HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE NT]?
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Paul's defense against his accusers in this chpt ...
2Co 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
2Co 12:15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.
2Co 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. [ That is, as my enemies represent.]
2Co 12:17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?
..... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile; so say the false apostles of me; for these are not the words of the apostle in his own person; nor to be understood of any spiritual craft, or lawful cunning and prudent artifices used by him, to allure and draw the Corinthians into a good liking and opinion of the Gospel and of his ministry, and so caught them, and was the happy means of their conversion; but they are spoken in the person of the false apostles, charging him with a wicked and criminal craftiness, by making use of other persons in a sly underhanded way, to get this church's money, when he pretended to preach the Gospel freely; to which he answers in the next verse - vs 17. Here Paul asks whether he had defrauded them by means of anyone whom he had sent to them.
Note, 1. It is a debt we owe to good men to stand up in the defence of their reputation; and we are under special obligations to those we have received benefit by, especially spiritual benefit, to own them as instruments in God's hand of good to us, and to vindicate them when they are calumniated by others. 2. How much soever we are, or ought to be, esteemed by others, we ought always to think humbly of ourselves. See an example of this in this great apostle, who thought himself to be nothing, though in truth he was not behind the greatest apostles - so far was he from seeking praise from men, though he tells them their duty to vindicate his reputation - so far was he from applauding himself, when he was forced to insist upon his own necessary self-defence.
II. He gives a large account of his behaviour and kind intentions towards them, in which we may observe the character of a faithful minister of the gospel. 1. He was not willing to be burdensome to them, nor did he seek theirs, but them. He says (2Co_12:13) he had not been burdensome to them, for the time past, and tells them (2Co_12:14) he would not be burdensome to them for the time to come, when he should come to them. He spared their purses, and did not covet their money: I seek not yours but you. He sought not to enrich himself, but to save their souls: he did not desire to make a property of them to himself, but to gain them over to Christ, whose servant he was. Note, Those who aim at clothing themselves with the fleece of the flock, and take no care of the sheep, are hirelings, and not good shepherds. 2. He would gladly spend and be spent for them (2Co_12:15); that is, he was willing to take pains and to suffer loss for their good. He would spend his time, his parts, his strength, his interest, his all, to do them service; nay, so spend as to be spent, and be like a candle, which consumes itself to give light to others. 3. He did not abate in his love to them, notwithstanding their unkindness and ingratitude to him; and therefore was contented and glad to take pains with them, though the more abundantly he loved them the less he was loved, 2Co_12:15. This is applicable to other relations: if others be wanting in their duty to us it does not follow therefore that we may neglect our duty to them. 4. He was careful not only that he himself should not be burdensome, but that none he employed should. This seems to be the meaning of what we read, 2Co_12:16-18. If it should be objected by any that though he did not himself burden them, yet, being crafty, he caught them with guile, that is, he sent those among them who pillaged them, and afterwards he shared with them in the profit: “This was not so,” says the apostle; “I did not make a gain of you myself, nor by any of those whom I sent; nor did Titus, nor any others - We walked by the same spirit and in the same steps.” They all agreed in this matter to do them all the good they could, without being burdensome to them, to promote the gospel among them and make it as easy to them as possible.
2Co 7:2 Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man.
I have to stop you right there.
That is falsehood.
Matt 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away."
Saying His teaching are OT" is... I will just say 100% wrong.
John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Paul really has become people father...
1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countlessb guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."
Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."
That is falsehood.
Matt 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away."
Saying His teaching are OT" is... I will just say 100% wrong.
John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Paul really has become people father...
1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countlessb guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."
Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."
That all I needed to know Hizikya, it started to dawn on me when I read the title of your thread, but then the disregard of Pauls words and the mis quoting Jesus so to knock Pauls words down.
There are those who believe Paul is a false apostle and all conversations are not about incorporating the words of Paul in with Jesus words but causing them to contradict since what he says might not fit into their own understanding as Elin beautifully points out.
You will be the first on my ignore list here, I do believe this is a dangerous doctrine
There are those who believe Paul is a false apostle and all conversations are not about incorporating the words of Paul in with Jesus words but causing them to contradict since what he says might not fit into their own understanding as Elin beautifully points out.
You will be the first on my ignore list here, I do believe this is a dangerous doctrine
K
Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE
Lord Jesus 3 1/2 years of His earthly ministry was not for the OT saints, they were teachings of how all of us under the new covenant are to do and walk in !!!
If anybody tells you that what the Lord said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was not for you/us. Then I would suggest you remove yourself from that person and/or church, and find a true bible based church as His teachings were for all under the New Covenant.
Lord Jesus said in the great commission of Matthew 28 that we are to observe/obey all of His teachings !!!
Lord Jesus 3 1/2 years of His earthly ministry was not for the OT saints, they were teachings of how all of us under the new covenant are to do and walk in !!!
If anybody tells you that what the Lord said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was not for you/us. Then I would suggest you remove yourself from that person and/or church, and find a true bible based church as His teachings were for all under the New Covenant.
Lord Jesus said in the great commission of Matthew 28 that we are to observe/obey all of His teachings !!!
So what are you saying, disregard all of His teachings and instead of Christianity, we must adopt Paulianity?
If (and he did not, but if he did) Paul spoke anything that does not line up perfectly with Jesus Christ's teachings, then whose teachings should we throw out? Christ's?
That seems to be the way it is portrayed? Peter even warned us of the difficulty of some of Paul's letters...
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Peter emphasizes that we must grow in grace and KNOWLEDGE which necessitates much study and prayer.
What does Paul himself say?
1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Notice the clause there? As I also am of Christ? Means to follow Paul AS he follows Christ, if he deviates, don't follow him.
If (and he did not, but if he did) Paul spoke anything that does not line up perfectly with Jesus Christ's teachings, then whose teachings should we throw out? Christ's?
That seems to be the way it is portrayed? Peter even warned us of the difficulty of some of Paul's letters...
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Peter emphasizes that we must grow in grace and KNOWLEDGE which necessitates much study and prayer.
What does Paul himself say?
1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Notice the clause there? As I also am of Christ? Means to follow Paul AS he follows Christ, if he deviates, don't follow him.
My issue is mainly with his writing style, it is confusing especially if one is not grounded in the ENTIRE WORD. Paul could recite the fist 5 books by heart, he quoted the "OT" more times than I care to count, and he is the only one singled out IN SCRIPTURE as being "hard to understand"
But if I dont throw caution to the wind reject everything else in Scripture im wrong?.... THIS IS SO CRAZY TO ME.
But if I dont throw caution to the wind reject everything else in Scripture im wrong?.... THIS IS SO CRAZY TO ME.
Do the people that disagree with me believe this passage?
2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."