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B
Have you forgotten (Romans 10:4)?
4 For Christ is the end (termination) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The law was given in righteousness and nothing the law demanded was unrighteous. You keep saying that Christ only did away with the curse of the law but this verse speaks clearly as to the end of the law for righteousness. If we are to keep the law is it not for righteousness, for we are not made righteous by keeping the deeds of the law. We are made righteous by faith through the cross of Christ. The law has nothing to do with the work of the cross that we are to put our trust. The law we serve is the law of Christ and the law of the Spirit of life. We are not made righteous nor are we justified by the law or any aspect of the law in deed or truth.
Gal 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead (no life, have died) to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Romans 8:2-4
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
When we were crucified with Christ we became dead to the law. You need to understand this and make the correlation to the NT law of Christ and the Spirit that we are now under through grace. It is not the OT law that we are to keep for righteousness but rather we keep the righteousness of the law that has been fulfilled in us through the cross and being crucified with him. This is how we have been made the righteousness of God in Christ.
4 For Christ is the end (termination) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The law was given in righteousness and nothing the law demanded was unrighteous. You keep saying that Christ only did away with the curse of the law but this verse speaks clearly as to the end of the law for righteousness. If we are to keep the law is it not for righteousness, for we are not made righteous by keeping the deeds of the law. We are made righteous by faith through the cross of Christ. The law has nothing to do with the work of the cross that we are to put our trust. The law we serve is the law of Christ and the law of the Spirit of life. We are not made righteous nor are we justified by the law or any aspect of the law in deed or truth.
Gal 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead (no life, have died) to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Romans 8:2-4
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
When we were crucified with Christ we became dead to the law. You need to understand this and make the correlation to the NT law of Christ and the Spirit that we are now under through grace. It is not the OT law that we are to keep for righteousness but rather we keep the righteousness of the law that has been fulfilled in us through the cross and being crucified with him. This is how we have been made the righteousness of God in Christ.
How does another human know who is doing what off what will? and saying people can't use their strength given them by Yah to do His will is beyond a foolish thought, the error is thinking as you asl did elude to, the error is people thinking they are "good enough" to enter, which we know without the undeserved mercy given to mankind we would all be ashes....Yet if one ignores what is written they are fulfilling the exact definition of iniquity. Unless they follow what is written without ever reading it. I personally read the Law/Instructions and Messiah's perfect explanation of them to get it in my mind so the Spirit may call upon them in times that I may love Yah and my fellow humans that I may walk in love.Not that I always do, because I do error, but none the less it is my will that I follow Him. and you said, "does not need a list of legal rules and guidelines" anything less than His guidelines would be or own standard of love would it not?
SO why is it when mercy (grace) and obedience are talked about as being one, many fight against this and or say that obedience is a opponent of mercy? (wording wording, the intent is there,, one can change the words but read these forums, the intent of mercy being an opponet of obedience is there) yet Scripture shows us they are a unity....
E
our standard of love is faulty at best, we are too selfish. Gods standard is perfect he does not need rules to show him how to love,
God gave us rules to show us how much we fail. not to show us how to love as paul said, we can not be righteous (good moral people) by the law. it was not its intended purpose.
as for can people use their own strength for doing good. if this was the case, what do we need God for? scripture says it is God who works in me for his good will. not me who works in myself to please him. nothing good comes from me.
if people understood the letter completely they would understand this.
thats why legalism is so damaging and so evil. people make their own guidelines of what is a good and moral person, and deny the fact God said there are no moral and rightious people no not one.
God gave us rules to show us how much we fail. not to show us how to love as paul said, we can not be righteous (good moral people) by the law. it was not its intended purpose.
as for can people use their own strength for doing good. if this was the case, what do we need God for? scripture says it is God who works in me for his good will. not me who works in myself to please him. nothing good comes from me.
if people understood the letter completely they would understand this.
thats why legalism is so damaging and so evil. people make their own guidelines of what is a good and moral person, and deny the fact God said there are no moral and rightious people no not one.
You know I agree....God said it is going to rain and flood the earth (it had not rained as of yet) Noah BELIEVED GOD (exercised faith) and built the ark.........Noah also preached it is going to rain and the earth will be flooded....if you want to survive build an ark.....I bet Noah's ark had an extra 100 pounds of fingernails on the outside HAH!
yes we are not made righteous by our own deeds, but only by His mercy.
telos is not "termination" it the "goal" Messiah walk is the perfect example of the intent of the Law..
Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."
1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith--the salvation of your souls."
If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away in 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9. Unless of course telos means the goal.
Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)
HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.
James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."
SO if telos is "termination" as you say then in James 5:11 it is the "termination" "of the Lord", no it is not, end/termination is a mistranslation/misunderstanding of what is written in the greek...
Yaaqob (James) 5:11, "Behold, we regard as blessed those who endure. You have heard of the patience of Iyyob, and have seen the ultimate result (telos) of Yahweh: that Yahweh is very compassionate and merciful."
Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."
Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"
telos is not "termination" it the "goal" Messiah walk is the perfect example of the intent of the Law..
Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."
1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith--the salvation of your souls."
If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away in 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9. Unless of course telos means the goal.
Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)
HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.
James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."
SO if telos is "termination" as you say then in James 5:11 it is the "termination" "of the Lord", no it is not, end/termination is a mistranslation/misunderstanding of what is written in the greek...
Yaaqob (James) 5:11, "Behold, we regard as blessed those who endure. You have heard of the patience of Iyyob, and have seen the ultimate result (telos) of Yahweh: that Yahweh is very compassionate and merciful."
Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."
Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"
Grace is inseparable from obedience of our Father.
If we love God, we will obey Him, and above all, His teaching and example when He came to save us.
If you love your fellow man, you will never teach that the law, lawfully applied, is obsolete. You will teach obedience to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirt.
If you have the law written on you inward parts and on the tablet of your heart, you willobey them because you will know them.
Yes, all the law hangs on love, thus in love is the law, so do not teach against it, it is always to be obeyed.
Do not teach againt the Teacher Who obeyed all the law perfectly for us all. He teaches the laws are not abolished.
Do not say Paul has taught to the contrary, for he did not teach against the teachings of the Master. If you believe he did, then you are not understanding Paul.
Never use Paul to attempt to refute Jesus Christ for they are in agreement.
Now, so not just go around telling peopel grace, grae without understanding for grace does not trample the Blood of the Lamb.
I have come to this post because the post needs this clarification. Do not judge me for the content, for it is from Jesus Christ, look to HIm for He is Rabboni, our teacher. God bless all who go beyond loving from the lips, and keep the commandments of God, amen.
If we love God, we will obey Him, and above all, His teaching and example when He came to save us.
If you love your fellow man, you will never teach that the law, lawfully applied, is obsolete. You will teach obedience to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirt.
If you have the law written on you inward parts and on the tablet of your heart, you willobey them because you will know them.
Yes, all the law hangs on love, thus in love is the law, so do not teach against it, it is always to be obeyed.
Do not teach againt the Teacher Who obeyed all the law perfectly for us all. He teaches the laws are not abolished.
Do not say Paul has taught to the contrary, for he did not teach against the teachings of the Master. If you believe he did, then you are not understanding Paul.
Never use Paul to attempt to refute Jesus Christ for they are in agreement.
Now, so not just go around telling peopel grace, grae without understanding for grace does not trample the Blood of the Lamb.
I have come to this post because the post needs this clarification. Do not judge me for the content, for it is from Jesus Christ, look to HIm for He is Rabboni, our teacher. God bless all who go beyond loving from the lips, and keep the commandments of God, amen.
you mix truth with error. (much of what you say is valid IMO)
Yes the Law shows us where we fail but it also shows us correction. How could it possibly point out our error and not show the proper way? That part is the most non-sense assessment that can be.
SO some one puts a table together wrong, another takes it apart and shows them the proper way to assemble the table..... and you telling me the only beneficial thing was the corrector telling the other he put it together wrong? there is also the proper way shown... "His word is a lamp to my feet"
Scripture shows:
2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
Psalm 119:
9How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word.
24Indeed your statutes are my delight, and my counselors.
29Keep me from the way of deceit. Grant me your law graciously!
36Turn my heart toward your statutes, not toward selfish gain.
1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
Yes the Law shows us where we fail but it also shows us correction. How could it possibly point out our error and not show the proper way? That part is the most non-sense assessment that can be.
SO some one puts a table together wrong, another takes it apart and shows them the proper way to assemble the table..... and you telling me the only beneficial thing was the corrector telling the other he put it together wrong? there is also the proper way shown... "His word is a lamp to my feet"
Scripture shows:
2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
Psalm 119:
9How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word.
24Indeed your statutes are my delight, and my counselors.
29Keep me from the way of deceit. Grant me your law graciously!
36Turn my heart toward your statutes, not toward selfish gain.
1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
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Look, I believe it comes down to this....
Mankind in his natural state is lost, blind, cannot understand the word of God, know God, apply the word of God, live according to the word of God, enter the kingdom of God, work his way to the kingdom of God etc.
At the end of the day because of God's MERCY and GRACE God did the following.....
1. Put a plan into action before he ever cast down the world to redeem humanity
2. Dealt to every man a measure of faith
3. Put his SON on the cross for humanity which resulted in his beating and brutal death
4. Testifies through word, creation and the invisible things
5. Paid the price for humanities redemption
6. GAVE THE LAW which....
a. proves our guilt and inability to measure up to God's standards
b. Points to the one who can measure up and his faith
7. Saves, justifies and sanctifies forever those who will but acknowledge his SON
That is grace and mercy and once a child of man has been redeemed and made a child of God by faith dia grace and mercy they in turn can begin to LOVE GOD and LOVE their brethren upon which ALL of the LAW and PROPHETS HANG....
