Hebrew Roots Movement

[Elin]

Evaluating the comments accompanying those accusations, it seems to be a bad thing in the minds of professing Christians.

Yep. . .and it seeks to discredit NT Christianity in an effort to establish its own standing.

You likewise seek to discredit NT Christianity by maintaining it is based on the thinking of Origen, Marcion and Tertullian, rather than on the NT writings.

Your commonality with it is the attempt to discredit NT Christianity.

 

[just-me]

1) They believe in replacement theology.

2) they are, IMO, the modern day equivalent of the Judaizers that Paul confronted in Galations; except that they are for the most part NOT JEWISH, and don't understand the Scripture. They do want to put themselves and everyone else under Law; but not necessarily Torah.

3) They teach that Satturday Sabbath keeping is essential to Salvation.

Saturday is according to a Gregorian calendar, and so is Sunday, so if we understand the heresies of the Roman Catholics when it was first organized, there should be not depute over Saturday, for neither Saturday or Sunday can be labeled as the 7th day by anybody who doesn't know the Hebrew calendar. I don't know what day a weekly Sabbath is, and even if I did it doesn't bring me to righteousness, let alone salvation.

 

[Elin]

Um, how do you evaluate from scripture what simply isn't in the scripture to evaluated?

We know what "replacement theology" means, and the entire scripture is against it.

Are you referring to Mt 21:43?

The Church is the fulfillment of the true Israel--the fulfillment of the promise to Israel to rebuilt David's tent (Am 9:11-12) in God taking to himself a people from the Gentiles (Ac 15:18-18).

 

[Elin]

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism.

This propagates separation between the Jews and the Gentiles.

You are quite confused regarding propagation of the separation of believing Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Elin]

I started a thread that refutes heresies called "Protestants follow many Catholic traditions that began during the 1st century" in the Conspiracy & Corruption Discussion Forum. Even on that thread I was accused of being a HRM person time after time.

Yes, that is the thread where you seek to discredit NT Christianity as does the HRM.

 

[just-me]

Yep. . .and it seeks to discredit NT Christianity in an effort to establish its own standing.

You likewise seek to discredit NT Christianity by maintaining it is based on the thinking of Origen, Marcion and Tertullian, rather than on the NT writings.

Your commonality with it is the attempt to discredit NT Christianity.

You are so out of touch and never realized the thread about those three persons I mentioned. They were people who influenced the founding of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Pentecostals, and all the way through the thread of I started, I refute all that they endorsed. You're good at turning things upside-down. I mentioned Ignatius instead of Origen in the OP.

http://christianchat.com/conspiracy...olic-traditions-began-during-1st-century.html

Let me quote a few passages of what I wrote about them so that you will reconnoiter (hopefully) as you are one that has accused me the most of belonging to the HRM

Ignatius pioneered the Greek-based Christian religion. He was very instrumental in the assimilation of paganism into early Christianity, and packaged Christianity for a Greco-Roman Hellenic culture.

In his letter to the Philadelphians, Ignatius writes.........

But if anyone propound Judaism unto you, hear him not; for it is better to hear Christianity from a man who is circumcised than Judaism from one uncircumcised.
But if either the one or the other speak not concerning Jesus Christ, I look on them as tombstones and graves of the dead, whereon are inscribed only the names of men.
Shun ye therefore the wicked arts and plottings of the prince of this world, lest haply ye be crushed by his devices, and wax weak in your love.

In his letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ignatius writes.........

They allow not that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up.

In his letter to Polycarp, Ignatius writes.........

Give ye heed to the bishop, that God also may give heed to you. I am devoted to those who are subject to the bishop, the presbyters, and deacons. (end quote)

In this letter Ignatius gives directives to Polycarp who is in the historical record for passionately resisting the Ishtar (Easter) celebration of Gentile Christians. Polycarp made a special trip to Rome to exhort the Church to continue observing Pesach (Passover) according to the Torah. Polycarp and Ignatius appear to be in two very different camps, yet it seems Ignatius is on a letter writing campaign to make himself as an authority of the church and install himself as a key element (or perhaps was painted into this caricature by later Catholic theologians). Nevertheless, the writings of Ignatius are one of the earliest defects to the original teachings of Christ (Messiah) and Paul, regardless as to how his letters may have been manipulated to suit the founders of the Catholic Church. The fact of the matter is that church hierarchy, massive cathedrals, wickedness within the church leadership, and outright malice against Torah had to start somewhere, and the evidence clearly points to such men at this time in history.

