Hebrew Roots Movement

[just-me]

I have been accused more times than I have fingers and toes of being a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement. Would some one please explain to me who they are and what they do? All I know is that they are hated by many on cc - what is going on?
I want substantial proof - I don't care about assumptions that make no sense to me.

 

[tourist]

I have never heard of such a movement. Is it a good thing or a bad thing to be accused of being part of this movement?

 

[damombomb]

It is keeping the festivals, emphasis on the torah.
Some just believe that you only keep the commandments and your good to go.
But if we are not in fellowship and serving the Lord, we are establishing our own righteousness.
And when they come off at you it seems they are under the law and not grace.
It is about Christ and making disciples.
Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by a preacher, a preacher sent by God.
Then it seems they separate themselves from the church or other believers.
The word say's do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together as some have.
Not to mention they are always pointing fingers at what is wrong with the church, ect. or Paul's teachings
JMO, not directed at anyone.

 

[MarcR]

I have never heard of such a movement. Is it a good thing or a bad thing to be accused of being part of this movement?

IMO a VERY BAD thing.

 

[oldthennew]

who ever they are, let's pray that they are seeking in sincerity and truth.
our prayers should include them, as God doesn't look on the outward appearance,
but upon the heart.

 

[MarcR]

I have been accused more times than I have fingers and toes of being a part of the Hebrew Roots Movement. Would some one please explain to me who they are and what they do? All I know is that they are hated by many on cc - what is going on?
I want substantial proof - I don't care about assumptions that make no sense to me.

1) They believe in replacement theology.

2) they are, IMO, the modern day equivalent of the Judaizers that Paul confronted in Galations; except that they are for the most part NOT JEWISH, and don't understand the Scripture. They do want to put themselves and everyone else under Law; but not necessarily Torah.

3) They teach that Satturday Sabbath keeping is essential to Salvation.

 

[atwhatcost]

Personally, I don't think people can be a part of a movement without being a part of a group having/participating/starting the movement. So, that's why I figure you can't be in Her Royal Majesty... errr, I mean HRM.

But, if you want to figure out what it is, there is Google.

From what I've seen, it looks like that leap comes from your ideology that what was believed in the first century has to be "righter" than what we believe now. On that, we disagree. There wasn't even a full understanding of trinity back then. That took a while to explain what happened when Jesus came, talked about his Father and then talked about the Spirit. All that and yet there is but one God. Still blows our minds today, but although the Bible didn't come to the term "trinity," it also didn't hide there is a trinity. So, I think some folks assume you go whole hog on all HRM stuff, because you really do believe the heresies came along through the centuries. To me, that's leaping to a conclusion to think, just because you think one thing that agrees with any given group of people, you must be within that group of people. That's a leap, simply because the steps in between were completely ignored.

BUT, where I think they're missing it, (or I'm missing it, and just haven't seen you say any of this stuff, but I do usually read what you write, even if I don't respond), is Jesus isn't Yeshua Halmasiach to you, (although I want to slap you lightly for making me have to figure out how to spell those words lol), you don't seem to be big on preaching keeping the Jewish Feasts and customs exactly as the OT says, and you're not into making sure everyone avoids pork, like many of the supposedly Messianic Jews that are more Jewish than Messianic.

Now, personally, I think where we might get more than one goat (as in "get your goat," not as in we're back into properly sacrificing bleating animals lol), is that we still believe the OT commandments still apply. Not so much as in we have to keep them or we aren't saved, but as a way of seeing who God is by how he wants us to behave. So many on here, (and that's more of "a lot" vs. "the vast majority") believe the OT is pretty much wasted space, because none of it counts anymore. (The whole "Jesus killed the Law" vs. "Jesus fulfilled it" debate, that isn't so much a debate, because those who believe he killed it have never studied enough to find out what he really did. They just lap up whatever they're taught, instead of studying for themselves.) So that we believe the OT means much more than "many on here," we must fit into some properly labeled box, if, for no other reason, than others don't have to figure out what we really believe.

