For those who say they were saved before they spoke in tongues....
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Extreme caution, Brother. I know I used to be less wheat and more tare, but by the grace of God, I am now wheat, and am extremely passionate about defending the weak against those who attempt to shut out the Kingdom of God against others. That's the Pharisees' calling card, shutting out the Kingdom, and I don't stand for it.
A
Lord, thank you for this thread. Thank you for the true conviction of your kids, even RobOp, who said nothing but said all that was needed to be said. And thank you for what you're teaching us daily. I am a slow-learner, but you are an ever patient teacher. Thank you for that.
Please bring Saint_John to your salvation and teach him the true you and the true words you gave us. Please calm him mind. Something is seriously wrong with it, but I know you can calm even the most troubled mind.
And please keep on teaching us your only lesson -- to trust in you. It seems I'm not the only slow learner, but I do understand how hard it is to get off self and into you. I didn't take the bait this time. I know that's all on you, because, yo, note I'm here now checking this out. So thank you for your timing. Mostly, Lord, could you give us all a better sense that we are brothers, we are your kids, and you are everything. Help us to stop needling each other constantly. I know we're supposed to be united. Could you please get us there?
And, yeah. I know that means to learn patience, and you know how much I hate that concept, but I don't see any way around to getting to you without getting that same patience you keep plastering onto me. So, please give us all that annoying patience thingy, until it stops being annoying and becomes a comfort.
Amen.
Please bring Saint_John to your salvation and teach him the true you and the true words you gave us. Please calm him mind. Something is seriously wrong with it, but I know you can calm even the most troubled mind.
And please keep on teaching us your only lesson -- to trust in you. It seems I'm not the only slow learner, but I do understand how hard it is to get off self and into you. I didn't take the bait this time. I know that's all on you, because, yo, note I'm here now checking this out. So thank you for your timing. Mostly, Lord, could you give us all a better sense that we are brothers, we are your kids, and you are everything. Help us to stop needling each other constantly. I know we're supposed to be united. Could you please get us there?
And, yeah. I know that means to learn patience, and you know how much I hate that concept, but I don't see any way around to getting to you without getting that same patience you keep plastering onto me. So, please give us all that annoying patience thingy, until it stops being annoying and becomes a comfort.
Amen.
Reading through the last pages of this thread, seeing the OP is banned, but a few others have risen in his place to hold the torch of tongues being a necessary sign of salvation, I am struck with an incredible inconsistency. That being that the deep, internal relationship with God, requires an external sign, instead of the inner witness of the Holy Spirit!
When I was saved in the front seat of an old Blazer, God spoke to be so clearly about who he was, his love for not just me but the whole world (John 3:16) and the repentance he required of me. The entire thing was so overwhelming, so amazing, and so "memorable" for want of a better world. I didn't need some external sign to prove I was saved. In fact, it was only when I started attending charismatic churches I was told that my walk with Christ needed tongues. So I mimicked and never grew in my salvation, depending upon an external sign, instead of the inner, secure knowledge that I was safe with Christ.
The "sign" of my salvation was the knowledge of God, his saving grace and his indwelling Spirit from the moment God saved me and onwards, and the Holy Spirt, who leads and guides me. There was no doubt, and never has been from that moment on. So the only thing a true believer needs is a relationship with Jesus Christ! Salvation is a matter of the heart. (And I did immediately confess my belief with my mouth, to my future husband who was sitting next to me in that SUV)
"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:-10
Yet people here keep saying they need to have some kind of external sign of salvation, like speaking in tongues before they are saved. That their walk with Christ wasn't "full" or "complete" or something. Correct me if I am wrong.
Then there is the extremist fringe that misquotes the Bible to say that signs is the INITIAL sign of being saved. No tongues, you are not saved! Which just flatly contradicts so many Scriptures. (Eph. 2:8-9; Acts 16:31; John 3:16. Even Acts 2:28, which charismatics love to quote, only saves that salvation means the believer receives the Holy Spirit - no signs required!)
So are those people who demands this second blessing not really saved, and when they speak in tongues, perhaps that is when they truly encounter God for the first time and are saved? I'm not saying they haven't confessed with their mouth, but maybe their heart was not truly changed?
Perhaps their experience of being saved, knowing God, coincided with an external sign? But that is not the same for everyone, and having lived through that doctrinal nightmare, I really want people to examine their Bible, and see if their experience really is Scriptural, or is the outward sign actually a detriment to their continued growth in the Holy Spirit and being sanctified.
