Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

[Jason0047]

Thank you, Jason. I wasn't trying to argue but just wanted to line up with what the scriptures said.

#1 - Romans 10:9,10 is not enough?
#2 - When a person is born again - They are born of the Spirit. John 3:6b - The Spirit gives birth to spirit. (water?)
#3 - My mother has been dead for years now and has not been able to participate in the family - but I am still her daughter and she is still my mom - nothing will change that fact. Wasn't talking about our walk - our participation in the family but our position in the family as a son/daughter.
#4&5 - Yes, if we walk after the Spirit; we will not walk after the flesh - again you are talking about our participation in the family NOT our position in the family as a son/daughter.
#6 - I would say that it is normal to struggle with sin - everyone who is born again still lives in the flesh and if the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit lusteth against the flesh -

I don't believe I have said that we are exempt from living a sinful lifestyle or that we should abide in unrepentant sin. I am saying that we are born of the Spirit we are God's child - NO MATTER WHAT - we are God's child that is our position - our walk/fellowship/participation in the family can change - in and out of fellowship - that is our walk!

Thank you for responding, Jason. I appreciate it.

On your first point with Balaam: Lining up with what the Scriptures say is my goal, as well. Hence, why I amended my view based on Scripture. I am willing to admit when I am wrong if I see Scripture say something different to what I believe.

#1. No, Romans 10:9-10 is not enough. Isolating a select few verses out of the Bible (While ignoring others) to make a Theology is false. For what exactly is a person being saved from? There sin obviously. So one has to have the right attitude towards their sin when they come to the Lord and when they continue to walk with Him. For if there is no sorrow or remorse over their sin and or if they just plan on sinning tomorrow or in a half hour later after they put into practice Romans 10:9-10, then it really does not mean anything. They would still be unsaved because they have not changed. For to be a new creature or to be changed means you have been born again. If you are still under the first birth, then you will still be like the old man.

#2. Born not of corruptible seed but by incorruptible seed which is the Word of God. This is in context to God's Word. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Ephesians 5:25-26 says that Christ sanctifies the church with the washing of the water of the Word. James says we are begat by the Word of truth. In the Parable of the Sower: The seed that Jesus described that entered a believer's heart is the Word of God which could produce much fruit. Yet, there were others who let themselves fall away after believing. They fell away because of the deceitfulness of riches and or persecution. Yes, we are also born of the Spirit, but this is only so as to re-establish a right relationship with God. When Adam and Eve were first created in the beginning, they did not need to be born again. God created them in a right fellowship with Him. Yet, they were still able to fall away whereby they and their descendants would need a Savior. Yes, we are also born of the Spirit. This is important because this is were the regeneration takes place whereby you will be a new creature that will not want to sin. If you have no desire to please God and you still are just wanting to live for sin and yourself, you haven't been regenerated or born again. We are saved by this regeneration and by His mercy (Titus 3:5). Why? Because we were sorry about our sin and desired Jesus as our Saviior to save us from our sins.

#3. Sonship did not save the richman in Luke 17:25. Abraham called the richman his son and yet the richman was in aa place called "Torments." As I said before, when a family member is dead, they are no longer a LIVING member of your family who can take part in your LIVING life or LIVING activities. They are dead and gone. They can only exist in your memories. They cannot be a part of your LIVING life anymore. You cannot have a two way conversation with them or hold them and or do the things you used to do with them. IIn other words, if certain businesses were looking for a certain family member that they thought was alive, and yet they were dead, you would in some cases notify them that she is no longer living. They are no longer a part of your life or amongst the land of the livng.

#4-5. There is no position in the family if you abide in unrepentant sin because 1 John 1:9 says IF you CONFESS your sins, he is faithful and just to forgive you of your sin. Stop. That's it. No need to go any further. But you would have me believe contrary to this one passage and believe something else. In other words, I want you to give me a complete commentary on 1 John 1:9. Explain every word with it and how we are cleansed of sin. For how can you be cleansed of sin thru confession if you are saying that we are already cleansed by some OSAS belief?

#6. It is not normal to struggle with sin for those who walk after the Spirit. Galatians 5:16 says if we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Period. No need to add to that verse. It's complete in and of itself. To say so otherwise is just double talk. You either believe that verse or you do not believe it. For Galatians continues and says those who have crucified the affections and lusts are His. Meaning, God is going to help every true believer to stop sinning. They will not living in unrepentant sin thinking they are saved. There is no passage that says that those who abide in sin are His.

You say that you do not believe in living unholy and you are not promoting a sin and still be saved lifestyle. That is great for you personally, but this is not really the fruits we see from the OSAS.

