sinless? or sinning less.

[haz]

I'm new to this,is my 1 st 1, but I think im in trouble an have sinnered moor cut i was tryin to punnins me for all the uther sins i did and now im in a spot and im a new cristiun that s only just bin reborn and i think I didnt understand the rules an am in a wurst spot.

There's only 2 rules that Jesus gives us in the Bible.
See 1John 3:23

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

As you can see above, Jesus gave us 2 rules.
1: Believe on Jesus
2: Love one another ( and live does not hurt another. Love also forgives 7x70)

 

[gotime]

Interestingly, many who join the sda church have come from Pentecostal churches. I do not find that hard to understand. Apart from two or three obvious doctrinal differences(on both sides) the general thrust of belief as to what a person must do to attain Heaven is pretty much the same, so I have found is the structure of the service.

What I do know is, to a Seventh Day Adventist the Ten Commandments are of great significance, therefore, we can know that a Seventh day Adventist would have to consider those laws/commandments would be written on the mind and placed on the heart of every born again believer. Indeed, in my wifes church when someone is baptised those commandments are specifically mentioned as being ''active'' and must be followed. Therefore I cannot imagine an sda member thinking commandments so important to follow would not be considered important enough to placed within the born again Christian

We don't see it that way, what I mean is I don't think God places rules in your heart or knowledge that you did not have before. , but rather his love is put on our hearts that is the law on the heart.
Love will cause a few things to happen automatically even without the knowledge.

for example, not stealing, while you may not know the law "thou shalt not steal" love would automatically prevent you from stealing from another.

however the Sabbath would not be automatic as love does not dictate a day or a ritual of any kind. but when one comes into knowledge of Gods Sabbath it is that love that causes us to act on that knowledge.

That is why we still can be convicted by the word, God does not just download us with all the information but rather puts His love in our hearts.

 

[michael56]

We don't see it that way, what I mean is I don't think God places rules in your heart or knowledge that you did not have before. , but rather his love is put on our hearts that is the law on the heart.
Love will cause a few things to happen automatically even without the knowledge.

for example, not stealing, while you may not know the law "thou shalt not steal" love would automatically prevent you from stealing from another.

however the Sabbath would not be automatic as love does not dictate a day or a ritual of any kind. but when one comes into knowledge of Gods Sabbath it is that love that causes us to act on that knowledge.

That is why we still can be convicted by the word, God does not just download us with all the information but rather puts His love in our hearts.

I would refer you to my previous comment

 

[gotime]

You previously stated-and I quote:

'''See the lawis good, holy and Just. its not bad but it became death to us because we brokeit. That includes the Sabbath.

When that same Good, holy , Just law is in our hearts we are empowered by Godsspirit to now walk in those very laws we used to break. that is salvation fromsin in Christ.

The reason the Sabbath is not on yourheart is you refuse to let God put it there by refusing to accept it is sin inthe fristplace to break it. You don't see your need as you should.'''

Also:

'''God doesnot force but you refuse to acknowledge that not keeping the Sabbath is sin.You reject the law of God as a reprover of sin and thus you reject Gods writingit on your heart.'''


I think from the above it is safe to assume you do believe observing a Saturday Sabbath is a law written on the Christians mind and placed on their heart

I have not worded my point very well here, the point I was trying to make fits with the last post I made before this one.

God puts his Love in our hearts, not knowledge. The word of God gives us the Knowledge. It is His love that causes us to obey the word.

 

[gotime]

lol I just referred you to the comment I made to answer the comment you made which you have now referred me to. that is funny.

 

[michael56]

I have not worded my point very well here, the point I was trying to make fits with the last post I made before this one.

God puts his Love in our hearts, not knowledge. The word of God gives us the Knowledge. It is His love that causes us to obey the word.

When I first started debating on Christian websites, I could not remember all of the Ten Commandments as written in scripture. For the purposes of debate, I read through them again. I discovered nine of them were on my heart, I was convicted to obey them already, but not a specific Saturday Sabbath.

However we word it, God must put the desire to obey him within us, therefore he must put knowledge within us of what he wants us to obey. The wording of the new covenant is:

I will write my laws on their minds and place them on their hearts

 

[michael56]

lol I just referred you to the comment I made to answer the comment you made which you have now referred me to. that is funny.

Please let us keep it simple, I am getting confused!!

 

[gotime]

Please let us keep it simple, I am getting confused!!

I just found it funny,

you wrote a post and I wrote one referring you to my last post. while I was writing that post you wrote a post referring me to the post that I just tried to answer by referring you to my post.

 

[gotime]

When I first started debating on Christian websites, I could not remember all of the Ten Commandments as written in scripture. For the purposes of debate, I read through them again. I discovered nine of them were on my heart, I was convicted to obey them already, but not a specific Saturday Sabbath.

