When does the rapture occur?

valiant · Apr 3, 2015

Notice how you have introduced three little words which make all the difference, thus adding to the book of Revelation. And you should know what the penalty for that is. See Rev 22.18.

John says NOTHING about the reign being on earth, Indeed the opposite. It was the SOULS of the martyrs, together with those of all who had not worshipped the Beast and His image and had not received his mark, which lived and reigned with Christ. They lived and reigned with Christ in Heaven, because they had had their part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection). In the same way as WE who are His on earth have been raised and are seated with Christ in the heavenly places far above all authorities and powers (Eph 2.5-6; 1.20-21). We also live and reign with Christ NOW. We too have had ur part in the first resurrection. (Rom 6.2-11; Eph 2.1-6)

The RV puts the Greek literally, - 'and made them unto our God a kingdom and priests, and they reign on the earth.'

We are God's kingdom, we are God's earthy priests (1 Pet 2.5, 9). And we are reigning on earth now (Rom 5.17).

GaryA · Apr 3, 2015

popeye said:

It is a misunderstanding that there are three questions --- when, there are actually only two...

~ Tell us, when shall these things be?

and

~ what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

GRA said:

Read the following 3 accounts of the same discourse very carefully.

Matthew 24:

[SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:

[SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, [SUP]4[/SUP] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:

[SUP]7[/SUP] And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Grammatically speaking, there are actually only two questions present in the Matthew account. The phrases 'what shall be the sign of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' do not indicate two separate questions; rather, the phrase 'of the end of the world' is an "extension" of / to the phrase 'of thy coming' - giving definition to the sentence in the way of:

"What shall be the sign of thy coming - which is at the time of the end of the world."

The same 'sign' marks both 'of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' -- both phrases are references of / to the same 'event'.

In all three accounts - the 'sign' is singular ( i.e. - one sign, not multiple signs ) - and points to the "these things" as a collective whole.

In all three accounts - the same two [essential] questions are asked:

1. "When shall these things be?"
2. "What 'sign' (singular) will there be to indicate that the 'these things' are about to happen?"

Only, the Matthew account adds more definition into the 'these things' than the other two accounts.

This is what they are asking. Jesus actually gave them more information than what they were asking for.

valiant · Apr 3, 2015

john832 said:

yes that was spoken of Antiochus IV but there is no suggestion that the Jews still had control of the Sanctuary. Far from it. And there are no grounds for claiming a second fulfilment, apart from that in 70 AD. Besides Daniel gives no indication of two fulfilments. 70 AD was simply a repetition in which the Jews brought God's judgment on their Temple a second time, this time for ever.

But in Rev 11 the people use it unmolested. That is the great difference. For it is a spiritual Sanctuary, believers in Christ Jesus.

popeye · Apr 3, 2015

GaryA said:

You listed 3. Recount please.

Actually never mind,carry on

valiant · Apr 3, 2015

PlainWord said:

But the early church considered that it had (Rom 1.8). They saw Jesus' words as referring to the known world.

The abomination of desolation was the entry of the Roman eagles with their idolatrous significance into the Temple and even into the Holiest place. And it was also the very fact that they had invested the Holy City. Titus was there as the representative of the 'god' Caesar. But you must not confuse 2 Thess 2 with the abomination of desolation. It does not say there that 'the temple of god' was the Jewish temple. Caligula made himself god in many temples.

Not at all. The end of the age is described later on AFTER great tribulation on the Jews.

The great tribulation on the Jews commenced in 70 AD and has continued on until the present day. Luke 21 makes that clear. Thus the great tribulation on the Jews, emphasised in Deut 28 has been going on for 2000 years. The abomination of desolation is before it, the second coming is after it.

On this we can agree but it does not affect the interpretation of the abomination of desolation or the significance of great tribulation on the Jews (which could at first be avoided by fleeing to the mountains as the early church did).

Note the order of the question.

But Mark majors on 'when shall these things (the destruction of the Temple) be'? Thus he sees Jesus as specifically answering that question in the abomination of desolation which therefore refers to the destruction of Herod's temple.

Jesus' coming would follow the great tribulation on the Jews which followed for 2000 years.

no

where does John refer to the abomination of desolation?

the great tribulation in Matthew was on the Jews and has lasted 2000 years.. the great tribulation in Rev 7 refers back to rev 2.20-22 and refers to tribulation on all Christians. It is not specific to the Jews. And it refers to tribulation to Christians throughout this age. All God's people suffer tribulation continually.

popeye · Apr 3, 2015

valiant said:

But the early church considered that it had (Rom 1.8). They saw Jesus' words as referring to the known world.

