it is from the Earth and will return to dust, click on my website below, click the article Where After Death? The Two who were taken will still die in the flesh. The two witness that are yet to come, will have their Spirits within them. Even as John the Baptist had the the Spirit of Elijah in him.
When Christ comes for the Church, the day He shows up all those who died prior to that point and were SAVED, wake from their sleep and rise from their resting place and go to be with Jesus in the Air. Also at this time those who are alive and are judged to be True Christians, the Spirit that is in them immediately comes out of the body, and that flesh is dead. The person dies and the Spirit becomes as the Angels are. When Christ shows up the alive Christians their flesh will immediately die. For flesh and blood will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. but the Spirit that is in you, and is you, will come out of that flesh, and receive from Jesus their NEW Body, that of like the Angels of God and Jesus. Glorified bodies, NOT flesh from the Earth, but flesh from the Kingdom of Heaven.

Thanks for your explanation DiscipleDave, but I'm having a bit of a problem with the section I highlighted...

Please just Dave will be fine.

I *completely* agree that flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of Heaven as that's scripture...but I don't know; to say their flesh will immediately "die" seems to contradict 1 Corinthians 15:51

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, [/quote]

Those who sleep are they that have died and are awaiting the Return of Jesus to get them, they are the first to rise when He shows up to gather up the Church. When He does arrive the dead rise first, then those who are alive (who have not slept, not sleeping, not dead) will change into their Glorified Bodies. i was not made aware if that flesh body vanishes or merely collapses to the Ground once the Spirit leaves that flesh body. i will try to remember to ask Him in our next conversation, but don't hold your breath, i have not heard from Him since 1994.

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all die, but we will all be changed from the bodies we have now.

In this passage, sleep was a metaphor for death or "perishing", and the fact that there's a contrast between being "sleep" (i.e. dead) and being "changed" says to me that they're not the same. So this says to be some will not die (as we all understand death/sleep to mean "this body expiring")...instead, some will be transformed instantly from this corrupt body to incorruptible. In other words, some will not see the grave at all...and it's these "mysterious" few who I'm VERY curious about right now.

All that you just said is True. Those who do not sleep, are those True Christians that are alive at the time of Jesus Christ's Return, and are taken up to be with Him. They are the ones who will not sleep (flesh dies)
^i^

 

[Yahshua]

Joshua, i just stopped by to tell you...i sorrow with you.

i'm sorry you're suffering loss...and i know our Faithful Father
will take very good care of you, in His merciful and gentle Way. ♥

love,
ellie

Thank you for your kind words Ellie

[SUP]1 Cor. 15:21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[SUP]24[/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Your friend in Christ
pug32

Thank you Pug32.

Then from this passage it seems those in Christ who are alive and remain (to be transformed at His coming) are alive just by coincidence...or better said, it's simply their lot to be alive. By God's will and timing.

So now that just leaves mystery of the appointed physical death of the body (Heb 9:27) that these few must experience.

So their death is accepted "by faith" first (in dying with the Messiah in spirit) and so Christ changes their fleshy corruption at his coming...this has to be the case right, otherwise them avoiding death would go against Hebrew 9:27?

This question isn't really directed at your Pub32, nor anyone. It's just where I'm led next given everything all you guys have shared so far. Thanks again.

 

[DiscipleDave]

He hath prepared for them a city, and even now is still preparing a city for them.

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to preparea place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So then Scriptures plainly teach, that at the time of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago the place that would be prepared, was not yet completed, Jesus Himself said He was going to prepare a place for us, i know that place is the New City Jerusalem. You say He is NOT preparing the New City Jerusalem, which is contrary to the Word of God. Tell me then, When Jesus said He is going to prepare a place for us, what place you think He was talking about? Can't be the Kingdom of Heaven, that has existed before the Earth was even created. So what was it that Jesus was going to go into Heaven to prepare for us. What Holy City did those of old desire to see and enter into?

^i^

There's neither a direct mention of or even a slight allusion to "the New City Jerusalem" in what you just cited from John's gospel. Contrary to what you're claiming, CONTEXTUALLY, Jesus was speaking of "my Father's house" and I can easily show you, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament, that "my Father's house" is A TEMPLE and NOT 'the New City Jerusalem" as you allege. Furthermore, the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "mansions" would much better be translated as "rooms" or "dwellings". IOW, when Christ returns as the "son of David", He will sit within a rebuilt TEMPLE in Jerusalem from which He will rule over the world. Having also promised the very people whom He was actually speaking to in what you cited from John's gospel "that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19:28), Jesus was here only telling them where their place of residency would be at this precise time. IOW, even as Christ Himself will be reigning from His "Father's house"...