However we word it, God must put the desire to obey him within us, therefore he must put knowledge within us of what he wants us to obey. The wording of the new covenant is:

I will write my laws on their minds and place them on their hearts

I disagree on that point, I don't believe God writes knowledge on our hearts, but puts his love in our hearts.

The word gives us Knowledge and it is His love in us that causes us to obey that word.

I had the law written on my heart also, but not that Sabbath. that was because love automatically does not steal from others. why? cause we love them.

For example, when I fell in love with my wife, I did not need a law in order to treat her nice, I did not need some special knowledge to respect her. Love made those things automatic. But doing something special on her birthday required more than just love, I needed the knowledge of what day was her birthday.

Or if there was something she really liked. My love for her could not fulfill it until I had the knowledge of that thing she liked then my love for her compelled me to get that thing.

So it is with the Sabbath, God does not write keep the Sabbath on our hearts. but he put His love in my heart, it was not until through the word that I gained the knowledge of how special the Sabbath is to God and to those who love Him that my love compelled me to keep it.

 

[haz]

Hi haz,

you said "BUT, you claim that Christians are immediately unclean with sin, again, after we've been washed.
What scripture do you base this on?"

I don't believe that at all, things I may have written may well have given you that impression. but no I don't think committing sin pulls you out of salvation like a yo yo. We simply confess and continue to walk with our Lord.

I acknowledge what you say here, but it still does not explain away the "yo-yo" position of Christians under such doctrine where they are washed cleaned of sin, but then become dirty with sin again. It just does not make sense and is not supported in scripture.

The Cross deals with all sin past present and future. but if a person turns back to sin/deliberate premeditated sin. then the way back is the same way they first got there, confession and faith in Jesus to cleanse us.

Rom 3:25 says the cross deals with PAST sin. It doesn't mention future sin.

What scripture do you refer to in saying that any Christian who does deliberate premeditated sin has to go back to the start of confession and faith in Jesus?

you also said:

Now you no doubt see many of us here on CC as unclean sinners because we do not keep the Sabbath as Adventists say it should be kept. Now many here have heard the teachings about the Sabbath numerous times here on CC. Are you saying that we're unsaved because we rejected (based on scripture) these warnings about keeping the Sabbath?

There you are wrong and again i probably have written things that gave you that impression. I don't think that everyone who does not keep the Sabbath is unsaved. Most do not keep it because they just don't understand it yet.

But if someone has seen it and understood it to be still in effect and then rejects it then they are in trouble.
.

Many here on CC, like myself, have heard Adventist doctrine about the physical Sabbath many times. And we reject it based on scripture.
Instead we look to the spiritual Sabbath, God's rest.

But to take your point further, you said in an earlier post that only the unsaved commit adultery.
Does the same rule apply as with the Sabbath?

To use your quote above, can we adapt it for all the commandments?
"I don't think that everyone who commits adultery, or covets, or steals, is unsaved. Most do not keep it because they just don't understand it yet."

 

[michael56]

I disagree on that point, I don't believe God writes knowledge on our hearts, but puts his love in our hearts.

The word gives us Knowledge and it is His love in us that causes us to obey that word.

I had the law written on my heart also, but not that Sabbath. that was because love automatically does not steal from others. why? cause we love them.


So it is with the Sabbath, God does not write keep the Sabbath on our hearts. but he put His love in my heart, it was not until through the word that I gained the knowledge of how special the Sabbath is to God and to those who love Him that my love compelled me to keep it.

If love was put on your heart, and love fulfils the law, and love brings you to obey the Ten Commandments, how could you not be then instinctively obeying a commandment? That is not credible!!

Previously you stated God does write on our hearts the need to observe a Saturday Sabbath. To carry your logic through, nine of the Ten Commandments are upheld through loving but the fourth one isn't until you read it in scripture.

I imagine that is the nearest you will go to admitting the unadmittable

 

[gotime]

If love was put on your heart, and love fulfils the law, and love brings you to obey the Ten Commandments, how could you not be then instinctively obeying a commandment? That is not credible!!

Previously you stated God does write on our hearts the need to observe a Saturday Sabbath. To carry your logic through, nine of the Ten Commandments are upheld through loving but the fourth one isn't until you read it in scripture.

I imagine that is the nearest you will go to admitting the unadmittable

not really following what you have written here sorry.

Its real simple,

The law is summed up in one word love. love for God love for others.

If God puts his law/love on your heart, you will put Him first you will not use his name in vain you will not steal etc.

Even if you did not know the law.

However the Sabbath requires some knowledge so does Idols in some cultures. This is where the word of God comes in.

and the love of God causes us to act on that knowledge.