The abomination of desolation was the entry of the Roman eagles with their idolatrous significance into the Temple and even into the Holiest place. And it was also the very fact that they had invested the Holy City. Titus was there as the representative of the 'god' Caesar. But you must not confuse 2 Thess 2 with the abomination of desolation. It does not say there that 'the temple of god' was the Jewish temple. Caligula made himself god in many temples.

Not at all. The end of the age is described later on AFTER great tribulation on the Jews.

The great tribulation on the Jews commenced in 70 AD and has continued on until the present day. Luke 21 makes that clear. Thus the great tribulation on the Jews, emphasised in Deut 28 has been going on for 2000 years. The abomination of desolation is before it, the second coming is after it.

On this we can agree but it does not affect the interpretation of the abomination of desolation or the significance of great tribulation on the Jews (which could at first be avoided by fleeing to the mountains as the early church did).

Note the order of the question.

But Mark majors on 'when shall these things (the destruction of the Temple) be'? Thus he sees Jesus as specifically answering that question in the abomination of desolation which therefore refers to the destruction of Herod's temple.

Jesus' coming would follow the great tribulation on the Jews which followed for 2000 years.

no

where does John refer to the abomination of desolation?

the great tribulation in Matthew was on the Jews and has lasted 2000 years.. the great tribulation in Rev 7 refers back to rev 2.20-22 and refers to tribulation on all Christians. It is not specific to the Jews. And it refers to tribulation to Christians throughout this age. All God's people suffer tribulation continually.

Jesus used "1 taken,1 left" in mat 24.He also gave the anology of Noah.That analogy had nothing to do with a postrib/midtrib departure(rapture).

PlainWord · Apr 3, 2015

GaryA said:

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do agree that "tribulation" has been going on since John the Baptist (who was the first martyr) and especially since Christ. Those who followed Christ in His day faced constant "tribulation." The Jewish people and Christians have been facing tribulation since then and it continues to this day. It does appear to be getting worse on a global basis.

The word "Tribulation" or "Tribulations" as it appears 32 times in the Bible almost always (31 times) refers to the persecution and death of "God's People" at the hands of the wicked. Therefore Mat 24:15-28, and its related passages, are DIRE WARNINGS to those Christ loves. The warning is of the "GREAT TRIBULATION" which is an unparallelled period of violence and slaughter of those Christ loves. You have correctly identified that the target of the Great Tribulation, which puts you in rare air

(unlike so many Christians who mistakenly think the Tribulation is divine wrath against the wicked), but you fail to see that the Great Tribulation has not yet started.

The trigger for the start of the Great Tribulation is the appearance of the Abomination of Desolation. This A of D event, whatever it is and wherever it appears, is of unspeakable evil. I believe it will be the greatest offense to God that the world has ever seen. It was foretold some 2,500 years ago and reaffirmed by Christ. I further believe that when it happens, the slaughter begins and that's why those in Judea are told to immediately flee. The GT is so bad that God must intervene and put a stop to it or Satan will kill everybody. I believe that when it ends, we see the signs in heaven. It may be that those signs are the reason the killing stops. Those doing the killing see the signs and have an "oh crap, what have I been doing?" moment.

PlainWord · Apr 3, 2015

popeye said:

I'm telling the world that Satan comes first. You tell the world that Jesus comes, then Satan comes, then Jesus comes back again. The problem with that view is; first there is no passage which teach two separate future returns of Christ, and secondly, what is the point of Satan coming second. Who is left to deceive who? Those already deceived and supposedly new converts to the faith. What is the point in that? Why does Satan want to further deceive those who already rejected Christ? He has them already. Why would God allow Satan to fool brand new Christians who don't know the first thing about the faith, who have nobody on earth with faith to teach them? It would be like sending out lambs to the slaughter.

The clear teaching is Satan is cast to earth with great wrath. Satan is persecuting and killing Saints, this is the Great Tribulation. God puts a stop to it. God pours out wrath. Christ returns and then gathers the remnant and finishes the job.