Let me give you a hypothetical example:

Let's say that breaking the speed limit of 65, could put you in prison for 1-2 weeks. What do you think will start to happen if this happened? Well, more people would follow the 65 mph speed limit to the letter more. They would make double sure not to go over it. In other words, there are consequences to breaking certain laws within our country. Some of these consequences are just and good and others are not. The point is that these laws and the consequences of breaking them provides order within our society. It keeps unrestricted chaos and evil at bay. This is justice. Laws. Many of them are there to protect us. But yet, you are saying that you will obey the 65mph rule regardless if there was any real consequence attached to it. But this is just not true. People do not do break certain laws because of the consequences involved. They know if they sleep around a bunch of peole (fornicate), they can bring disease in their life and shame upon their family and or friends. But yet, you are saying God does not care about the consequences of His people breaking His good ways. That they can be out of fellowship (i.e. they can sin against Him) and still be saved.

But this is not what common basic Morality teaches or the Bible teaches.

If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.
If you blaspheme (speak bad) against the Holy Spirit you will never be forgiven.
If you take away from God's Word and do not repent, then your part will be taken out of the book of life.
If you take the Mark of the Beast, you will drink the Wrath of God.

There is no such thing as OSAS.

It leads people to think they have a license to sin. Maybe not you personally. But there are many testimonies by others where this is the case (Big time).

 

[gb9]

o.k here is one for you: you and I see a person running back and forth in the street. you go up to the person and say " stop running in the street" I say to that person " you need to start walking on the sidewalk". we both just the same thing. but you might say to me " you just said it is o.k to run in the street". because I did not say your words back to you. just because someone does not repeat your words back to you, does not mean false teaching or disagree with Scripture.

 

[Jason0047]

o.k here is one for you: you and I see a person running back and forth in the street. you go up to the person and say " stop running in the street" I say to that person " you need to start walking on the sidewalk". we both just the same thing. but you might say to me " you just said it is o.k to run in the street". because I did not say your words back to you. just because someone does not repeat your words back to you, does not mean false teaching or disagree with Scripture.

There is no real frame of reference to your analogy to make any sense out of it. OSAS cannot be illustrated in real life. It is doctrine that leads many folks (not all) into a life of immorality. This is because they have the erroneous thought that nothing can unsave them --- Even if they later choose to sin the rest of their life and ignore God until their death. OSAS is the wide gate belief where more people are going to get into Heaven then we think. But the Scriptures say narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. In other words, the easy way or the wide gate path is the OSAS teaching that says you can sin and still be saved. In other words, it's easier to live for yourself and sin then it is to live for God. One has to deny themselves and take up their cross. Not so as to be saved, but because they are changed.

 

[Jason0047]

Here is the series of questions asked to address you and others.



I would like to add that when we see the word or phrase concerning 'fear the Lord' the word 'fear' means is to have a reverential trust in the words of the Lord. The Spirit of promise that dwells within the believer sheds abroad the love of God in our hearts (Rom 5:5). We are not motivated by threats or a fear of repercussions as Psychomom has objectively illustrated within the institution and framework of the family. That love (agape) is the motivation from God that we have in our hearts to serve God, the living God accompanied by a conscience that has been purged by the blood from dead works (Heb 9:14). Whom the Lord loves He chastens as a son (Heb 12:6) and if we be without chastisement then we are not sons but bastards (Heb 12:8).

While we were sinners (not sons) God commended his love toward us (Rom 5:8). We were loved by God before we became a son, how much more are we loved as a son, an adopted son, with all sin put away (Rom 8:15, Gal 4:5, Eph 1:5), having the Spirit of adoption and the promise that nothing shall be able to separate us from that love as a son (Rom 8:35-39).

The Scriptures say perfect love casts out fear. They also say that it the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil. The only reason you changed the plain meaning of the words "fear of the Lord" is because of the false teaching of OSAS.

Also, two things not listed at the end of Romans 8 that will not separate you from the love of Christ is yourself and or willful unrepentant sin. Those things are not on that list.

 

[Radius]

There is no real frame of reference to your analogy to make any sense out of it. OSAS cannot be illustrated in real life. It is doctrine that leads many folks (not all) into a life of immorality. This is because they have the erroneous thought that nothing can unsave them --- Even if they later choose to sin the rest of their life and ignore God until their death. OSAS is the wide gate belief where more people are going to get into Heaven then we think. But the Scriptures say narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. In other words, the easy way or the wide gate path is the OSAS teaching that says you can sin and still be saved. In other words, it's easier to live for yourself and sin then it is to live for God. One has to deny themselves and take up their cross. Not so as to be saved, but because they are changed.

To be fair Jason, compared to the rest of the world, even with your assertion of OSAS folks sinning all day and night (which is definitely NOT true...some will subconsciously take advantage of it, but as they go on through life they will be convicted and turn back to Christ, and if they don't they will be given over the devil for the destruction of their flesh, so that their soul may be saved--anyway, I digress), they ARE few in number.

Just think about how many people don't even claim a religion, and of maybe the half that do, they might actually truly be saved. And that's just in America.