Rather simple at the end of the day......ALL according to the un-matchless, marvelous, wonderous GRACE of GOD!
Mankind in his natural state is lost, blind, cannot understand the word of God, know God, apply the word of God, live according to the word of God, enter the kingdom of God, work his way to the kingdom of God etc.
At the end of the day because of God's MERCY and GRACE God did the following.....
1. Put a plan into action before he ever cast down the world to redeem humanity
2. Dealt to every man a measure of faith
3. Put his SON on the cross for humanity which resulted in his beating and brutal death
4. Testifies through word, creation and the invisible things
5. Paid the price for humanities redemption
6. GAVE THE LAW which....
a. proves our guilt and inability to measure up to God's standards
b. Points to the one who can measure up and his faith
7. Saves, justifies and sanctifies forever those who will but acknowledge his SON
That is grace and mercy and once a child of man has been redeemed and made a child of God by faith dia grace and mercy they in turn can begin to LOVE GOD and LOVE their brethren upon which ALL of the LAW and PROPHETS HANG....
Rather simple at the end of the day......ALL according to the un-matchless, marvelous, wonderous GRACE of GOD!
i AGREE here 100%
Psalm 86:8-11, "There is none like You among the gods O Yahweh, and there are no works like Your works. All the nations, which You have made, will come and worship in front of You, O Yahweh, and glorify Your Name. For You are great and do wondrous things; You Alone, O Yahweh, are our Father. Teach us Your way, O Yahweh, and we will walk in Your truth! Make us one in heart; a unity, to reverence Your Name!"
Psalm 86:8-11, "There is none like You among the gods O Yahweh, and there are no works like Your works. All the nations, which You have made, will come and worship in front of You, O Yahweh, and glorify Your Name. For You are great and do wondrous things; You Alone, O Yahweh, are our Father. Teach us Your way, O Yahweh, and we will walk in Your truth! Make us one in heart; a unity, to reverence Your Name!"
This is it! Except you forgot obedience? No talk of obedience?
His mercy an grace is meant to lead us to repentance and obedience...
Romans 2:4
New Living Translation
Don't you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can't you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
English Standard Version
Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
New American Standard Bible
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”
His instructions show us how He wants us to be, as our perfect example, Yahshua/Jesus was...
His mercy an grace is meant to lead us to repentance and obedience...
Romans 2:4
New Living Translation
Don't you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can't you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
English Standard Version
Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
New American Standard Bible
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”
His instructions show us how He wants us to be, as our perfect example, Yahshua/Jesus was...
E
How can the law show us correction? get real man. It is not mixed with error it is facts, if the law could make us good people. then what purpose does God serve? why did Christ come die to free us from the law. why did paul says the law can not make us holy?
the law says do not covet. does it tell me how not to covet? no it does not.. The legalistic says it does, that is why he keeps being called legalistic. his whole life is based on do not, and do's, and not on love.
No I am saying what God said in his word. The law was given to us as a schoomastor (tutor) to bring us to Christ, but after christ, we are no longer under a tutur.
it does not matter what way you put the table together, if it does not tell you HOW to do what it says you are to do. then it is useless in helping one obey it.
what does that have to do with anything?
You do not commit murder. wow. Did the law tell you how not to do that. Did you do it out of fear. did you do it out of an obligation (religious) did you do it because you did not want to be seen as a law breaker? or did you do it out of love (which if this is the case, you do not need the law which says do not murder, for you would never be tempted to do it).
I am sorry bro. you do not make any sense when you continue to push laws and rules down everyone throat and get angry when people are humble enough to say they can not obey the law as required (perfection) and would rather learn how to love people instead of using some guideline of a rule book to try to see how much better they are than others.
A person of faith obeys because he has faith, Not because he is following some list of rules and regulations.
the law says do not covet. does it tell me how not to covet? no it does not.. The legalistic says it does, that is why he keeps being called legalistic. his whole life is based on do not, and do's, and not on love.
No I am saying what God said in his word. The law was given to us as a schoomastor (tutor) to bring us to Christ, but after christ, we are no longer under a tutur.
it does not matter what way you put the table together, if it does not tell you HOW to do what it says you are to do. then it is useless in helping one obey it.
what does that have to do with anything?
You do not commit murder. wow. Did the law tell you how not to do that. Did you do it out of fear. did you do it out of an obligation (religious) did you do it because you did not want to be seen as a law breaker? or did you do it out of love (which if this is the case, you do not need the law which says do not murder, for you would never be tempted to do it).
I am sorry bro. you do not make any sense when you continue to push laws and rules down everyone throat and get angry when people are humble enough to say they can not obey the law as required (perfection) and would rather learn how to love people instead of using some guideline of a rule book to try to see how much better they are than others.
A person of faith obeys because he has faith, Not because he is following some list of rules and regulations.