When I was saved in the front seat of an old Blazer, God spoke to be so clearly about who he was, his love for not just me but the whole world (John 3:16) and the repentance he required of me. The entire thing was so overwhelming, so amazing, and so "memorable" for want of a better world. I didn't need some external sign to prove I was saved. In fact, it was only when I started attending charismatic churches I was told that my walk with Christ needed tongues. So I mimicked and never grew in my salvation, depending upon an external sign, instead of the inner, secure knowledge that I was safe with Christ.
The "sign" of my salvation was the knowledge of God, his saving grace and his indwelling Spirit from the moment God saved me and onwards, and the Holy Spirt, who leads and guides me. There was no doubt, and never has been from that moment on. So the only thing a true believer needs is a relationship with Jesus Christ! Salvation is a matter of the heart. (And I did immediately confess my belief with my mouth, to my future husband who was sitting next to me in that SUV)
"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:-10
Yet people here keep saying they need to have some kind of external sign of salvation, like speaking in tongues before they are saved. That their walk with Christ wasn't "full" or "complete" or something. Correct me if I am wrong.
Then there is the extremist fringe that misquotes the Bible to say that signs is the INITIAL sign of being saved. No tongues, you are not saved! Which just flatly contradicts so many Scriptures. (Eph. 2:8-9; Acts 16:31; John 3:16. Even Acts 2:28, which charismatics love to quote, only saves that salvation means the believer receives the Holy Spirit - no signs required!)
So are those people who demands this second blessing not really saved, and when they speak in tongues, perhaps that is when they truly encounter God for the first time and are saved? I'm not saying they haven't confessed with their mouth, but maybe their heart was not truly changed?
Perhaps their experience of being saved, knowing God, coincided with an external sign? But that is not the same for everyone, and having lived through that doctrinal nightmare, I really want people to examine their Bible, and see if their experience really is Scriptural, or is the outward sign actually a detriment to their continued growth in the Holy Spirit and being sanctified.
Thanks for the great question.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. He didn’t need evidence of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is HIS Spirit. Whereas we do need evidence of the Holy Spirit because we need to know that we are born again.
[FONT="]We can only become more like Jesus by receiving His Spirit.
[/FONT]Jesus in the Gospels was often telling His disciples about a future event, that the Comforter, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Christ, was going to be poured out among them. This had never happened before, and it was going to change everything. They didn’t know what it meant at the time but they sure knew it when it happened later at Pentecost, when many spoke in tongues.
So Jesus had told them of this beforehand here in John 14Vs 26
“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
And again here beforehand in Luke 24:49 the disciples are told this “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
This promise of the Father then, is the same as in John 14:26, and in Luke 24:49…and we see that this promise is accompanied by power.
We know that the Holy Spirit was not poured out BEFORE Pentecost because of this early information, Jesus speaking in John 7:38 “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
So we see that the requirement is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and that to them that truly believe, there will be certain signs following….when the Holy Ghost is poured out.
Mark 16 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
The disciples were prepared for what happened in Acts 2 because Jesus had prepared them as far as He COULD prepare them, before they experienced it themselves.
Acts 2:1-4
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
When this all happened, there were many onlookers who mocked the tongues, and said they were drunk, not understanding it though it was right in front of them. So Peter had to stand up and address the crowds and tell them that it was already prophesied by the Old Testament prophet Joel, chapter 2, 28-29 so that they understood it was not something that was out of the will of God. You can read what Peter said to the crowd in Acts 2.
Now this phenomenon that God gave us at that amazing Pentecost gathering was the pouring out of His Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Christ…all one and the selfsame Spirit…and one significant manifestation was they spoke in tongues.
Peter had to show the mockers that what they were seeing was the promise of the Father shed forth by Jesus
Vs 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost,
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
…and … vs36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
At this they were pricked in their heart, knowing they all had their part in His death, and wanted to know what they could do.
Vs 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The promise is not taken back.
It is the same for us now as it was for them.
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. He didn’t need evidence of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is HIS Spirit. Whereas we do need evidence of the Holy Spirit because we need to know that we are born again.
[FONT="]We can only become more like Jesus by receiving His Spirit.
[/FONT]Jesus in the Gospels was often telling His disciples about a future event, that the Comforter, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Christ, was going to be poured out among them. This had never happened before, and it was going to change everything. They didn’t know what it meant at the time but they sure knew it when it happened later at Pentecost, when many spoke in tongues.
So Jesus had told them of this beforehand here in John 14Vs 26
“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
And again here beforehand in Luke 24:49 the disciples are told this “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
This promise of the Father then, is the same as in John 14:26, and in Luke 24:49…and we see that this promise is accompanied by power.