We're talking maybe 2 out 10 people on the street probably that are truly 100% saved. That's quite evident in the decline of immorality we are seeing today.

Then you factor in the 1.6 billion muslims, they surely aren't saved, and the misguided Chinese, and the numbers fit perfectly in line with the narrow gate.

 

[Jason0047]

To be fair Jason, compared to the rest of the world, even with your assertion of OSAS folks sinning all day and night (which is definitely NOT true...some will subconsciously take advantage of it, but as they go on through life they will be convicted and turn back to Christ, and if they don't they will be given over the devil for the destruction of their flesh, so that their soul may be saved--anyway, I digress), they ARE few in number.

Just think about how many people don't even claim a religion, and of maybe the half that do, they might actually truly be saved. And that's just in America.

We're talking maybe 2 out 10 people on the street probably that are truly 100% saved. That's quite evident in the decline of immorality we are seeing today.

Then you factor in the 1.6 billion muslims, they surely aren't saved, and the misguided Chinese, and the numbers fit perfectly in line with the narrow gate.

No, if there is no real consequence in folks breaking a law, then they are gonna break that law. It's the same with OSAS. it teaches you can sin and be saved. Testimonials from those who felt they were a slave to their sin because of the false teaching of OSAS exist. I shouldn't even have to tell that they exist to let you know that sinning so as to be saved is wrong. But there is no difference between a sinning OSAS believer and an unbeliever. They both live for themselves and their sin. For they think they can serve two masters. Now, there are some OSAS proponents who believe holy lives. But yet they also teach others can sin and still be saved. So they will have their blood on their hands.

 

[Jason0047]

No, if there is no real consequence in folks breaking a law, then they are gonna break that law. It's the same with OSAS. it teaches you can sin and be saved. Testimonials from those who felt they were a slave to their sin because of the false teaching of OSAS exist. I shouldn't even have to tell that they exist to let you know that sinning so as to be saved is wrong. But there is no difference between a sinning OSAS believer and an unbeliever. They both live for themselves and their sin. For they think they can serve two masters. Now, there are some OSAS proponents who believe holy lives. But yet they also teach others can sin and still be saved. So they will have their blood on their hands.

Edit:

Meant to say, they believe they personally live out holy lives.

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, there is no way to tell the difference between an unbeliever and a sinning OSAS believer. They both act like the devil. However, it is worse for the believer because the Bible says to live holy and they say they believe in the Bible but yet their actions make them out to be a hypocrite. This is a major problem because Jesus said the Pharisees were hypocrites; And He did not treat them as if they were saved men.

 

[Radius]

In other words, there is no way to tell the difference between an unbeliever and a sinning OSAS believer. They both act like the devil. However, it is worse for the believer because the Bible says to live holy and they say they believe in the Bible but yet their actions make them out to be a hypocrite. This is a major problem because Jesus said the Pharisees were hypocrites; And He did not treat them as if they were saved men.

So if a great Christian man backslides and dies in the midst of it...he would what? go to hell? Is that truly what you believe?

I believe God expects us to act like mature people about his gift of Sacrifice and not take advantage of it. He expects us to live Holy lives out of love for Him, NOT to go out and sin because they are all covered anyway.

 

[gb9]

There is no real frame of reference to your analogy to make any sense out of it. OSAS cannot be illustrated in real life. It is doctrine that leads many folks (not all) into a life of immorality. This is because they have the erroneous thought that nothing can unsave them --- Even if they later choose to sin the rest of their life and ignore God until their death. OSAS is the wide gate belief where more people are going to get into Heaven then we think. But the Scriptures say narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. In other words, the easy way or the wide gate path is the OSAS teaching that says you can sin and still be saved. In other words, it's easier to live for yourself and sin then it is to live for God. One has to deny themselves and take up their cross. Not so as to be saved, but because they are changed.

you do not need a frame. why is it you and pardon me for this but folks in your denomination are so obsessed with who's in who's out who is really saved who is faking it. only God truly knows. as I told you last week, judge evil when it occurs. Paul did say avoid the appearance of evil, he did NOT say JUDGE the appearance of evil. grey area Jason. grey area.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

On your first point with Balaam: Lining up with what the Scriptures say is my goal, as well. Hence, why I amended my view based on Scripture. I am willing to admit when I am wrong if I see Scripture say something different to what I believe.

#1. No, Romans 10:9-10 is not enough. Isolating a select few verses out of the Bible (While ignoring others) to make a Theology is false. For what exactly is a person being saved from? There sin obviously. So one has to have the right attitude towards their sin when they come to the Lord and when they continue to walk with Him. For if there is no sorrow or remorse over their sin and or if they just plan on sinning tomorrow or in a half hour later after they put into practice Romans 10:9-10, then it really does not mean anything. They would still be unsaved because they have not changed. For to be a new creature or to be changed means you have been born again. If you are still under the first birth, then you will still be like the old man.