Like I said, when I began to follow Christ I did not initially obey the Sabbath, Why? cause I did not know it. but when I learned about it the same love God put in me compelled me to keep it.

 

[michael56]

not really following what you have written here sorry.

Its real simple,

The law is summed up in one word love. love for God love for others.

If God puts his law/love on your heart, you will put Him first you will not use his name in vain you will not steal etc.

Even if you did not know the law.

However the Sabbath requires some knowledge so does Idols in some cultures. This is where the word of God comes in.

and the love of God causes us to act on that knowledge.

Like I said, when I began to follow Christ I did not initially obey the Sabbath, Why? cause I did not know it. but when I learned about it the same love God put in me compelled me to keep it.

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[SUP][a][/SUP] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law

Rom 13:8-10

I'm sorry to have to say this, but in order to be sinless, we have to be stripped of pride, and admit when we get it wrong. Anything else is of the flesh

 

[gotime]

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[SUP][a][/SUP] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law

Rom 13:8-10

I'm sorry to have to say this, but in order to be sinless, we have to be stripped of pride, and admit when we get it wrong. Anything else is of the flesh

I am not following you have I missed something?

 

[michael56]

Can someone become a Christian and murder without conscience? No! Can they steal, lie, commit adultery, covet, dishonour their parents, take the Lords name in vain, make graven images, refuse to love God without conscience? No!!

But some believe they can break the fourth commandment of observing a specific Saturday Sabbath without conscience. That immediatley sets the fourth apart from the other nine.

 

[gotime]

Can someone become a Christian and murder without conscience? No! Can they steal, lie, commit adultery, covet, dishonour their parents, take the Lords name in vain, make graven images, refuse to love God without conscience? No!!

But some believe they can break the fourth commandment of observing a specific Saturday Sabbath without conscience. That immediatley sets the fourth apart from the other nine.

indeed it does, but the graven images one can be also. Some cultures are brought up with idols and it is normal. Even when they follow Christ the only reason they would not have an idol is because the love acts on the knowledge given.

I have already said that, love does not automatically make someone keep the 7th day as Sabbath. it does not make someone have any day as a special day without some knowledge behind it.

Just like my love for my wife does not suddenly give me knowledge of what her favorite dessert is.

 

[michael56]

indeed it does, but the graven images one can be also. Some cultures are brought up with idols and it is normal. Even when they follow Christ the only reason they would not have an idol is because the love acts on the knowledge given.

I have already said that, love does not automatically make someone keep the 7th day as Sabbath. it does not make someone have any day as a special day without some knowledge behind it.

Just like my love for my wife does not suddenly give me knowledge of what her favorite dessert is.

I know people in whos culture it was common practice to say 'OMG' and 'Jesus' They say that is the reason they used those terms jokingly, and laughing as Christians without having any conscience they were offending God by doing so. Yet I know other Christians from their same country who have a conscience at taking the Lord's name in vain and therefore would not do so. It is only in ONE CHURCH I have ever been to where I have seen such taking of the Lords name in vain without conscience.

 

[gotime]

I know people in whos culture it was common practice to say 'OMG' and 'Jesus' They say that is the reason they used those terms jokingly, and laughing as Christians without having any conscience they were offending God by doing so. Yet I know other Christians from their same country who have a conscience at taking the Lord's name in vain and therefore would not do so. It is only in ONE CHURCH I have ever been to where I have seen such taking of the Lords name in vain without conscience.

Everybody has different upbringing, what is ok and what is not, what is normal and what is not changes by culture but even from family to family.

Can't put everyone in the same boat.

 

[michael56]

Everybody has different upbringing, what is ok and what is not, what is normal and what is not changes by culture but even from family to family.

Can't put everyone in the same boat.

Culture may change, but the law God puts within you does not. Sin is transgression of the law. You must know when you break the law placed within you

 

[SoulWeaver]

Uhm... Actually Christians dont believe in dishonoring the commandment without conscience, they just disagree on what or WHO Sabbath is... some think it's a day, others think the day was a promise of resting in God. Everyone shall answer to God according to their own conscience on this, because all not of faith is sin, if you doubt in your faith and think it might be a day, but not keep it, you are damned, and otherwise. A lot of Christians do not believe and will never believe that the commanded sabbath for Christians is one day in a week. Because of Hebrews 4 and Romans 14, and because God is not an author of confusion to teach that, but think something opposite.

I for myself dont condemn people who keep OT Sabbath but the problem is when they push it on others and think they are more righteous or something. Sabbath is a WHO and a promise fulfilled, based on the NT teaching. Of course it's my uttmost desire to keep Him, not just one day a week, but 24/7. Btw, if you're striving still, you cannot be resting.