We know that the Holy Spirit was not poured out BEFORE Pentecost because of this early information, Jesus speaking in John 7:38 “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
So we see that the requirement is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and that to them that truly believe, there will be certain signs following….when the Holy Ghost is poured out.
Mark 16 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
The disciples were prepared for what happened in Acts 2 because Jesus had prepared them as far as He COULD prepare them, before they experienced it themselves.
Acts 2:1-4
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
When this all happened, there were many onlookers who mocked the tongues, and said they were drunk, not understanding it though it was right in front of them. So Peter had to stand up and address the crowds and tell them that it was already prophesied by the Old Testament prophet Joel, chapter 2, 28-29 so that they understood it was not something that was out of the will of God. You can read what Peter said to the crowd in Acts 2.
Now this phenomenon that God gave us at that amazing Pentecost gathering was the pouring out of His Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Christ…all one and the selfsame Spirit…and one significant manifestation was they spoke in tongues.
Peter had to show the mockers that what they were seeing was the promise of the Father shed forth by Jesus
Vs 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost,
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
…and … vs36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
At this they were pricked in their heart, knowing they all had their part in His death, and wanted to know what they could do.
Vs 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The promise is not taken back.
It is the same for us now as it was for them.
Posthuman said
"let's not get starry eyed at the thought of mystery and forget that he says he wold rather speak 5 intelligible words than a thousand words that don't benefit anyone who hears them.
& he doesn't say that he speaks in unknown tongues - he only says he'd rather not. sure and you can take that as an implication that he does, but it's not what the text says."
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Paul speaking. Does he know by experience what praying in an unknown tongue is? You tell me.
"let's not get starry eyed at the thought of mystery and forget that he says he wold rather speak 5 intelligible words than a thousand words that don't benefit anyone who hears them.
& he doesn't say that he speaks in unknown tongues - he only says he'd rather not. sure and you can take that as an implication that he does, but it's not what the text says."
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Paul speaking. Does he know by experience what praying in an unknown tongue is? You tell me.
G
For me this is just more evidence that biblical tongues have ceased.
Tongues~~the least of the gifts~~If another believer questions this "least of a gift" and is in danger of hell fire for it. If it divides that strongly..........they have ceased.
1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
from the Greek the phrase is literally " not man to speak but God" And "but speak God" is the dative of advantage..........what is being spoken is for Gods Glory or for His advantage.
Everybody around was clueless to what was being said, except for the interpreter and the unbeliever it was directed to. It was a mystery to everybody around, and the person speaking in tongues was doing it through the filling of the Spirit. And the gospel is a mystery to that unbeliever, and It is revealed to them.
Tongues~~the least of the gifts~~If another believer questions this "least of a gift" and is in danger of hell fire for it. If it divides that strongly..........they have ceased.
1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
from the Greek the phrase is literally " not man to speak but God" And "but speak God" is the dative of advantage..........what is being spoken is for Gods Glory or for His advantage.
Everybody around was clueless to what was being said, except for the interpreter and the unbeliever it was directed to. It was a mystery to everybody around, and the person speaking in tongues was doing it through the filling of the Spirit. And the gospel is a mystery to that unbeliever, and It is revealed to them.
P
Your latest post was 129. I am not interested in reading fluff from you, and until you can directly answer the questions I posed, I will take that as a sign that you can't. Therefore, the rest of your posts have the same amount of credibility - zero.
Answer the questions I posed directly or admit that you adhere to a false doctrine.
If you are truthful the word will support you. Answer.
Answer the questions I posed directly or admit that you adhere to a false doctrine.
If you are truthful the word will support you. Answer.
The Bible tells us that there are fruits of the Spirit and it also tells us not everyone get all the fruits/gifts at the same time....as in the church being likened unto body parts that we need all of the body parts to function but each part plays a different roll. So we won't all receive the gift of tongues. But I may have the gift of serving and will fill my part that way.
I personally don't need the gift of tongues to know that I am saved all I have to do is know that I came to God and asked Him to forgive me which I know He did and I repented.... How do I know I am saved? Because everyday there is evidence in my life that I have done an about face and turn away from sin because God's Spirit is in me... I don't do a lot of the things I used to do because I love God and am so grateful to Him for giving me His Holy Spirit which lives in me and helps me to be an overcomer.
Do I fall and sin? Yes, but the Holy Spirit is in my heart speaking to me saying get up let's dust off and try again... When we come to Jesus and confess and repent He forgives us and this is called justification because at that moment the blood of Jesus covers our sins and we are forgiven and when God looks at us He sees the perfect life of Jesus covering us...