I believe in the only begotten Son of God = eternal life. I have confessed Jesus as Lord and believed that God raised him from the dead; thou shalt be saved (future; passive - subject acted upon by God, NOT ME - Indicative - FACTUAL STATEMENT) = I AM saved = born again of the Spirit. Those who come to confess Jesus as Lord - more than likely - have done so knowing their need of a Savior. God creates in me a new man which is after the image of him (God, Spirit) that (who) created him (new man). It is God working through us that creates change. I went to Biblegateway with the phrase "saved from sin" there were 0 entries. We are saved from wrath (the wrath of God) through him (Jesus Christ). [Rom. 5:9] The old man is the flesh - the old man does NOT automatically change when one is born again - If this was the case then God wouldn't remind us through scripture to put off the old man, to put on the new man, to renew our minds.

#2. Born not of corruptible seed but by incorruptible seed which is the Word of God. This is in context to God's Word. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Ephesians 5:25-26 says that Christ sanctifies the church with the washing of the water of the Word. James says we are begat by the Word of truth. In the Parable of the Sower: The seed that Jesus described that entered a believer's heart is the Word of God which could produce much fruit. Yet, there were others who let themselves fall away after believing. They fell away because of the deceitfulness of riches and or persecution. Yes, we are also born of the Spirit, but this is only so as to re-establish a right relationship with God. When Adam and Eve were first created in the beginning, they did not need to be born again. God created them in a right fellowship with Him. Yet, they were still able to fall away whereby they and their descendants would need a Savior. Yes, we are also born of the Spirit. This is important because this is were the regeneration takes place whereby you will be a new creature that will not want to sin. If you have no desire to please God and you still are just wanting to live for sin and yourself, you haven't been regenerated or born again. We are saved by this regeneration and by His mercy (Titus 3:5). Why? Because we were sorry about our sin and desired Jesus as our Saviior to save us from our sins.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God = faith in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God = confessing Jesus as Lord = being born again of the Spirit = not of corruptible seed [flesh] but of incorruptible seed [Spirit] by/through the word of God = faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God = which liveth and abideth for ever.
And round and round we go . . .The parable of the seed and the sower is teaching the different types of soil [hearts] and their reaction upon hearing the word of God. If the "seed" does not take "root" - there will be NO faith produced from hearing the word.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Con't . . . .

Originally Posted by Jason0047

#3. Sonship did not save the richman in Luke 17:25. Abraham called the richman his son and yet the richman was in aa place called "Torments." As I said before, when a family member is dead, they are no longer a LIVING member of your family who can take part in your LIVING life or LIVING activities. They are dead and gone. They can only exist in your memories. They cannot be a part of your LIVING life anymore. You cannot have a two way conversation with them or hold them and or do the things you used to do with them. IIn other words, if certain businesses were looking for a certain family member that they thought was alive, and yet they were dead, you would in some cases notify them that she is no longer living. They are no longer a part of your life or amongst the land of the livng.

Does the parable of the Richman and Lazurus say that either one was a "child of God"? I bet the Richman thought that because he received good things [did good] that he should have been the one comforted instead of the one tormented! I really don't see a relevance of this parable. Correct a person that is dead cannot have a LIVING relationship anymore BUT is that person still a mother, father, brother, sister of someone - the position within the family didn't change ONLY THE FELLOWSHIP within the family changed. When a child does something wrong - they are usually grounded and they are punished to their room or from doing other things within the family - that is fellowship NOT their position within the family. They are still a brother, sister, daughter, son within that family.

#4-5. There is no position in the family if you abide in unrepentant sin because 1 John 1:9 says IF you CONFESS your sins, he is faithful and just to forgive you of your sin. Stop. That's it. No need to go any further. But you would have me believe contrary to this one passage and believe something else. In other words, I want you to give me a complete commentary on 1 John 1:9. Explain every word with it and how we are cleansed of sin. For how can you be cleansed of sin thru confession if you are saying that we are already cleansed by some OSAS belief?

1 John 1 is all about fellowship - we walk in the light - we are in fellowship - we walk in darkness - we are out of fellowship - the "sin" is broken fellowship. If we are walking in darkness - out of fellowship - and want to be restored back into fellowship with the Father, the Son and with other members of the household of God; we admit our sin [Father I have sinned] - our walking in darkness - and we are restored back into fellowship because we are cleansed from all unrighteousness - broken fellowship. Still, not dealing with our position in the family as God's child but in our walk within the family. FELLOWSHIP - RELATIONSHIP - WALK

#6. It is not normal to struggle with sin for those who walk after the Spirit. Galatians 5:16 says if we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Period. No need to add to that verse. It's complete in and of itself. To say so otherwise is just double talk. You either believe that verse or you do not believe it. For Galatians continues and says those who have crucified the affections and lusts are His. Meaning, God is going to help every true believer to stop sinning. They will not living in unrepentant sin thinking they are saved. There is no passage that says that those who abide in sin are His.