First off i would like to say, i no longer believe you to be young, your last post shows reflects wisdom and understanding, which does not usually show up in the young.

You say

There's neither a direct mention of or even a slight allusion to "the New City Jerusalem" in what you just cited from John's gospel. Contrary to what you're claiming, CONTEXTUALLY, Jesus was speaking of "my Father's house" and I can easily show you, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament, that "my Father's house" is A TEMPLE and NOT 'the New City Jerusalem" as you allege.

i say this, because it is the Truth, and the Word of God teaches this as well. The Temple is the New City Jerusalem.

Revelation Chapter 21 describes the New City Jerusalem, did you notice verse 22

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

So the Father and Jesus in the New City Jerusalem IS the TEMPLE. Rev 22:3 teaches the Throne of God will be in the New City Jerusalem. The Fathers house is where the Father dwells. If than the Father is in the New City Jerusalem, and the Throne of God is also in the New City Jerusalem. How is the Fathers House, not the New City Jerusalem? As the Word says it is.

You say

Furthermore, the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "mansions" would much better be translated as "rooms" or "dwellings".

Do you hear what you are saying? You are saying that the Word of God given to the English speaking people of the world, needs to be better translated, that somehow it is NOT translated correctly. What credential do you have to determine if a part of the WORD OF GOD, needs to be better translated? Who authorized you to decide which verse needs to be better translated? Are you authorized to tell us which verse not to believe, because there is a better translation of that verse? So what? we can pick and choose which verses we our own selves deem need to be better interpreted? Reread what you just said above and tell me that it doesn't sound like you are saying the English version is wrong, and the Greek version is BETTER. Did this knowledge come to you through a vision of God? Did an Angel tell you this? Did you have a Dream from God that revealed this information to you? or is this from your own thinking, something that you have deduced logically based on your intelligence?

You say

when Christ returns as the "son of David", He will sit within a rebuilt TEMPLE in Jerusalem from which He will rule over the world.

And what you say is True, what you do not understand is that rebuilt Temple is the New City Jerusalem. Know you not that it is prophesied that Jerusalem will be destroyed, and only a remnant of the Jews will remain afterwards. The Jerusalem we have presently will not exist, it will be destroyed.

You say

"that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

This they will do from the New City Jerusalem. Rev 22:3 is clear their Thrones is in the New City Jerusalem

You say

Jesus was here only telling them where their place of residency would be at this precise time. IOW, even as Christ Himself will be reigning from His "Father's house"..

And His Fathers House is the New City Jerusalem, where the Saints will live also. Have you read the description of the New City Jerusalem. What each floor will be like, and how huge each floor will be. Now you can believe that in the Father House there is only rooms, as the Greek tells, but i know the Truth, and we have mansions in His house, EXACTLY like the Word of God says and teaches, NO Hebrew or Greek needed.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

He hath prepared for them a city, and even now is still preparing a city for them.

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to preparea place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So then Scriptures plainly teach, that at the time of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago the place that would be prepared, was not yet completed, Jesus Himself said He was going to prepare a place for us, i know that place is the New City Jerusalem. You say He is NOT preparing the New City Jerusalem, which is contrary to the Word of God. Tell me then, When Jesus said He is going to prepare a place for us, what place you think He was talking about? Can't be the Kingdom of Heaven, that has existed before the Earth was even created. So what was it that Jesus was going to go into Heaven to prepare for us. What Holy City did those of old desire to see and enter into?

^i^

There's neither a direct mention of or even a slight allusion to "the New City Jerusalem" in what you just cited from John's gospel. Contrary to what you're claiming, CONTEXTUALLY, Jesus was speaking of "my Father's house" and I can easily show you, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament, that "my Father's house" is A TEMPLE and NOT 'the New City Jerusalem" as you allege. Furthermore, the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "mansions" would much better be translated as "rooms" or "dwellings". IOW, when Christ returns as the "son of David", He will sit within a rebuilt TEMPLE in Jerusalem from which He will rule over the world. Having also promised the very people whom He was actually speaking to in what you cited from John's gospel "that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19:28), Jesus was here only telling them where their place of residency would be at this precise time. IOW, even as Christ Himself will be reigning from His "Father's house"...

First off i would like to say, i no longer believe you to be young, your last post shows reflects wisdom and understanding, which does not usually show up in the young.

You say

There's neither a direct mention of or even a slight allusion to "the New City Jerusalem" in what you just cited from John's gospel. Contrary to what you're claiming, CONTEXTUALLY, Jesus was speaking of "my Father's house" and I can easily show you, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament, that "my Father's house" is A TEMPLE and NOT 'the New City Jerusalem" as you allege.

i say this, because it is the Truth, and the Word of God teaches this as well. The Temple is the New City Jerusalem.