I have quoted enough, but all these people were influential in incorporating paganism into the Catholic universal religion. None were good people or anybody that I would agree with, and you say that I “discredit NT Christianity by maintaining it is based on the thinking of Origen, Marcion and Tertullian, rather than on the NT writings.”

Ignatius, Marcion, and Tertullian were all heretics to say the least.

 

[Elin]

You are so out of touch and never realized the thread about those three persons I mentioned. They were people who influenced the founding of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Pentecostals, and all the way through the thread of I started, I refute all that they endorsed. You're good at turning things upside-down. I mentioned Ignatius instead of Origen in the OP.

http://christianchat.com/conspiracy...olic-traditions-began-during-1st-century.html

Let me quote a few passages of what I wrote about them so that you will reconnoiter (hopefully) as you are one that has accused me the most of belonging to the HRM




I have quoted enough, but all these people were influential in incorporating paganism into the Catholic universal religion. None were good people or anybody that I would agree with, and you say that I “discredit NT Christianity by maintaining it is based on the thinking of Origen, Marcion and Tertullian, rather than on the NT writings.”

Ignatius, Marcion, and Tertullian were all heretics to say the least.

There is no assimilation of paganism into NT Christianity.

What is the relevance of the quote on Judaism by Ignatius?

Everyone knows Catholicism believes in the rea lpresence of the Eucharist.
What does that have to do with NT Christianity?

Your agenda is revealed in your following statement:

"The fact of the matter is that church hierarchy, massive cathedrals, wickedness within the church leadership, and outright malice against Torah had to start somewhere, and the evidence clearly points to such men at this time in history. "

NT Christianity is not based on Ignatius, Marcion and Tertullian.
It is based in the NT writings.

You seek to discredit NT Christianity because it makes the reality of Christ its focus rather than the shadows of the law.

 

[JGIG]

There is no short answer to the OP's question, but Judaizing Sect is the best short description of the movement. Most who identify with the beliefs and practices of the HRM choose not to or refuse to label themselves, either because they think themselves to be of 'pure 1st century religion' or because they know the HRM and other Law-keeping sects are piling up divisions and rotten fruit worse than they accuse the rest of the Body of having.

Years ago I was part of a Mom's Digest, MOMYS (mothers of many young siblings), which for several years was a great blessing with shared wisdom and advice about large family logistics.

Then Judaizing theology crept in.

Law-keeping MOMYS went from posting, "We have been so blessed in our family because we do this (Feast, Sabbath, and dietary law keeping, along with tzitzit wearing, observing niddah, husbands not cutting facial hair, wearing clothing of only one thread, etc."

To posting, "We do this to show God that we love and honor Him."

To posting, "If you really love God you should be doing all of these things, too."

To posting, "if you don't do these things you really don't love God."

To posting, "If you don't do these things, you either really aren't saved or you will lose your salvation."


Some other characteristics in the Judaizing sects, including but not limited to the HRM:

• Little to mention of the Work of Christ - LOTS of mention about our work to maintain/prove salvation.
• They teach that the fruit of salvation is the observing of the commandments given at Sinai, and they strive to exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, most of which they in reality don't exhibit, but rather great spiritual pride and arrogance, unrest, harshness, and verbal tirades. You can browse through un-moderated discussions on social media and blogs to see that this is true. Many Law-keepers eventually get banned on moderated venues for either bad behavior, posting blatant heresy, or both.
• I've received MANY emails from spouses of Law-keepers who relay drastic personality changes along the lines of the pride, arrogance, unrest, harshness, and verbal tirades variety in their Law-keeping husband/wife if the Christian spouse does not submit to the new Law-keeping paradigm. Where children are involved, there is MUCH unrest and confusion. Many marriages, I'm sorry to report, end in separation and/or divorce. One Law-keeper's wife wrote this wonderful testimony of God's Grace in her and her children's lives in the midst of living with her Law-keeping husband (one of the most-read posts at JGIG): A Hebrew Roots Wife Speaks

• A constant tearing down of Christianity (see Hebrew Roots Movement – Salesmanship 101 for more on this topic)
• They teach that Christian traditions are 'pagan' worship (see Ralph Woodrow's excellent rebuttal in "The Babylon Connection?")
• They teach that the Bible MUST be viewed through an Hebraic lens to be properly understood (see Hebrew Roots Movement – The Issue of “Hellenization” for more on this topic)
• The HRM in particular teach that Yeshua/Jesus is the 'Living Torah', reducing Christ down to a written history/code and elevating Torah to Godhood.
• As mentioned by MarcR, they teach mandatory Sabbath-keeping for salvation, along with other, cherry-picked laws.

