All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[Elin]

Wow,we have recently learned that postribs face a brand new hurtle.
Why is there one coming with "brightness" and another without "brightness"???

Do post-tribs think there are two comings?

 

[Elin]

A metaphor is a comparison of one thing with another (two things) suggesting a likeness between them.

There are no metaphors in the NT usage of "cloud" in the following Scriptures because
no comparisons of two things are found in them:

on the mount of transfiguration (Mt 17:5),
which covered Israel in the Red Sea (1Co 10:1-2),
seen in the apocalyptic visions (Rev 1:7, 10:1, 11:12, 14:14, 15, 16),
in connection with the rapture (1Th 4:17),
Christ's second coming (Mt 24:30, 26:64), or
at the ascension (Ac 1:9).

That "cloud" in the above Scriptures is a metaphor for "crowds" has no Biblical basis
because no comparison of two things is made in any of them.
It is merely an assumption without either grammatical or Biblical warrant.

The "clouds" of 1Th 4:17 are actual masses of vapor in the sky, and not "crowds" of people,
as clouds are crowds of the actual metaphors in Heb 12:1 and 2Pe 2:17, where we do find
comparisons of one thing ("witnesses" or "false teachers")
to another thing ("cloud" or "mists driven by a storm")
suggesting a likeness between the two things, respectively.

metaphor [met-uh-fawr, -fer]
noun

• Examples
• Word Origin

1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in
“A mighty fortress is our God.”. Compare mixed metaphor, simile (def 1).

And the text actually states a comparison between two things: God is compared to fortress.
"Mighty is our God" is not a metaphor because no comparison of two things is made.

2. something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.

In this case "CLOUD" represents "ANGELS dressed in white"

You are aware, right, that you are merely asserting the representation, that
the text does not actually state a comparison of two things, and, therefore, the statement is not a metaphor.

However, perhaps a SIMILE is the better choice here.

simile [sim-uh-lee]
noun

• Examples
• Word Origin

1. a figure of speech in which two unlike things are explicitly compared, as in “she is like a rose.”. Compare metaphor.

2. an instance of such a figure of speech or a use of words exemplifying

I'll go with Simile. The term CLOUDS OF HEAVEN are a simile for ANGELS OF HEAVEN.

And, again, you do realize, right, that you are merely asserting a simile, that
the text does not actually state a comparison of two things, and therefore, is not a simile.

I always hated English, LOL.

And it seems a much better grasp of grammar and the use of metaphors, similes, analogies, etc.
is necessary for you to correctly understand what is being stated in some texts.

For, since no comparisons are stated, it is just as valid to say "cloud" means
masses of birds. . .or bugs. . .or whatever.

But since no comparisons are stated, no comparisons are made,
and "cloud" means cloud, a mass of vapor in the sky, atmosphere.

It's not complicated, my friend.

 

[biigH]

First of all, wow you are full of passion about the end times. That's a whole lot of verses and a lot of time put into it. Congratulations and good for you. It seems that your favorite verse is Matt 24. We would both agree that the people being spoken to in those verses were Jewish followers. They were not Americans and don't think like americans. That is why two questions are asked after Jesus tells them that the temple will be destroyed. One is like an American would ask, "When?!" But the other seems out of place to an American..."when is the end and what will be the sign of your coming?!" Why ask two questions.

Here's is why, to the Jewish mind if the temple is destroyed it is the end of the world. In that context it makes perfect sense. There is a good case against your very passionately held view. I would challenge you to let scripture translate scripture where possible. Hosea talks about the moon and stars falling from the sky and the sun will not give its light. There are other places in scripture using the same colorful language. In a Jewish mind (which this is written to) it is foolishness to think of this as a future rapture. To them this is common phraseology for an all encompassing judgement. Hosea used the same terminology to talk about an all encompassing judgement that as it turns out was a swarm of locusts...no rapture.

Another thing to consider is that the word for the physical return of Christ is "parousia" and it is not used until many verses later to answer the second question. I would conclude that this first part that you are quoting as an end times verse is referring in actuality to the coming prophecy of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD under Titus.

 

[AtonedFor]

First of all, wow you (the OP) are full of passion about the end times.

Well, not nearly as much as many others here!
However, we both agree that there will be NO rapture before any great tribulation period.

 

[DiscipleDave]

..., during His 7 year Tribulation period.

This is not in the Bible. The scriptures do not indicate the exact length of the Tribulation period.

Yes it does. If you want to see the thousands of websites that says it does, google "7 year Tribulation Period" Or just ignore and don't do anything and continue to believe as you do.

^i^

 

[popeye]

If the parable does not relate to the Great Tribulation with regard to 'post-trib', then neither does it relate to the Great Tribulation with regard to 'pre-trib' -- for, it has nothing [ directly ] to do with the tribulation at all.

If there is no tribulation in the parable, then:

~ there is no 'pre-trib' in the parable...
~ there is no 'mid-trib' in the parable...
~ there is no 'post-trib' in the parable...

"You can't have your cake and eat it too."

If there is no tribulation in the parable, then you cannot say that the parable "promotes" the 'pre-trib' view.

If you say that there is a 'pre-trib' concept present in the parable, then do not say that there is no tribulation in the parable.