VCO · Apr 3, 2015

valiant said:

☝t<><
1 Peter 2:5 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

I guess you just did not notice that was FUTURE TENSE. and the FIRST RESURRECTION and SECOND RESURRECTION are BOTH PHYSICALLY FROM THE GRACE. Who teaches you this TWISTED THEOLOGY. HERE is the FIRST RESURRECTION of the BELIEVERS and it is certainly a PHYSICAL RESURRECTION Of OUR BODIES.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NKJV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP] Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP] So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
[SUP]55 [/SUP] "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

SO WE DO NOT ACTUALLY REIGN UNTIL HE RAISES US FROM THE DEAD, IF HE DOES NOT COME FOR US BEFORE WE DIE. Now we are being prepared to reign with HIM, after HE sets up HIS earthly KINGDOM, reigning from the THRONE of DAVID, in JERUSALEM.

Oh, and don't forget, we also reign with HIM as the BRIDE OF CHRIST, so that is AFTER the Wedding of the LAMB.

Why do you suppose that almost ALL of the Mainline theologians disagree with you? Who has been teaching you those twisted false teachings, the Jehovah Witnesses? The FACT that there is a 1000 Year Time limit mentioned, MAKES IT AN EARTHLY KINGDOM. The Heavenly KINGDOM is ETERNAL, and that does NOT mean it is broken up into Time Segments. There will not be TIME as we know it now in the ETERNAL STATE, it will just be ETERNAL. GOD is NOT a created Being traveling through TIME, HE IS THEE "I AM", the creator of TIME as we know it. HE is NOT the I Was, the I AM, and the I Will BE, HE IS THEE "I AM"; simultaneously Omnipresent in all Space and all TIME at the same time.

1 John 3:2 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

How did you miss that one?

2 Peter 3:3-4 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." My turn to ask you some Questions with the hope you can answer them straight forward with honesty, or will you just play the "dodge answering questions game" that the psuedo-Christian Cults play:

1. Which Church or Denomination do you come from?

2. Do you believe Jesus Christ is GOD in the Flesh?

3. Have you ever genuinely mourned over your utter sinfulness, and cried out to HIM for forgiveness?

4. Have you ever genuinely surrendered complete control of your life to JESUS CHRIST as LORD, which means MASTER?

5. Which BIBLE TEACHERS do you listen to?

6. Do you believe in the PHYSICAL RESURRECTION, and PHYSICAL ASCENSION, and Future PHYSICAL SECOND COMING of the LORD JESUS CHRIST?

7. DO YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS ALL INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF?

PlainWord · Apr 3, 2015

The teachings are clear:

Rev 12: ...Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Dan 7:[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Rev 13: [SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Mat 24: [SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation...then there will be great tribulation...[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Nowhere in the Olivet does Christ discuss even a hint about an earlier return where He takes His faithful off the planet. All teachings are consistent. Satan comes first, he deceives and wages war against the saints. There is no teaching of two different groups of saints, pre trib raptured saints and trib saints who get slaughtered!! A pre Trib Ratpure Return of Christ voids the very serious and dire warnings of Christ, Daniel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul and John. These warnings are for us, not some unknown future, yet-to-be-saved, new group of Tribulation era Christians.

A prophet is a teacher; a teacher who speaks of the future

Who gains by lulling the Christian world to sleep by getting them to think that they won't be here to face Satan's wrath? Do we have any examples of the Jewish people listening to false prophets who tell them they are safe then suddenly they are attacked, slaughtered and led into captivity?

Ezek 13: [SUP]16 [/SUP]that is, the prophets of Israel who prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and who see visions of peace for her when there is no peace,’” says the Lord God.

Christ has told us to watch out!! Christ told us that He comes "AFTER the Tribulation" and He never breathes a word about coming before it.

Jackson123 · Apr 3, 2015

MarcR said:

Isa 66:8
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
KJV

The nation is modern Israel. The day was 5/15/1948.

The fig tree is a figure of the nation of Israel, not only in Scripture but throughout ancient Jewish literature and commentary.

Mt 24:2-17

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
KJV

what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? This sets the context for what follows.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

While there have alwaysbeen wars,there have been more wars and more loss of life from wars in the last 100 years than in all of previous history.

there shall be famines there are famines now in nations that have never before experienced them.

and pestilences new killer diseases are running rampant worldwide.

and earthquakes, in divers places. There have been more and stronger earthquakes worldwide in the last 50 years than in the 500 years previous to them.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: More believers are being killed, tortured, and persecuted in the world today than at any prior time in history.