That scratches the surface .

Exposed to and studying this belief system and its fruits since 2006 and writing about it since 2008, you can learn more here:

Joyfully Growing In Grace​

There are lots of links and resources along with articles there examining the HRM and other Law-keeping sects. The goal there has been to help the believer to sort out what they're seeing and building them up in who they are in Christ.

Other articles of interest on this topic at JGIG:

• Hebrew Roots Movement – Are They Judaizers?
• Believers in the Hebrew Roots Movement: Are They Lost?
• Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley
• 12 Undeniable Truths That Drive Law ‘Keepers’ Crazy
• How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement

I'm thankful to say that I've seen a plateauing of growth in the HRM in the last year or so, partly due to growing awareness in the Body, more pastors preaching the Gospel of Grace message without a mixture of Law, and the continued demonstration of bad fruit in the Hebrew Roots Movement.

I hope that helps to clarify.

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

 

[just-me]

referring to this post
Ignatius, Marcion, and Tertullian all instigated a religion that endorsed there false religion (their Church) to be the mediator between God and man, and taking Jesus Christ out of the equation as the real Mediator. There is no replacement for Jesus Christ!!!! If that's HRM thinking, I will answer to God Almighty at the day of judgment!

 

[JGIG]

1) They believe in replacement theology.

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism.

This propagates separation between the Jews and the Gentiles. I believe the opposite. Togetherness in Christ is Biblical, and it also is what Paul revealed to us.

This doesn't sound like Judaism, is sounds like what my Christan accusers are trying to convince me of.

Replacement Theology is indeed a theology, and not what HRMers teach.

They teach instead a Hebraicised version of British Israelism - that believers BECOME Israel (and consequently subject to Her Law), not that they replace it.

This issues is dealt with exhaustively here:

• Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement - An Examination of 'Identity Crisis' and Related Teachings of Jim Staley

Staley's teaching on the subject is representative of the Two House/Ephraimite Doctrine common in the HRM, and the information found in the above article is comprehensive, addressing what one will find pretty universally in HRM teaching.

Another comprehensive article addressing the issue of Who or What we're grafted into as believers in Christ:

• Hebrew Roots Movement - Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.

-JGIG

 

[sparkman]

Can you tell me if HRM was affected a lot by Armstrongism and Worldwide Church of God?

One thing that seems to be different about them is that they are more evangelistic than Worldwide Church of God was under Armstrong.

For a Christian who is struggling with this issue, I would suggest reading Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. He covers the difference between the Old and New Covenant in a very clear manner. I may disagree on a few minor points but overall his book is great.

Here's a thread that I posted regarding this tendency of persecuting Christians who are non-Sabbathkeepers here on the forum, along with a Scriptural trail that shows the Judaizers did the same thing to Paul and Gentile Christians:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-old-covenant-observance-causes-division.html

There is no short answer to the OP's question, but Judaizing Sect is the best short description of the movement. Most who identify with the beliefs and practices of the HRM choose not to or refuse to label themselves, either because they think themselves to be of 'pure 1st century religion' or because they know the HRM and other Law-keeping sects are piling up divisions and rotten fruit worse than they accuse the rest of the Body of having.

Years ago I was part of a Mom's Digest, MOMYS (mothers of many young siblings), which for several years was a great blessing with shared wisdom and advice about large family logistics.

Then Judaizing theology crept in.

Law-keeping MOMYS went from posting, "We have been so blessed in our family because we do this (Feast, Sabbath, and dietary law keeping, along with tzitzit wearing, observing niddah, husbands not cutting facial hair, wearing clothing of only one thread, etc."

To posting, "We do this to show God that we love and honor Him."

To posting, "If you really love God you should be doing all of these things, too."

To posting, "if you don't do these things you really don't love God."

To posting, "If you don't do these things, you either really aren't saved or you will lose your salvation."