It is normal to struggle/battle with our sinful nature. Our sinful nature has not changed - we now have two natures - the old man [flesh; sinful nature] and the new man [divine nature; Spirit] and these two natures are contrary one to the other - bound to be some kind of battle between these two natures. And, of course, IF we walk by the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh; but being of two natures sometimes we fail to walk by the Spirit - walk in darkness - we now have broken our fellowship with God, with his Son, and with members of the household. We ask forgiveness for walking in darkness and we are forgiven - during this walk in darkness we are still God's children. Remember - incorruptible seed. Now read 1 John 3:9 with the knowledge of two natures - one Spirit, one flesh - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; . . [where? not speaking of the flesh for we know that in the flesh dwelleth NO good thing and the flesh profits nothing BUT in the Spirit created in that person by God, i.e. incorruptible seed]; for His [God's] seed [incorruptible] remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [check out the Greek for that "seed"]

You say that you do not believe in living unholy and you are not promoting a sin and still be saved lifestyle. That is great for you personally, but this is not really the fruits we see from the OSAS.

Let me give you a hypothetical example:

Let's say that breaking the speed limit of 65, could put you in prison for 1-2 weeks. What do you think will start to happen if this happened? Well, more people would follow the 65 mph speed limit to the letter more. They would make double sure not to go over it. In other words, there are consequences to breaking certain laws within our country. Some of these consequences are just and good and others are not. The point is that these laws and the consequences of breaking them provides order within our society. It keeps unrestricted chaos and evil at bay. This is justice. Laws. Many of them are there to protect us. But yet, you are saying that you will obey the 65mph rule regardless if there was any real consequence attached to it. But this is just not true. People do not do break certain laws because of the consequences involved. They know if they sleep around a bunch of peole (fornicate), they can bring disease in their life and shame upon their family and or friends. But yet, you are saying God does not care about the consequences of His people breaking His good ways. That they can be out of fellowship (i.e. they can sin against Him) and still be saved.

But this is not what common basic Morality teaches or the Bible teaches.

If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.
If you blaspheme (speak bad) against the Holy Spirit you will never be forgiven.
If you take away from God's Word and do not repent, then your part will be taken out of the book of life.
If you take the Mark of the Beast, you will drink the Wrath of God.

There is no such thing as OSAS.

It leads people to think they have a license to sin. Maybe not you personally. But there are many testimonies by others where this is the case (Big time).

One thing - I never said that we would not pay the consequences for our ACTIONS - ACTIONS HAVE TO DO WITH OUR WALK not our positions as sons and daughters of God. Consequences are NOT losing our positions as sons and daughters - God would have to UN-born us. He have to take that incorruptible seed - that Spirit BACK - and that is what makes me his daughter and if he can take that "seed" back - then it is not incorruptible. And if sin can touch it - it is not incorruptible . . . . And if he takes back eternal life - it is not eternal - it is temporary as our life in the flesh.

We just have to agree to disagree.

 

[notuptome]

In other words, there is no way to tell the difference between an unbeliever and a sinning OSAS believer. They both act like the devil. However, it is worse for the believer because the Bible says to live holy and they say they believe in the Bible but yet their actions make them out to be a hypocrite. This is a major problem because Jesus said the Pharisees were hypocrites; And He did not treat them as if they were saved men.

You are most certainly revealing what is in your heart. If you did not fear loss of salvation you would go back to sin. Because of that and not the bible you reason that everybody else is a wicked as you fear becoming. That is really an awful way to live.

Scripture says that it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. The trademark of false religion is the desire for dominion over others. Christian virtue is endeavor to help those who are weaker in the faith not to browbeat and humiliate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

As I stated in post #578 - I believe that John has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness since what he said in verse 9 is IN CONTRAST to what he said in verse 8 - "If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" AND verse 10 - "If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." This verse has to be read in the context of the rest of the book of John – written to a group of believers whose ranks had been infiltrated by teachers of Gnosticism. Gnostics denied that their immoral actions were sinful. I don't believe it means that every time a believer sins, they must confess each individual sin as they commit them in order to receive forgiveness and cleansing of sin all over again. I don't believe that believers are lost all over again every single time they sin and are not forgiven and cleansed all over again until they confess each specific sin. If they forget one, they are toast!

I agree with John MacArthur's commentary on 1 John 1:9 - Continual confession of sins is an indication of genuine salvation. While the false teachers would not admit their sin, the genuine Christians admitted and forsook it (Psalm 32:3-5; Proverbs 28:13). The term "confess" means to say the same thing about sin as God does, to acknowledge His perspective about sin. Confession of sin characterizes genuine Christians, and God continually cleanses those who are confessing (vs. 7). Rather than focusing on confession for every single sin as necessary, John has especially in mind here a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

Notice that Matthew 10:32 - "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. IS IN CONTRAST TO - 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. This is ongoing confession and ongoing denial.