The 'covenant' part of it has already occurred. The Bride awaits for the return of the Groom - one time - for the wedding.

The Groom does not take the Bride back to his father's house before the wedding. After the Groom returns, he does not leave again.

~ The 'betrothal' has already occurred.
~ Jesus has gone away to prepare for the Bride.
~ Jesus will come back for His Bride.

When Jesus returns - He is here to stay.

The wedding takes place at the Second Coming of Christ.

Now -- when is the Second Coming of Christ...?

If there is no tribulation in the parable, then:

~ there is no 'pre-trib' in the parable...
~ there is no 'mid-trib' in the parable...
~ there is no 'post-trib' in the parable...

"You can't have your cake and eat it too."

The parable is the gathering of the bride.
Your interpretation has everything but a gathering in it.
The lack of "tribulation" works against postrib,due to the fact they place the gathering DURING the GT

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by GaryA

The 'covenant' part of it has already occurred. The Bride awaits for the return of the Groom - one time - for the wedding.

The Groom does not take the Bride back to his father's house before the wedding. After the Groom returns, he does not leave again.

False. He gathers his bride and takes her to the house/room he prepared for her.
Postribs muddy this concept up horribly.

 

[ELECT]

False. He gathers his bride and takes her to the house/room he prepared for her.
Postribs muddy this concept up horribly.

Where was Israel when the ten plagues fell ?

 

[popeye]

First of all, wow you are full of passion about the end times. That's a whole lot of verses and a lot of time put into it. Congratulations and good for you. It seems that your favorite verse is Matt 24. We would both agree that the people being spoken to in those verses were Jewish followers. They were not Americans and don't think like americans. That is why two questions are asked after Jesus tells them that the temple will be destroyed. One is like an American would ask, "When?!" But the other seems out of place to an American..."when is the end and what will be the sign of your coming?!" Why ask two questions.

Here's is why, to the Jewish mind if the temple is destroyed it is the end of the world. In that context it makes perfect sense. There is a good case against your very passionately held view. I would challenge you to let scripture translate scripture where possible. Hosea talks about the moon and stars falling from the sky and the sun will not give its light. There are other places in scripture using the same colorful language. In a Jewish mind (which this is written to) it is foolishness to think of this as a future rapture. To them this is common phraseology for an all encompassing judgement. Hosea used the same terminology to talk about an all encompassing judgement that as it turns out was a swarm of locusts...no rapture.

Another thing to consider is that the word for the physical return of Christ is "parousia" and it is not used until many verses later to answer the second question. I would conclude that this first part that you are quoting as an end times verse is referring in actuality to the coming prophecy of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD under Titus.

Hosea used the same terminology to talk about an all encompassing judgement that as it turns out was a swarm of locusts...no rapture.

There are several raptures in the bible . 1 thes 4 is the gathering of the bride,or rapture of the church.

 

[ELECT]

There are several raptures in the bible . 1 thes 4 is the gathering of the bride,or rapture of the church.

will this happen after the Tribulation ?

 

[popeye]

Where was Israel when the ten plagues fell ?

in bondage and judgement.Then more judgement and wandering for 40 years to kill off the faithless.
Are you claiming this to be a type of the church?

 

[popeye]

will this happen after the Tribulation ?

not scriptural

 

[popeye]

Do post-tribs think there are two comings?

They have many erroneous views.

 

[ELECT]

in bondage and judgement.Then more judgement and wandering for 40 years to kill off the faithless.
Are you claiming this to be a type of the church?

God is going to make this same division for His people ON THE EARTH

[h=1]Exodus 8:22-24King James Version (KJV)[/h]22 And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the Lord in the midst of the earth.
23 And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.
24 And the Lord did so; and there came a grievous swarm of flies into the house of Pharaoh, and into his servants' houses, and into all the land of Egypt: the land was corrupted by reason of the swarm of flies.

 

[ELECT]

not scriptural

Israel went through the tribulation in egypt on the earth
egypt = this present world
God will make a Goshen
We will be on the earth not heaven

 

[ELECT]

in bondage and judgement.Then more judgement and wandering for 40 years to kill off the faithless.
Are you claiming this to be a type of the church?

Exodus 9 King James Version (KJV)

9 Then the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
2 For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still,
3 Behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.
4 And the Lord shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.
5 And the Lord appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the Lord shall do this thing in the land.
6 And the Lord did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.
7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

God id going to make a division here on earth for His church so the church will go trough the tribulation
Jesus comes a second time not a 3rd

 

[ELECT]

not scriptural

seems like ye need the spinach of understanding God word

 

[GaryA]

Yes it does. If you want to see the thousands of websites that says it does, google "7 year Tribulation Period" Or just ignore and don't do anything and continue to believe as you do.

^i^

I don't care about what 1000 web sites might say nearly as much as I care about what the Bible actually says.

 

[GaryA]

The lack of "tribulation" works against postrib,due to the fact they place the gathering DURING the GT

Not me...

 

[GaryA]

False. He gathers his bride and takes her to the house/room he prepared for her.

And * they * stay * there.

This is nothing more than taking the bride to his/their home - where they are going to live together.

It is not talking about a 'honeymoon'.

The home that Jesus "takes His bride to" is [ on ] earth.