And then shall many be offended, There is more apostasy from the faith in the last 50 years than in all prior history.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, The construction of the altar, which will permit the resumption of animal sacrifice was finished this past week.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Is this verse talking about tribulation?

You in this verse is Christian, so Christian go to tribulation?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

When Ye see= when you see= when Christian see

Christian able to see because still on the world, is that mean rapture happen after abomination of desolation?

PlainWord · Apr 3, 2015

[SUP]8 [/SUP]First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So is it your view that the above verse tells us that the Great Commission is over back in AD 57? Did the end come back then as Christ said it would once the Gospel was preached to all the world?

Mat 24: [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Are we to believe you? If the A of D was the day the temple was destroyed, it would have meant the A of D occurred on Aug 4, 70 AD, right? How do you explain the below passage?

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. [SUP]13 [/SUP]“But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

We are told that the Daily Sacrifices are taken away first - 1,290 days before the A of D is set up. So if the A of D was on August 4, AD 70, where the sacrifices stopped on January 22, AD 67? I don't think so!! What blessing was there to those who made it 45 days after the A of D? What happened on September 18, AD 70?

See, I think the above is at the end. I think the Great Tribulation starts on the same day as the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the future. I believe it lasts 45 days. During this 45 day period the slaughter will be unbelievable and God has to stop it or Satan will kill everyone.

See Dan 12. The GT lasts only 45 days.

Nope. The temple discussion happened while they were at the temple. That topic was over by the time they got to the Mount of Olives, a 15 to 20 minute walk.

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
[h=3]The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
[/h][SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives,

You see, there is a gap there. You and Gary keep focusing on the temple. The discussion was about Christ's return and the end of the age.

John doesn't call it by name. But I believe he is discussing it right here.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

This "IMAGE OF THE BEAST" I believe is the A of D.

I know that's what you think and that's what Gary thinks. I respect your view. I just think you are both wrong. You can't point to "sacrifices being taken away" 1,290 days (or years) prior to the Aug 4, 70 temple event. You can't point to anything that happened 45 days (or years) after this event.

Jesus invoked Daniel's Abomination of Desolation. Therefore we must go to Daniel as the source. Daniel uses the A of D term twice.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Read on as the next passage gives the timing..

[SUP]35 [/SUP]And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

It is at, or towards, the end. AD 70 was the end of the Jewish state for some 1878 years but it was not the end of the age. If you read Daniel 11 from around verse 29 to the end of Chapter 12 you get the sense that this is all END TIMES, future to us stuff as none of it can be said to be in the past. This passage is related to Ezekiel 27-28, the demise of Satan and Rev 17-18, the demise of Mystery Babylon which is the Islamic World.

VCO · Apr 3, 2015

VCO said:

☝t<><
1 Peter 2:5 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

I guess you just did not notice that was FUTURE TENSE. and the FIRST RESURRECTION and SECOND RESURRECTION are BOTH PHYSICALLY FROM THE GRACE. Who teaches you this TWISTED THEOLOGY. HERE is the FIRST RESURRECTION of the BELIEVERS and it is certainly a PHYSICAL RESURRECTION Of OUR BODIES.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NKJV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP] Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP] So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
[SUP]55 [/SUP] "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

SO WE DO NOT ACTUALLY REIGN UNTIL HE RAISES US FROM THE DEAD, IF HE DOES NOT COME FOR US BEFORE WE DIE. Now we are being prepared to reign with HIM, after HE sets up HIS earthly KINGDOM, reigning from the THRONE of DAVID, in JERUSALEM.

Oh, and don't forget, we also reign with HIM as the BRIDE OF CHRIST, so that is AFTER the Wedding of the LAMB.

Why do you suppose that almost ALL of the Mainline theologians disagree with you? Who has been teaching you those twisted false teachings, the Jehovah Witnesses? The FACT that there is a 1000 Year Time limit mentioned, MAKES IT AN EARTHLY KINGDOM. The Heavenly KINGDOM is ETERNAL, and that does NOT mean it is broken up into Time Segments. There will not be TIME as we know it now in the ETERNAL STATE, it will just be ETERNAL. GOD is NOT a created Being traveling through TIME, HE IS THEE "I AM", the creator of TIME as we know it. HE is NOT the I Was, the I AM, and the I Will BE, HE IS THEE "I AM"; simultaneously Omnipresent in all Space and all TIME at the same time.