Already have in post #578 and again above.

Did John add a clause to 1 John 3:6,9 such as "some do and some don't" or did he make it clear that those who are born of God DO NOT practice sin?

Amen! The idea of "practice" sin is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. In Galatians 5:21, Paul uses the present tense which describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. Those who continue to practice such sins demonstrate that they are not born of God. Now this doesn’t mean that you can’t possibly ever stumble in one of those areas, but it means you do not continue to pursue such sins as a willful habitual lifestyle. There is a universe of difference between "practice" sin (no remorse, no repentance, no confession, just bring it on!) and temporarily struggling with a sin (and desiring to stop) who is confessing it and is continuing to pursue repentance and practicing righteousness.

Genuine Christians do confess their sin to Him. This is descriptive of genuine Christians (1 John 1:9). SAYING that "we have no sin" or "we have not sinned" is descriptive of false teachers (1 John 1:8,10).

As I pointed out in post #617 - In Acts 5, we saw a sin that led to physical death; in 1 Corinthians 5:5 we saw a sin that led to physical death and in 1 Corinthians 11:30 we saw a sin that led to physical death. UNBELIEF leads to spiritual death (John 3:18). I understand "born of God, but practices sin" as an oxymoron (1 John 3:9) and "born of God, but refuse to confess my sins" as an oxymoron as well (1 John 1:9). I don't believe that Judas was ever a genuine believer. Jesus described him as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him (John 6:64-71; 13;10,11). Jesus also referred to him as the son of perdition (John 17:12). That is why Judas left and betrayed Jesus. His heart was not right with God. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing. In John 8:31, Jesus said - "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Judas did not continue. Judas was not truly His disciple.

Well, I don't think John McArthur's Commentary agrees with your way of thinking.

There are three different versions of OSAS.

Classic OSAS teaches you can live like the devil and still be saved or that you can live holy and also serve yourself and sin. Clearly you are not of this viewpoint.

Mid Range OSAS teaches that a person who practices sin does not know God. But the believer who might abide in one or two unrepentant sins and dies in those sins is saved. If I understand you correctly, you are making it seem like you believe this version of OSAS. For it only took one sin for Adam and Eve to fall out of fellowship with God whereby they needed a Savior. What makes you think you can partake in one sin and refuse to repent of it and then die in that sin thinking you are saved? For if you just commit one sin such such as murder, hate, lust, idolatry, lying, and or drunkenness, etc. and refuse to repent of that sin (under the conviction of the Spirit), then what set of verses do you justify such a thing? For you have to realize that I believe the other verses in 1 John 1, too. I also believe John is warning the brethren about the false sessionists beliefs, too. So this is not a reason to interpret 1 John 1:9 beyond what it plainly says.

OSAS Lite teaches that if you practice sin and or refuse to repent of your sins, you never knew God to begin with.

I believe in the Biblical Conditional View of Salvation. So naturally I am against all forms of OSAS. But I believe only OSAS Lite are those who I can truly call my brothers or sisters. Why? Because they do not make excuses for sin.

Again, I will ask you. How are you cleansed (forgiven) of sin by confessing your sins as per 1 John 1:9? Does the verse say you can refuse to confess of one or two sins? If there is sin on your record and it needs to be cleansed, then how are you cleansed of it? Remember, he that walks in the Light as He is in the Light is cleansed of the blood of Jesus Christ. If one is abiding in just ONE sin, and or if they comitted ONE sin and did not think it was all that big of deal, then they are not walking in the Light. Now, can a person make a general acknowledgment of sin (Because they have many sins they need to be forgiven of)? Yes, they can. This is for the new convert or the believer who comes back to the faith from having backslidden into sin. They acknowledge their sin generally and turn from it. But if a believer commits adultery and then goes on about their life confessing other sins but refuses to confess of that sin (Especially under the conviction of the Spirit), then how are they saved? They are refusing to be truly sorrowful before God about all the evil in their life. So I am sorry. I am not buying your interpretation of 1 John 1:9.

Sin is a very serious matter. For sin put Jesus Christ on the cross.

 

[Jason0047]

You are most certainly revealing what is in your heart. If you did not fear loss of salvation you would go back to sin. Because of that and not the bible you reason that everybody else is a wicked as you fear becoming. That is really an awful way to live.