Revelation Chapter 21 describes the New City Jerusalem, did you notice verse 22

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

So the Father and Jesus in the New City Jerusalem IS the TEMPLE. Rev 22:3 teaches the Throne of God will be in the New City Jerusalem. The Fathers house is where the Father dwells. If than the Father is in the New City Jerusalem, and the Throne of God is also in the New City Jerusalem. How is the Fathers House, not the New City Jerusalem? As the Word says it is.

You say

Furthermore, the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "mansions" would much better be translated as "rooms" or "dwellings".

Do you hear what you are saying? You are saying that the Word of God given to the English speaking people of the world, needs to be better translated, that somehow it is NOT translated correctly. What credential do you have to determine if a part of the WORD OF GOD, needs to be better translated? Who authorized you to decide which verse needs to be better translated? Are you authorized to tell us which verse not to believe, because there is a better translation of that verse? So what? we can pick and choose which verses we our own selves deem need to be better interpreted? Reread what you just said above and tell me that it doesn't sound like you are saying the English version is wrong, and the Greek version is BETTER. Did this knowledge come to you through a vision of God? Did an Angel tell you this? Did you have a Dream from God that revealed this information to you? or is this from your own thinking, something that you have deduced logically based on your intelligence?

You say

when Christ returns as the "son of David", He will sit within a rebuilt TEMPLE in Jerusalem from which He will rule over the world.

And what you say is True, what you do not understand is that rebuilt Temple is the New City Jerusalem. Know you not that it is prophesied that Jerusalem will be destroyed, and only a remnant of the Jews will remain afterwards. The Jerusalem we have presently will not exist, it will be destroyed.

You say

"that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

This they will do from the New City Jerusalem. Rev 22:3 is clear their Thrones is in the New City Jerusalem

You say

Jesus was here only telling them where their place of residency would be at this precise time. IOW, even as Christ Himself will be reigning from His "Father's house"..

And His Fathers House is the New City Jerusalem, where the Saints will live also. Have you read the description of the New City Jerusalem. What each floor will be like, and how huge each floor will be. Now you can believe that in the Father House there is only rooms, as the Greek tells, but i know the Truth, and we have mansions in His house, EXACTLY like the Word of God says and teaches, NO Hebrew or Greek needed.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

i just noticed i have got off topic from this thread, sorry about that.

email me if any farther questions, that is, if you want to.

^i^

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I appreciate your reply EG...Thanks for helping, I'm "eternally grateful"



Yeah I guess it's physical death I'm focused on in this thread. I see where you're coming from, but I don't know...A question comes to mind that I'm now curious about (it might not be too relevant but I just wonder what your thoughts are on it).

When Peter gives his explanation to the people about Christ he quotes Psalm 16:10. Why didn't Christ's body see corruption/decay? Why do you think God kept his body preserved if Physical death is just a byproduct that starts to die the moment sin entered the world?

The same reason Lazarus was left dead for 4 days, it was common knowledge in those days that physical decay does not start to occur until the 4th day. Jesus was risen on the third

It seems physical death is more personally connected to sin than just being a byproduct, you know? It seems that since Christ knew no sin, because he still chose to die for us, his body saw no decay.

I see this, but again I must look at the fact scripture says even though we are physically alive, we are at the same time dead due to sin, and must be made alive in Christ.

that death can not be physical death. because they (we) are physically alive at the time.

I agree that man was never intended to die, but that's what makes me believe Physical death is the ultimate penalty.

physical death is a result of a body stained, Look at the ages of the patriarchs. they lived much longer lives because the disease and problems of intermarraige affecting the DNA and the earth were not as bad then as they are today.

if physical death was the ultimate penalty. the moment we commited our first sin, we would die immediately. As would have adam. the moment he ate of that tree, he would have fell dead (physically)

People are still physically alive to choose Christ and be saved (even if we call them spiritually dead)...but once one is physically dead one's time has run out (whether one believes is immediate judgment or judgment at the end of the age after a resurrection). Christ calls satan a murderer from the beginning, Revelation speaks of death being the last enemy. John 3:16 speaks of not perishing. Do you believe these are all talking about spiritual death?

Yes and no.

John 3: 16 is definitely spiritual. Because everyone who had eternal life still died physically.

Rev is physical. because it seperated us from our families and loved one, and causes great pain to those left alive.