In that aspect, I was being both facetious and full-on honest by calling that another form of "Name it and claim it." Something I really wish would stop on here, but honestly? I think that will stop on here the day after that winning lottery ticket does blow into my hand. There is idle wishful thinking and slim chance thinking. That one is probably below the other two. lol

So, that may not help you understand why some want to slam some dumb label on you, but at least you know where a friend stands on the issue. We don't always agree, but friendship never meant we should have to agree.

 

[just-me]

I have never heard of such a movement. Is it a good thing or a bad thing to be accused of being part of this movement?

Evaluating the comments accompanying those accusations, it seems to be a bad thing in the minds of professing Christians.
Thank you for trying to help me.

 

[damombomb]

who ever they are, let's pray that they are seeking in sincerity and truth.
our prayers should include them, as God doesn't look on the outward appearance,
but upon the heart.

Amen, my best friend and Brother believe this way, and i love them. If i need prayer it is my best friend who is right there.

 

[just-me]

IMO a VERY BAD thing.

Thanks. What facts do you base your opinion upon that can be documented by scripture?

 

[atwhatcost]

Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by a preacher, a preacher sent by God.

I really did the rest of what you wrote, but this line kind of stuck out as a to me. Is that what you believe or is that facetious? Maybe describing what someone else believes? (I honestly didn't get it, so my guesses can be 180 degrees from what you said too.)

 

[atwhatcost]

1) They believe in replacement theology.

2) they are, IMO, the modern day equivalent of the Judaizers that Paul confronted in Galations; except that they are for the most part NOT JEWISH, and don't understand the Scripture. They do want to put themselves and everyone else under Law; but not necessarily Torah.

3) They teach that Saturday Sabbath keeping is essential to Salvation.

Hm. I never heard of it before someone started calling JM that. Then to answer JM's question I did a little googling. Out of what I read, I didn't read anything about your third point, so thank you for adding that or I would have continued not knowing that.

 

[oldthennew]

we say friends,

many are on a curve these days and many really don't have a choice of their up-bringing -
but, they are searching and praying and reading and attempting to find the right way -
please, let's not judge them, for they are seeking, and that is all that they can do
at this time.
personally, my wife and I can certainly identify with them, as we both we once in their
very same position.

 

[atwhatcost]

1) They believe in replacement theology.

2) they are, IMO, the modern day equivalent of the Judaizers that Paul confronted in Galations; except that they are for the most part NOT JEWISH, and don't understand the Scripture. They do want to put themselves and everyone else under Law; but not necessarily Torah.

3) They teach that Satturday Sabbath keeping is essential to Salvation.

Thanks. What facts do you base your opinion upon that can be documented by scripture?

Um, how do you evaluate from scripture what simply isn't in the scripture to evaluated?

We know what "replacement theology" means, and the entire scripture is against it.

We know the Law never worked, because of us being unwilling or unable to do that. That's more like the whole theme of the OT, so it would be hard to give scriptural references for the entire theme of a very large book. Kind of like asking for text from Harry Potter to prove it's about a boy wizard.

And we know keeping the Sabbath holy is impossible to begin with without God working in us a heart to do that. So to what purpose is one specific day of the week even a question?

I have no idea how you want Marc to answer you, since he already answered you. Feels kind of like asking to prove God from scripture in the Bible. The entire Bible proves God.

I'm so confused.

 

[just-me]

1) They believe in replacement theology.

2) they are, IMO, the modern day equivalent of the Judaizers that Paul confronted in Galations; except that they are for the most part NOT JEWISH, and don't understand the Scripture. They do want to put themselves and everyone else under Law; but not necessarily Torah.

3) They teach that Satturday Sabbath keeping is essential to Salvation.

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism.