Scripture says that it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. The trademark of false religion is the desire for dominion over others. Christian virtue is endeavor to help those who are weaker in the faith not to browbeat and humiliate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Please take note that I am not saying all OSAS believers are alike. There are three different versions of OSAS. There are those who think they can live like the devil and be saved or that they can serve two masters by living holy and in serving themselves or sin. Then there is Mid Range OSAS which says that if you practice sin, you do not know God or have salvation. However, abiding in one or two unrepentant sins does not necessarily mean you are not saved. Then there is OSAS lite. This teaches that if you abide in unrepentant sin, then you never knew God to begin with. I believe in the Biblical Condtional View. That you have to repent and forsake your sins to be right with God. For 2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. 1 John 1:9 says IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Jesus' first words in his ministry were "Repent." Scripture teaches that if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. This is is a Condition. If you don't believe that verse is conditional, then please explain it for the rest of us.

 

[Jason0047]

Con't . . . .


Does the parable of the Richman and Lazurus say that either one was a "child of God"? I bet the Richman thought that because he received good things [did good] that he should have been the one comforted instead of the one tormented! I really don't see a relevance of this parable. Correct a person that is dead cannot have a LIVING relationship anymore BUT is that person still a mother, father, brother, sister of someone - the position within the family didn't change ONLY THE FELLOWSHIP within the family changed. When a child does something wrong - they are usually grounded and they are punished to their room or from doing other things within the family - that is fellowship NOT their position within the family. They are still a brother, sister, daughter, son within that family.

1 John 1 is all about fellowship - we walk in the light - we are in fellowship - we walk in darkness - we are out of fellowship - the "sin" is broken fellowship. If we are walking in darkness - out of fellowship - and want to be restored back into fellowship with the Father, the Son and with other members of the household of God; we admit our sin [Father I have sinned] - our walking in darkness - and we are restored back into fellowship because we are cleansed from all unrighteousness - broken fellowship. Still, not dealing with our position in the family as God's child but in our walk within the family. FELLOWSHIP - RELATIONSHIP - WALK

It is normal to struggle/battle with our sinful nature. Our sinful nature has not changed - we now have two natures - the old man [flesh; sinful nature] and the new man [divine nature; Spirit] and these two natures are contrary one to the other - bound to be some kind of battle between these two natures. And, of course, IF we walk by the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh; but being of two natures sometimes we fail to walk by the Spirit - walk in darkness - we now have broken our fellowship with God, with his Son, and with members of the household. We ask forgiveness for walking in darkness and we are forgiven - during this walk in darkness we are still God's children. Remember - incorruptible seed. Now read 1 John 3:9 with the knowledge of two natures - one Spirit, one flesh - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; . . [where? not speaking of the flesh for we know that in the flesh dwelleth NO good thing and the flesh profits nothing BUT in the Spirit created in that person by God, i.e. incorruptible seed]; for His [God's] seed [incorruptible] remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [check out the Greek for that "seed"]

One thing - I never said that we would not pay the consequences for our ACTIONS - ACTIONS HAVE TO DO WITH OUR WALK not our positions as sons and daughters of God. Consequences are NOT losing our positions as sons and daughters - God would have to UN-born us. He have to take that incorruptible seed - that Spirit BACK - and that is what makes me his daughter and if he can take that "seed" back - then it is not incorruptible. And if sin can touch it - it is not incorruptible . . . . And if he takes back eternal life - it is not eternal - it is temporary as our life in the flesh.

We just have to agree to disagree.

This really is not difficult. What are you cleansed of in 1 John 1:9? What are you forgive of in 1 John 1:9? How do you get forgiven or cleansed according to 1 John 1:9?

According to 1 John 1:7, how does the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us from all sin?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

You are most certainly revealing what is in your heart. If you did not fear loss of salvation you would go back to sin. Because of that and not the bible you reason that everybody else is a wicked as you fear becoming. That is really an awful way to live.

Scripture says that it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. The trademark of false religion is the desire for dominion over others. Christian virtue is endeavor to help those who are weaker in the faith not to browbeat and humiliate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This is precisely what I have always felt those who reject eternal security are -- essentially, still lost. They don't feel secure, therefore it is quite likely they are not secure, and they want everyone else to feel as insecure in Christ as they do. The reality: They aren't in Christ at all. They've had an emotional reaction or an intellectual assent to the Gospel, but it didn't bring about spirit-change.

The dead giveaway is that while they browbeat everyone else for believing eternal security, they never, ever question their own salvation. Only a true believer ever does question their salvation, and the fact they can question it means they have it, solid and secure. Those who espouse "lost salvation" need to get on their knees and pray to receive Christ right now.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

This really is not difficult. What are you cleansed of in 1 John 1:9? What are you forgive of in 1 John 1:9? How do you get forgiven or cleansed according to 1 John 1:9?

According to 1 John 1:7, how does the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us from all sin?

Answered in my post #656 . . . .