Some other characteristics in the Judaizing sects, including but not limited to the HRM:

• Little to mention of the Work of Christ - LOTS of mention about our work to maintain/prove salvation.
• They teach that the fruit of salvation is the observing of the commandments given at Sinai, and they strive to exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, most of which they in reality don't exhibit, but rather great spiritual pride and arrogance, unrest, harshness, and verbal tirades. You can browse through un-moderated discussions on social media and blogs to see that this is true. Many Law-keepers eventually get banned on moderated venues for either bad behavior, posting blatant heresy, or both.
• I've received MANY emails from spouses of Law-keepers who relay drastic personality changes along the lines of the pride, arrogance, unrest, harshness, and verbal tirades variety in their Law-keeping husband/wife if the Christian spouse does not submit to the new Law-keeping paradigm. Where children are involved, there is MUCH unrest and confusion. Many marriages, I'm sorry to report, end in separation and/or divorce. One Law-keeper's wife wrote this wonderful testimony of God's Grace in her and her children's lives in the midst of living with her Law-keeping husband (one of the most-read posts at JGIG): A Hebrew Roots Wife Speaks

• A constant tearing down of Christianity (see Hebrew Roots Movement – Salesmanship 101 for more on this topic)
• They teach that Christian traditions are 'pagan' worship (see Ralph Woodrow's excellent rebuttal in "The Babylon Connection?")
• They teach that the Bible MUST be viewed through an Hebraic lens to be properly understood (see Hebrew Roots Movement – The Issue of “Hellenization” for more on this topic)
• The HRM in particular teach that Yeshua/Jesus is the 'Living Torah', reducing Christ down to a written history/code and elevating Torah to Godhood.
• As mentioned by MarcR, they teach mandatory Sabbath-keeping for salvation, along with other, cherry-picked laws.

That scratches the surface .

Exposed to and studying this belief system and its fruits since 2006 and writing about it since 2008, you can learn more here:

Joyfully Growing In Grace​

There are lots of links and resources along with articles there examining the HRM and other Law-keeping sects. The goal there has been to help the believer to sort out what they're seeing and building them up in who they are in Christ.

Other articles of interest on this topic at JGIG:

• Hebrew Roots Movement – Are They Judaizers?
• Believers in the Hebrew Roots Movement: Are They Lost?
• Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley
• 12 Undeniable Truths That Drive Law ‘Keepers’ Crazy
• How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement

I'm thankful to say that I've seen a plateauing of growth in the HRM in the last year or so, partly due to growing awareness in the Body, more pastors preaching the Gospel of Grace message without a mixture of Law, and the continued demonstration of bad fruit in the Hebrew Roots Movement.

I hope that helps to clarify.

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

 

[Angela53510]

Another sign of HRM is thinking that the New Testament was written in Hebrew or Aramaic. They think that is God's "pure" language, so although there is NO manuscript evidence whatsoever, they keep harping that it "must have " been in those languages.

In fact, Greek was the language spoken throughout the Middle East and even used by the Romans. Even Jesus must have spoken it, because when he spoke to Pilate, there is no recording of a translator.

Plus, God used the Greek as one of the ways to get the gospel to the known world. Since everyone spoke Greek, the New Testament used that language to spread the gospel rapidly throughout the world.

Even the Jews translated the Old Testament into Greek (LXX) because so few Jews actually spoke Hebrew.

 

[JGIG]

Here's another thread on it where I asked the same questions.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114698-hebrew-roots-movement.html

Apparently it's a diverse group.

There are concerns about some of them who deny the full deity of Jesus Christ, deny the Trinity, and deny the writings of the Apostle Paul. Apparently the tendency is to move toward full-blown Judaism.

Sabbath, Holy Days, and Clean/Unclean meat observances, as well as physical circumcision are a part of the general teachings of this group.

JGIG's links on the other thread are good in this regard. She's spent more time studying them.

My personal history regarding Sabbath/festival observances relates to Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. I am no longer involved with them or observing ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Old Covenant.

Lots of doctrine in the HRM comes from the WWCOG. Some also from The Way, International (the Michael Rood sect), and they also glean from SDA and even Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism to a degree.

A mixed-bag indeed.

-JGIG

 

[sparkman]

All it would take is about a 2 hour sermon to expose a new Christian to the errors in such theology and they would be inoculated. In my case, my mother was a member of WCG and I thought they were more "intellectual" than other churches in our area. Other churches were portrayed as bumbling incompetent pagans by WCG...too bad we didn't have the wide variety of access to good, sound teaching like we have now. I guess it works both ways though..cults use technology to their advantage too.