1 John 3:2 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

How did you miss that one?

2 Peter 3:3-4 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." My turn to ask you some Questions with the hope you can answer them straight forward with honesty, or will you just play the "dodge answering questions game" that the psuedo-Christian Cults play:

1. Which Church or Denomination do you come from?

2. Do you believe Jesus Christ is GOD in the Flesh?

3. Have you ever genuinely mourned over your utter sinfulness, and cried out to HIM for forgiveness?

4. Have you ever genuinely surrendered complete control of your life to JESUS CHRIST as LORD, which means MASTER?

5. Which BIBLE TEACHERS do you listen to?

6. Do you believe in the PHYSICAL RESURRECTION, and PHYSICAL ASCENSION, and Future PHYSICAL SECOND COMING of the LORD JESUS CHRIST?

7. DO YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS ALL INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF?

SORRY,

My mistake a TYPO and my mind read it twice and did not pick up on the fact that I spelled it GRACE but meant GRAVE.

VCO · Apr 3, 2015

PlainWord said:

Plainword, Calm your jets, and I will show you that there are THREE groups of Saints involved in the First RESURRECTION. It certainly is in Scripture, but I doubt is if you will believe it or understand it, because you have to be Born Again first before you can fully understand Spiritual Truths.

Old Testament Saints:

Deuteronomy 33:3 (ASV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Yea, he loveth the people; All his saints are in thy hand: And they sat down at thy feet; Every one shall receive of thy
words.

Psalm 50:5 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Gather my saints together unto me, Those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

New Testament Saints:

Acts 9:32 (ASV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And it came to pass, as Peter went throughout all parts, he came down also to the saints that dwelt at Lydda.

Ephesians 1:15 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and the love which ye show toward all the saints,

Ephesians 4:12 (ASV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

Tribulation Saints:

Revelation 20:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them {New Testament Saints, specifically those chosen to be the Elders who will repesent the Church}, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they {all the Saints} lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

valiant · Apr 3, 2015

VCO said:

well RV which is much closer to the Greek being a literal translation and it says.' you also as living stones are built up a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood (now and continually) to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. It is not referring to a distant future from when the letter was written, but was speaking of a present ministry.

No doubt you can cite Scripture which says so? I don't think so. The first resurrection was physical because it was the resurrection of Christ. There is no other 'first resurrection'.

Resurrections occurred as follows:

Bodily resurrection of Christ 'first raised from the dead' (Acts 26.23) as the firstfruits (1 Cor 15.20)..
Bodily resurrection of Jewish saints (Matt 27.52-53).
Spiritual resurrection of those united with Christ (Eph 2.5-6)
Bodily resurrection of the two witnesses (Rev 11.11-12).,

How then could Rev 20 refer to a first resurrection unless it had in mind Christ's resurrection.? Bodily speaking it would be the fourth resurrection. But you will notice that in Rev 20.4 it is SOULS that have risen. It is thus speaking of their spiritual resurrection with Christ, raised with Him and seated with Him in heavenly places (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1).

In Scripture there is only one first resurrection, the first resurrection of Jesus Christ. As Acts 26.23 NIV says, 'that the Christ should suffer, AND AS THE FIRST TO RISE FROM THE DEAD would proclaim light to His own people and to the Gentiles.'

The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

As I have demonstrated this is the fourth physical resurrection. Here it is bodies that are raised not SOULS. Do you not take the trouble to discern what Scripture ACTUALLY says? Rev 20.4 speaks of the resurrection of SOULS.

I love the way you skip from translation to translation seeking the one that suits you. But it makes no difference. The dead in Christ rise first simply means first before the living saints. It does not indicate the first resurrection. It is the fourth resurrection.

Well I prefer to believe the Bible. Sorry about that, Its a peccadillo of mine. Paul specifically says that we are NOW raised from the dead and seated with Christ in the heavenly places (Eph 2.5-6) which are far above all principalities and powers (Eph 1.20-21). If that is not reigning I do not know what is. Furthermore we NOW reign in life through Christ (Rom 5.17). Perhaps you should get to know the Scriptures better before coming on here?

No New Testament Scripture says that He will reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem. That is your invention. Acts tells us that He is reigning from the throne of David in Heaven as LORD and Messiah (Acts 2.30, 36). And as Eph 2.5-6 makes clear we are reigning with Him now. You follow deluded and unscriptural doctrine.