This propagates separation between the Jews and the Gentiles. I believe the opposite. Togetherness in Christ is Biblical, and it also is what Paul revealed to us.

This doesn't sound like Judaism, is sounds like what my Christan accusers are trying to convince me of.

 

[sparkman]

Here's another thread on it where I asked the same questions.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114698-hebrew-roots-movement.html

Apparently it's a diverse group.

There are concerns about some of them who deny the full deity of Jesus Christ, deny the Trinity, and deny the writings of the Apostle Paul. Apparently the tendency is to move toward full-blown Judaism.

Sabbath, Holy Days, and Clean/Unclean meat observances, as well as physical circumcision are a part of the general teachings of this group.

JGIG's links on the other thread are good in this regard. She's spent more time studying them.

My personal history regarding Sabbath/festival observances relates to Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. I am no longer involved with them or observing ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Old Covenant.

 

[just-me]

Personally, I don't think people can be a part of a movement without being a part of a group having/participating/starting the movement. So, that's why I figure you can't be in Her Royal Majesty... errr, I mean HRM.

But, if you want to figure out what it is, there is Google.

From what I've seen, it looks like that leap comes from your ideology that what was believed in the first century has to be "righter" than what we believe now. On that, we disagree. There wasn't even a full understanding of trinity back then. That took a while to explain what happened when Jesus came, talked about his Father and then talked about the Spirit. All that and yet there is but one God. Still blows our minds today, but although the Bible didn't come to the term "trinity," it also didn't hide there is a trinity. So, I think some folks assume you go whole hog on all HRM stuff, because you really do believe the heresies came along through the centuries. To me, that's leaping to a conclusion to think, just because you think one thing that agrees with any given group of people, you must be within that group of people. That's a leap, simply because the steps in between were completely ignored.

I started a thread that refutes heresies called "Protestants follow many Catholic traditions that began during the 1st century" in the Conspiracy & Corruption Discussion Forum. Even on that thread I was accused of being a HRM person time after time.
here is the link

BUT, where I think they're missing it, (or I'm missing it, and just haven't seen you say any of this stuff, but I do usually read what you write, even if I don't respond), is Jesus isn't Yeshua Halmasiach to you, (although I want to slap you lightly for making me have to figure out how to spell those words lol), you don't seem to be big on preaching keeping the Jewish Feasts and customs exactly as the OT says, and you're not into making sure everyone avoids pork, like many of the supposedly Messianic Jews that are more Jewish than Messianic.

Now, personally, I think where we might get more than one goat (as in "get your goat," not as in we're back into properly sacrificing bleating animals lol), is that we still believe the OT commandments still apply. Not so much as in we have to keep them or we aren't saved, but as a way of seeing who God is by how he wants us to behave. So many on here, (and that's more of "a lot" vs. "the vast majority") believe the OT is pretty much wasted space, because none of it counts anymore. (The whole "Jesus killed the Law" vs. "Jesus fulfilled it" debate, that isn't so much a debate, because those who believe he killed it have never studied enough to find out what he really did. They just lap up whatever they're taught, instead of studying for themselves.) So that we believe the OT means much more than "many on here," we must fit into some properly labeled box, if, for no other reason, than others don't have to figure out what we really believe.

In that aspect, I was being both facetious and full-on honest by calling that another form of "Name it and claim it." Something I really wish would stop on here, but honestly? I think that will stop on here the day after that winning lottery ticket does blow into my hand. There is idle wishful thinking and slim chance thinking. That one is probably below the other two. lol

So, that may not help you understand why some want to slam some dumb label on you, but at least you know where a friend stands on the issue. We don't always agree, but friendship never meant we should have to agree.

 

[oldthennew]

a man may teach us, but the Holy Spirit will envelope us at some point...but, to possess the maturity
to tell the difference is the key to our continued growth and confidence.

when a teacher appoints one to take on the responsibility of a God-filled-fearing-Church and they
return to the world's ways, the choices that are presented must be the test of who they will honor -

 

[just-me]

Here's another thread on it where I asked the same questions.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114698-hebrew-roots-movement.html

Apparently it's a diverse group.