Lots of doctrine in the HRM comes from the WWCOG. Some also from The Way, International (the Michael Rood sect), and they also glean from SDA and even Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism to a degree.

A mixed-bag indeed.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Saturday is according to a Gregorian calendar, and so is Sunday, so if we understand the heresies of the Roman Catholics when it was first organized, there should be not depute over Saturday, for neither Saturday or Sunday can be labeled as the 7th day by anybody who doesn't know the Hebrew calendar. I don't know what day a weekly Sabbath is, and even if I did it doesn't bring me to righteousness, let alone salvation.

If you're not HRM, you really should look into it - you'd find a LOT of like-minded folks there ! You're preaching the same stuff.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

All it would take is about a 2 hour sermon to expose a new Christian to the errors in such theology and they would be inoculated. In my case, my mother was a member of WCG and I thought they were more "intellectual" than other churches in our area. Other churches were portrayed as bumbling incompetent pagans by WCG...too bad we didn't have the wide variety of access to good, sound teaching like we have now. I guess it works both ways though..cults use technology to their advantage too.

While there is some value in pointing out error, I've found that simply teaching the simple Truths of the Gospel of the Work of Christ and who we are in Him.

That's what gets people free and KEEPS them free \o/!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

You are so out of touch and never realized the thread about those three persons I mentioned. They were people who influenced the founding of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Pentecostals, and all the way through the thread of I started, I refute all that they endorsed. You're good at turning things upside-down. I mentioned Ignatius instead of Origen in the OP.

http://christianchat.com/conspiracy...olic-traditions-began-during-1st-century.html

Let me quote a few passages of what I wrote about them so that you will reconnoiter (hopefully) as you are one that has accused me the most of belonging to the HRM




I have quoted enough, but all these people were influential in incorporating paganism into the Catholic universal religion. None were good people or anybody that I would agree with, and you say that I “discredit NT Christianity by maintaining it is based on the thinking of Origen, Marcion and Tertullian, rather than on the NT writings.”

Ignatius, Marcion, and Tertullian were all heretics to say the least.

So what.

You're right; it doesn't make any difference what those guys said.

It matters what Scripture says.

And your Law-keeping theology does not stand up to a plain reading of the New Covenant Scriptures.

It's just that simple.

​-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

You are so out of touch and never realized the thread about those three persons I mentioned. They were people who influenced the founding of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Pentecostals, and all the way through the thread of I started, I refute all that they endorsed. You're good at turning things upside-down. I mentioned Ignatius instead of Origen in the OP.

http://christianchat.com/conspiracy...olic-traditions-began-during-1st-century.html

Let me quote a few passages of what I wrote about them so that you will reconnoiter (hopefully) as you are one that has accused me the most of belonging to the HRM




I have quoted enough, but all these people were influential in incorporating paganism into the Catholic universal religion. None were good people or anybody that I would agree with, and you say that I “discredit NT Christianity by maintaining it is based on the thinking of Origen, Marcion and Tertullian, rather than on the NT writings.”

Ignatius, Marcion, and Tertullian were all heretics to say the least.

So what.

It doesn't matter what those guys said/wrote; it matters what a plain reading of Scripture says, yes?

And a plain reading of Scripture does not support a Law-keeping paradigm.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

referring to this post
Ignatius, Marcion, and Tertullian all instigated a religion that endorsed there false religion (their Church) to be the mediator between God and man, and taking Jesus Christ out of the equation as the real Mediator. There is no replacement for Jesus Christ!!!! If that's HRM thinking, I will answer to God Almighty at the day of judgment!

You're equating the Body of Christ with Roman Catholicism.

That is error.

If you really do believe that Christ of the Tribe of Judah is your Mediator, then you have died to the Law and its Levitical priesthood.

Welcome to the New Covenant! \o/

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Can you tell me if HRM was affected a lot by Armstrongism and Worldwide Church of God?

Oh, absolutely, as stated in a comment above. I know of one HRM teacher who fancies himself the 'new and improved' Herbert Armstrong.

One thing that seems to be different about them is that they are more evangelistic than Worldwide Church of God was under Armstrong.

Only among other Christians. They seek to put other believers under the Law; they spend almost NO TIME attempting to reach the Lost.

-JGIG