No doubt you will cite a Scripture that SAYS that ? But of course as we are now reigning with Him we will continue to reign with Him when we die, and on throughout eternity.

LOL come over to the UK and you will find very differently. But it is also untrue in the US. In my evangelical Bible College such ideas were ignored as unscriptural and irrelevant.

No, the Scriptures as I have shown you. I don't follow Darby and Joan ooops I mean Darby and Newton. Show me one verse in the New Testament outside Revelation 20 (which is in doubt) which speaks of a millennium (not the twisted use of parables). You cannot. Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and Jude knew nothing of a millennium.

It does nothing of the kind. It simply indicates the use of 'a thousand' as a large undetermined number. Compare 'the cattle on a thousand hills', 'unto a thousand generations', and so on. Jesus and His saints are living and reigning NOW

Of course it is an eternal kingdom, following immediately on this present kingdom. There is not room for a millennial kingdom which will only result in failure, populated by a mixture of immortals and sinners..

I'm not sure what there is to miss. It has certainly not been revealed what we shall be for it will be too glorious for us to imagine. But how does that effect the issue? In fact it actually makes clear that JOHN has not revealed anything about out future beyond the resurrection. Thus NO MILLENNIUM

I'm not sure how this applies to me. I am awaiting His coming with expectancy so that He can issue me along with others into His eternal kingdom.

LOL it seems you have been asking all the questions, but I will play your little game. I have nothing to hide. And cheer up I don't belong to a cult.

I am a retired Baptist minister.

I believe Jesus Christ came as God in the flesh.

3

.

Click to expand...

Of course

Yes but this is getting a little insulting. However I have to recognise that you are an American. They insult everyone.

Well I primarily look to the Scriptures, but how about Jim Packer, John Stott, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, David Pawson, Donald Guthrie, to name but a few. I even read some American commentators like Carson and Moo among others. Your Professor Lesley Allen was my Hebrew lecturer.

6.

Of course.

7.

Click to expand...

Who else would inspire it? All Scripture is God-breathed.

Sorry to disappoint you. I pass with flying colours. Now perhaps you will consider what I have said again? Or are you just wasting my time?

VCO · Apr 3, 2015

valiant said:

BAPTIST? Then who changed your traditional Baptist Theology, never have I heard any Baptist with a view like you have on the End Times Prophecies. I Apologize, but because your interpretations are so FAR from the Traditional Baptist Teachings that I was doubting if it came from any Mainline Church. I am Sorry, I would have never guess anything close to Baptist.

JESUS was the FIRST FRUITS OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION. The First Resurrection includes Jesus, O.T. Saints., N.T. Saints, AND Tribulation Saints. The SECOND RESURRECTION, is 1000 years later is ONLY the UNSAVED OF ALL TIME TO FACE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. That I learned in an Independent Baptist Church and from Several of the following Bible teachers and all of them will disagree with what you are trying to tell us:

The Bible teachers that have had the most influence on my spiritual growth are:

Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - Grace to You sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
Dr. Charles Stanley - Home
Dr. Richard Lee - http://www.firstredeemer.org/
Dr. Zola Levitt - ZLM Video: “Passover/Unleavened Bread” - some free - videos
Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/
Dr. Ben Haden - Why
Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -

As well as the Pastors of Churches that I attended; Pastor Neil Berry and Pastor Gordan Broadbent especially.

Jackson123 · Apr 4, 2015

I believe the globalist make the rapture sooner, whether they aware or not.This will make ww iii

[video]https://youtu.be/gPjRUMrrio8[/video]

valiant · Apr 4, 2015

VCO said:

You are clearly American. Here in uk we do not make a big deal of detailed eschatology but you would find that only a small minority agreed with your views. Traditional baptist eschatological teaching over here does not believe in a millennium,for in our view it is not Scriptural. We exported it to America lol..

This is purely your assumption. You have NO SCRiPTURE to support it. At least I supported my view from Scripture.

Scripture does not mention a second resurrection anywhere. Again your view is pure assumption. you have no scriptural evidence to support it. So it really does not worry me that some of your teachers disagree with me. There is only ONE general resurrection. The first resurrection was of Christ, a resurrection in which all Christians participate spiritually. That is why we can go straight to Heaven when we die

I have not heard of most of them, but I am pleased if they helped you. However, they are wrong about the millennium. Jesus knew nothing of a millennium

VCO · Apr 4, 2015

valiant said:

☝t<><

You are using a very short Yard Stick to measure what Jesus KNEW, considering HE is GOD in the Flesh, and considering ONLY a very small FRACTION of His earthly Ministry is recorded in our BIBLES.