I will repeat - The context of 1 John 1 is all about fellowship - we walk in the light - we are in fellowship - we walk in darkness - we are out of fellowship - the "sin" is broken fellowship. If we are walking in darkness - out of fellowship - and want to be restored back into fellowship with the Father, the Son and with other members of the household of God; we admit that we have sinned [Father I have sinned (by walking in darkness)] - and we are restored back into fellowship because we are cleansed from all unrighteousness - of broken fellowship. Still, not dealing with our position in the family as God's child but in our walk within the family. FELLOWSHIP - RELATIONSHIP - WALK

 

[newbirth]

Con't . . . .


One thing - I never said that we would not pay the consequences for our ACTIONS - ACTIONS HAVE TO DO WITH OUR WALK not our positions as sons and daughters of God. Consequences are NOT losing our positions as sons and daughters - God would have to UN-born us. He have to take that incorruptible seed - that Spirit BACK - and that is what makes me his daughter and if he can take that "seed" back - then it is not incorruptible. And if sin can touch it - it is not incorruptible . . . . And if he takes back eternal life - it is not eternal - it is temporary as our life in the flesh.

We just have to agree to disagree.

you are trying to secure your salvation with words like un born ,,,take back and temporary life....but that does not alter the fact that eternal life is in Christ...and one must remain in obedience to Him ...
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Christ does not take back eternal life....if a believer fall away from Christ then they are not one with Christ and therefore cannot have eternal life...it is the same principle ..if a man hate his brother he is a murderer and no murderer have eternal life abiding in them...

 

[BradC]

Well, I don't think John McArthur's Commentary agrees with your way of thinking.

There are three different versions of OSAS.

Classic OSAS teaches you can live like the devil and still be saved or that you can live holy and also serve yourself and sin. Clearly you are not of this viewpoint.

Mid Range OSAS teaches that a person who practices sin does not know God. But the believer who might abide in one or two unrepentant sins and dies in those sins is saved. If I understand you correctly, you are making it seem like you believe this version of OSAS. For it only took one sin for Adam and Eve to fall out of fellowship with God whereby they needed a Savior. What makes you think you can partake in one sin and refuse to repent of it and then die in that sin thinking you are saved? For if you just commit one sin such such as murder, hate, lust, idolatry, lying, and or drunkenness, etc. and refuse to repent of that sin (under the conviction of the Spirit), then what set of verses do you justify such a thing? For you have to realize that I believe the other verses in 1 John 1, too. I also believe John is warning the brethren about the false sessionists beliefs, too. So this is not a reason to interpret 1 John 1:9 beyond what it plainly says.

OSAS Lite teaches that if you practice sin and or refuse to repent of your sins, you never knew God to begin with.

I believe in the Biblical Conditional View of Salvation. So naturally I am against all forms of OSAS. But I believe only OSAS Lite are those who I can truly call my brothers or sisters. Why? Because they do not make excuses for sin.

Again, I will ask you. How are you cleansed (forgiven) of sin by confessing your sins as per 1 John 1:9? Does the verse say you can refuse to confess of one or two sins? If there is sin on your record and it needs to be cleansed, then how are you cleansed of it? Remember, he that walks in the Light as He is in the Light is cleansed of the blood of Jesus Christ. If one is abiding in just ONE sin, and or if they comitted ONE sin and did not think it was all that big of deal, then they are not walking in the Light. Now, can a person make a general acknowledgment of sin (Because they have many sins they need to be forgiven of)? Yes, they can. This is for the new convert or the believer who comes back to the faith from having backslidden into sin. They acknowledge their sin generally and turn from it. But if a believer commits adultery and then goes on about their life confessing other sins but refuses to confess of that sin (Especially under the conviction of the Spirit), then how are they saved? They are refusing to be truly sorrowful before God about all the evil in their life. So I am sorry. I am not buying your interpretation of 1 John 1:9.

Sin is a very serious matter. For sin put Jesus Christ on the cross.

The practice of sin you refer to is without conviction or reproof. When the blood of Christ has purged the conscience from dead works that conscience is now able to be convicted by the word through the Holy Spirit. The conscience is where we have stored all the standards and spiritual norms for living our life. We must store up God's standards through the intake of the word and doctrine along with the grace of God to establish our hearts and purify our conscience. This is how we become sensitive to any form of sin. 'Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against God (Psalm 119:130).

We can only confess sin that we are convicted through the Spirit because of the word and doctrine we have in our heart. This is where a believer who knows to do good (kalos) and does it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17). Paul taught in many of his epistles to put off the old man and his deeds and to put on Christ. I would call that doing good and that which is right without having to go through all this confession that some demand on this site. Sin happens when we are drawn away with our own lust and enticed. When that lust is conceived it brings forth sin. Lust is anything we desire or have an appetite for outside the will of God. This is where the cross comes into play by having crucified that desire and lust of the flesh. Because of the cross we can put off that desire and do the good thing and put on the new man. This a learning process that God provides for little by little so that we learn how to receive grace and grow up in Christ.