There are concerns about some of them who deny the full deity of Jesus Christ, deny the Trinity, and deny the writings of the Apostle Paul. Apparently the tendency is to move toward full-blown Judaism.

Sabbath, Holy Days, and Clean/Unclean meat observances, as well as physical circumcision are a part of the general teachings of this group.

JGIG's links on the other thread are good in this regard. She's spent more time studying them.

My personal history regarding Sabbath/festival observances relates to Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. I am no longer involved with them or observing ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Old Covenant.

Denying Christ and the 3 in 1 unit with God, the Spirit of Got and Jesus who is fully endowed with His Father's Spirit ids really bad news to me.
Observing the law minus the Spirit of truth, but only in the flesh is far from attaining salvation. That certainly isn't the key! I observe the writings of the Old Testament, but I don't physically do the rituals. I would however like to hear the spiritual application form a Messianic who does that and get their input. the law is Spiritual, good, just and holy. So that's the way I see it all.

 

[Elin]

Personally, I don't think people can be a part of a movement without being a part of a group having/participating/starting the movement. So, that's why I figure you can't be in Her Royal Majesty... errr, I mean HRM.

But, if you want to figure out what it is, there is Google.

From what I've seen, it looks like that leap comes from your ideology that what was believed in the first century has to be "righter" than what we believe now. On that, we disagree. There wasn't even a full understanding of trinity back then. That took a while to explain what happened when Jesus came, talked about his Father and then talked about the Spirit. All that and yet there is but one God. Still blows our minds today, but although the Bible didn't come to the term "trinity," it also didn't hide there is a trinity. So, I think some folks assume you go whole hog on all HRM stuff, because you really do believe the heresies came along through the centuries. To me, that's leaping to a conclusion to think, just because you think one thing that agrees with any given group of people, you must be within that group of people. That's a leap, simply because the steps in between were completely ignored.

BUT, where I think they're missing it, (or I'm missing it, and just haven't seen you say any of this stuff, but I do usually read what you write, even if I don't respond), is Jesus isn't Yeshua Halmasiach to you, (although I want to slap you lightly for making me have to figure out how to spell those words lol), you don't seem to be big on preaching keeping the Jewish Feasts and customs exactly as the OT says, and you're not into making sure everyone avoids pork, like many of the supposedly Messianic Jews that are more Jewish than Messianic.

Now, personally, I think where we might get more than one goat (as in "get your goat," not as in we're back into properly sacrificing bleating animals lol), is that we still believe the OT commandments still apply. Not so much as in we have to keep them or we aren't saved, but as a way of seeing who God is by how he wants us to behave. So many on here, (and that's more of "a lot" vs. "the vast majority") believe the OT is pretty much wasted space, because none of it counts anymore. (The whole "Jesus killed the Law" vs. "Jesus fulfilled it" debate, that isn't so much a debate, because those who believe he killed it have never studied enough to find out what he really did. They just lap up whatever they're taught, instead of studying for themselves.) So that we believe the OT means much more than "many on here," we must fit into some properly labeled box, if, for no other reason, than others don't have to figure out what we really believe.

In that aspect, I was being both facetious and full-on honest by calling that another form of "Name it and claim it." Something I really wish would stop on here, but honestly? I think that will stop on here the day after that winning lottery ticket does blow into my hand. There is idle wishful thinking and slim chance thinking. That one is probably below the other two. lol

So, that may not help you understand why some want to slam some dumb label on you, but at least you know where a friend stands on the issue. We don't always agree, but friendship never meant we should have to agree.

Keeping in mind that to lable the doctrine whose purpose is to discredit NT Christianity is not to label the person who subscribes to aspects of it.

That's a convenient way to blur the important distinction.