John 21:25 (NKJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

HIS earthly reign from the Throne of David, is the Millennium that is mentioned in Rev. 20:6. In the Eternal Kingdom there is NO sun rising and setting, to constitute measured time. I am sure you know that. Therefore when you have a measured time limited Kingdom it has to be a reference to a Kingdom here on earth, and I am convinced it is linked to the Fulfilling of the 70th Week of Daniel, GOD's promise to ISRAEL, that comes at the end of the Church-age and then the 144,000 get to live with their KING for a 1000 years. We will be in be in our resurrected or changed glorified bodies Reigning as Priests who were also teachers. And who will we be teaching. I believe it will be the children born in that 1000 year Kingdom, who will be living in a perfect world, that probably will be like the Garden of Eden. Those born in that perfect environment will need much Teaching. Primarily they will have to be taught to appreciate what CHRIST HAS DONE, and not to take it all for granted. Still sounds far fetched to you, and you still want to believe we go directly to the Eternal State of the Heavenly Kingdom? Then read this and explain to me how it is possible for there to be mortal people dying in the ETERNAL HEAVENLY KINGDOM.

Isaiah 65:18-22 (GW)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Be glad, and rejoice forever in what I'm going to create, because I'm going to create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people to be a joy.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I will rejoice about Jerusalem and be glad about my people. Screaming and crying will no longer be heard in the city.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] There will no longer be an infant who lives for only a few days or an old man who doesn't live a long life. Whoever lives to be a hundred years old will be thought of as young. Whoever dies before he is a hundred years old will be cursed as a sinner.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] They will build houses and live there. They will plant vineyards and eat fruit from them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] They will not build homes and have others live there. They will not plant and have others eat from it. My people will live as long as trees, and my chosen ones will enjoy what they've done. {Those are the 144,000 mortal Jews and their descendants, sealed to go into HIS Earthly Kingdom.}

It appears to me that you skipped over a thousand years of prophesied History of HIS Chosen People ISRAEL.
By now you are probably thinking if our home is Heaven in the New City Jerusalem, how are we going to get to Jerusalem on Earth to Minister as Priests? I believe that is one of the main lessons of the ladder in Jacob's Dream, GOD has provided a way.

Revelation 20:4-6 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. { ☜ That will be the Second Resurrection. The Second Resurrection of the unsaved is to face CHRIST's Judgement and the Second Death of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. That description is in Rev. 20:10-15. }
This is the first resurrection. {This and verse 6 is a continuation of what HE is talking about is verse 4.}
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As for our beliefs about the Pre-Tribulation Calling out of the Bride, and seven years later to return with HIM as He sets up His Earthly Kingdom, I covered that very thoroughly in my opening post of a thread I started sometime back:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/95283-calling-out-bride-go-wedding-lamb-23.html

I did learn something from you though, you are very definitely NOT Southern Baptist.

☝t<><

If you want to hear why and how we teach The Coming Earthly Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ; here is a link to Dr. John MacArthur's four part Sermon Series by the same title. Dr. John MacArthur is not only the Senior Pastor of Grace Community Church near L.A., but he is also the President of THE MASTER'S COLLEGE and THE MASTER'S SEMINARY.

The Coming Earthly Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, Part 1

PlainWord · Apr 4, 2015

VCO said:

So you think I'm not born again because I refuse to believe your Traditions of Man that make void the very Word of God??? What arrogance!!!! As for the rest of your post, you have showed and proved absolutely NOTHING!!

Dan 7: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...

Can you not see that the Saints are on earth being persecuted by Satan's forces (Islamic jihadists) and that has started already in Iraq and Syria with Christians being slaughtered there, in Egypt, in Kenya, in Libya and other places where we are told it will happen? Nothing tells us that any saint is raptured off to heaven. The only saints in heaven are those who died.

Christians are dying and being beheaded all over the Sea region of Rev 13 now. These are the same people who you cite from Rev 20:4-6. They are not left behind after some rapture, are they???? But you don't see this because you are still here, therefore the Tribulation can't possibly start in your arrogant self-centered mind. Go tell that to those ISIS is beheading.

When does the rapture occur?

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