That is the puzzle. And I can see it not making sense if spiritual death is the ultimate consequence. But again we all have a chance to be made alive from our "spiritual" death as long as we have time remaining in our "physical" lives, but when we're physically dead, that's it; no more time to choose. So I guess I'm just asking the same question as above:

So when scripture says, "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) or "the person who sins shall die" (Jer 31:30; Ezek 18:20) you believe it's saying "the wages of sin is *spiritual* death"?

Thanks Eternally-Gratefull

yes. the wage of sin is spiritual death, if it was physical death, then those saved from the wages of sin would never die physically, and still be alive.

As jesus said in John 6. they would never die, live forever, never hunger or thirst.

so if it is physical. these things would occur to all who are born of God physically.

but your right, if you have rejected Christ and die physically. then all hope is lost. it is too late.

 

[Yahshua]

Please just Dave will be fine.


Those who sleep are they that have died and are awaiting the Return of Jesus to get them, they are the first to rise when He shows up to gather up the Church. When He does arrive the dead rise first, then those who are alive (who have not slept, not sleeping, not dead) will change into their Glorified Bodies. i was not made aware if that flesh body vanishes or merely collapses to the Ground once the Spirit leaves that flesh body. i will try to remember to ask Him in our next conversation, but don't hold your breath, i have not heard from Him since 1994.

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all die, but we will all be changed from the bodies we have now.



All that you just said is True. Those who do not sleep, are those True Christians that are alive at the time of Jesus Christ's Return, and are taken up to be with Him. They are the ones who will not sleep (flesh dies)
^i^

lol thanks Dave. I'll send up several petitions ahead of you in the mean time just in case you forget. Thanks for sharing. I really appreciate your help.

 

[psalm6819]

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be : but we know that, when he shall appear , we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is . 1 John 3:2

I think this refers to our resurrected body,,,awesome and Jesus ate so we will too!!! no calories!!! the possibilities...endless, infinate variety, to be in His Presence

That could be us, those who are alive at the harpazo.


I'm sorry for your losses ,it's difficult to be separated from those who have gone before us-but I look at it this way-I will see that child again, I'll see my first husband again, I'll see my Dad and you will see your loved ones. We can trust that they are in the Hands of One Who loves them even more than we do.

God bless and comfort you,Yashua.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Yahshua:

Seeing how this is your thread and seeing how it originated out of genuine and serious questions which have arisen in your own heart and seeing how I'm both conscious and respectful of the same, would you prefer that I don't answer any more of the questions/comments which have been directed towards me here because they are pretty much off topic or would you prefer that I do answer them here instead?

Please let me know, either way.

At my end, although I certainly don't wish to be contentious, I do always strive to "contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" and I feel that the same is being greatly compromised here. Anyhow, again, please let me know whether or not I should proceed to answer questions/comments which have been directed towards me here or if I should seek to address them elsewhere instead.

Thanks.

 

[Yahshua]

The same reason Lazarus was left dead for 4 days, it was common knowledge in those days that physical decay does not start to occur until the 4th day. Jesus was risen on the third


I see this, but again I must look at the fact scripture says even though we are physically alive, we are at the same time dead due to sin, and must be made alive in Christ.

that death can not be physical death. because they (we) are physically alive at the time.



physical death is a result of a body stained, Look at the ages of the patriarchs. they lived much longer lives because the disease and problems of intermarraige affecting the DNA and the earth were not as bad then as they are today.

if physical death was the ultimate penalty. the moment we commited our first sin, we would die immediately. As would have adam. the moment he ate of that tree, he would have fell dead (physically)


Yes and no.

John 3: 16 is definitely spiritual. Because everyone who had eternal life still died physically.

Rev is physical. because it seperated us from our families and loved one, and causes great pain to those left alive.




yes. the wage of sin is spiritual death, if it was physical death, then those saved from the wages of sin would never die physically, and still be alive.

As jesus said in John 6. they would never die, live forever, never hunger or thirst.

so if it is physical. these things would occur to all who are born of God physically.

but your right, if you have rejected Christ and die physically. then all hope is lost. it is too late.

Thank you EG. I appreciate your point of view. Hmm. It gives me more to digest.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be : but we know that, when he shall appear , we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is . 1 John 3:2

I think this refers to our resurrected body,,,awesome and Jesus ate so we will too!!! no calories!!! the possibilities...endless, infinate variety, to be in His Presence

That could be us, those who are alive at the harpazo.


I'm sorry for your losses ,it's difficult to be separated from those who have gone before us-but I look at it this way-I will see that child again, I'll see my first husband again, I'll see my Dad and you will see your loved ones. We can trust that they are in the Hands of One Who loves them even more than we do.

God bless and comfort you,Yashua.

Thank you Psalm6819 for your words. I'll heartily share in the same hope as you.

lol no calories

 

[Butch5]

God gave us one model.

The penalty of sin is death.

This the only way redemption can be paid for remission of sin is death.

this is Gods model. as proven through the sacrificial system of the law

that is all we should worry about.

Well, all three involve death, and if you hold the one from the Reformation you're not holding the one God gave.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5 and thanks for your reply and for the paper to read. And actually I think you summarize your point nicely on your very first page. I'd like to focus on the consequence (death) for a second since that's the thrust of this thread...

Excerpt from Page 1: "Ransom View"


Notwithstanding the particular view, note that the consequence is still death; and Christ still died "in man's place". By this view:

1. Adam sinned/chose wrongly
2. Mankind was placed under Satan control
3. Enslaved mankind sins
4. The wage of sin is death
5. Mankind dies as a consequence
6. Christ died to set free (ransom) mankind
7. (So that) Mankind is no longer under satan's control

But if we follow this out would it also be true that...

7. Freed mankind is no longer slave to satan and sin
8. Thus Mankind (if it no longer sins) no longer dies; consequences avoided

In other words, by this view do you believe that in order to not die one would have to (of course) believe in Christ but also stop sinning (essentially my 2nd question from the OP)? Or do you believe that because of mankind's past sin (and it's effect in corrupting this flesh) *all* people still must return to the grave (which still leaves me to wonder about those mysterious few of 1 Corinthians 15:51 who never "sleep"/die)?

----

Forgive me guys. The only reason why I'm pressing everyone with questions is because of this "mysterious few", as they give me hope that some people avoid "expiration" altogether, as if these few achieve the 2nd life *before* their 1st life ends...but because the rest of scripture can't be broken, there has to be a way they avoid "sleep"...but still satisfy the death appointed for all people.

So thank you for helping me.

Hi Yash,

The early church held this view and they said that God put the curse on man and creation so that sin wouldn't be eternal. I think once Adam ate from the tree and learned evil all men would have to die. To answer your second question, yes, I believe it is necessary that the Christian turn from sin. I'm not saying one will be sinless but I believe there needs to be an effort to turn from sin.

Regarding your question about those in 1 Cor. 15. I think the answer to your question is in a general statement. I think it is a general statement that says, man must die. I believe there can be exceptions to the rule. Paul tells us that Enoch did not see death.

KJV Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5 KJV)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, all three involve death, and if you hold the one from the Reformation you're not holding the one God gave.

lol.. the one before the reformation does not even accept the death of Christ, they replace it with their sacraments. and make Christs death a side show.

there is only one penalty, spiritual death, Your dead to Christ, unless you have been made alive in christ.

that is fact according to the word.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

If i told you the Truth, how will you believe it? If you don't believe the trivial things that i have said, how will you believe the major things? If you will not believe the simple things that i have said, you WILL NOT believe the major things.

Dude, your avatar has gone to your head.

IOW, you're NOT Jesus and I'm not Nicodemus.

Anyhow, since Yahshua didn't answer my question, I won't disrupt his thread any longer.

I will, however, say this before leaving...

You (DD) need a lot of help. A LOT of help.

Good night.

 

[pug32]

if you have the time yahshua listen to Jeremy Camp song EMPTY ME on vevo.com

Your friend in Christ
pug32

 

[Yahshua]

Yahshua:

Seeing how this is your thread and seeing how it originated out of genuine and serious questions which have arisen in your own heart and seeing how I'm both conscious and respectful of the same, would you prefer that I don't answer any more of the questions/comments which have been directed towards me here because they are pretty much off topic or would you prefer that I do answer them here instead?

Please let me know, either way.

At my end, although I certainly don't wish to be contentious, I do always strive to "contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" and I feel that the same is being greatly compromised here. Anyhow, again, please let me know whether or not I should proceed to answer questions/comments which have been directed towards me here or if I should seek to address them elsewhere instead.

Thanks.

Dude, your avatar has gone to your head.

IOW, you're NOT Jesus and I'm not Nicodemus.

Anyhow, since Yahshua didn't answer my question, I won't disrupt his thread any longer.

I will, however, say this before leaving...

You (DD) need a lot of help. A LOT of help.

Good night.

Hi JesusistheChrist, Apologies. I actually didn't notice your post and then had to step out for the rest of the evening, but sure feel free to answer any questions posed to you. Thanks for asking! I figured we would quickly reach a point where we're just speculating more than anything. But I wanted to know what many of you think to help me to understand. I'll chime in if I have any questions (or reply to responses to me) but the thread is open.