Sanctification is the Holy Spirit living in us and that takes a lifetime because we won't be done until we have our glorified bodies in heaven.....I would love to have the gift of tongues if God saw fit and I had the need of it but even in the verse you quoted above that I highlighted in red it was given as they had need. If you continue reading in that passage there were people from all over that spoke different dialects and they could understand the message to repent and be saved accepting the sacrifice Jesus had made for them and they said how is it that we can understand in our own language when these men are Gallileans? At this moment God must not feel that I have the need for that gift and it certainly does not determine my salvation.... Jesus sacrifice on the cross is all I need for that....
I personally don't need the gift of tongues to know that I am saved all I have to do is know that I came to God and asked Him to forgive me which I know He did and I repented.... How do I know I am saved? Because everyday there is evidence in my life that I have done an about face and turn away from sin because God's Spirit is in me... I don't do a lot of the things I used to do because I love God and am so grateful to Him for giving me His Holy Spirit which lives in me and helps me to be an overcomer.
Do I fall and sin? Yes, but the Holy Spirit is in my heart speaking to me saying get up let's dust off and try again... When we come to Jesus and confess and repent He forgives us and this is called justification because at that moment the blood of Jesus covers our sins and we are forgiven and when God looks at us He sees the perfect life of Jesus covering us...
Sanctification is the Holy Spirit living in us and that takes a lifetime because we won't be done until we have our glorified bodies in heaven.....I would love to have the gift of tongues if God saw fit and I had the need of it but even in the verse you quoted above that I highlighted in red it was given as they had need. If you continue reading in that passage there were people from all over that spoke different dialects and they could understand the message to repent and be saved accepting the sacrifice Jesus had made for them and they said how is it that we can understand in our own language when these men are Gallileans? At this moment God must not feel that I have the need for that gift and it certainly does not determine my salvation.... Jesus sacrifice on the cross is all I need for that....
G
It is not the same for us. Peter and these believers were saved in the dispensation of the hypostatic union. They had the Spirit upon them until Jesus Christ was Glorified. After Jesus Christ ascended and was Glorified, Peter and these believers were INDWELT with the Holy Spirit. These believers are our sign of the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit. Believers before Jesus Christ was glorified, had the Spirit upon them. No believer was ever indwelt with the Spirit before this time.
Believers who are saved after Jesus Christ's glorification are instantly indwelt with the Holy Spirit, or are identified with the holy Spirit.
Eph 4:5~~New American Standard Bible
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
If we don't understand the book of Acts as a transition book.............we will come to a lot of faulty beliefs.
Believers who are saved after Jesus Christ's glorification are instantly indwelt with the Holy Spirit, or are identified with the holy Spirit.
Eph 4:5~~New American Standard Bible
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
If we don't understand the book of Acts as a transition book.............we will come to a lot of faulty beliefs.
W
I see; this comment seems to have planted a seed in this thread;
--At the time of this writing, it is 19:33 GMT-5.
I'm not quite certain I can agree with this seed;
as 3Scoreand10 has not followed up on his comment;
I could elaborate further, as to why I disagree, but I think it not beneficial at this point.
So, in an attempt to assist;
Convallaria, I believe you may have jumped-the-gun when you included individuals' names with your closing blanket-statement:
And that goes for you phil, utah, gr8grace and anyone else who agrees with it.
Phil, I am not certain that you are aware, but you have an unanswered reply from Crossnote: Here.
And, Phil, as for your questions (Post #135 - Which, I believe references: Post #135) I believe I responded to all of them in (Post #111), please let me know if I missed any, or if I have been inaccurate in any of my assessments.
Angela, I haven't been following your conversation with Convallaria and I pray that Jesus intervenes.
Sincerely,
-WW
*Please let me know how I can improve my communication, people, I am not here to create enemies, but friends.
--At the time of this writing, it is 19:33 GMT-5.
I'm not quite certain I can agree with this seed;
as 3Scoreand10 has not followed up on his comment;
I could elaborate further, as to why I disagree, but I think it not beneficial at this point.
So, in an attempt to assist;
Convallaria, I believe you may have jumped-the-gun when you included individuals' names with your closing blanket-statement:
And that goes for you phil, utah, gr8grace and anyone else who agrees with it.
Phil, I am not certain that you are aware, but you have an unanswered reply from Crossnote: Here.
And, Phil, as for your questions (Post #135 - Which, I believe references: Post #135) I believe I responded to all of them in (Post #111), please let me know if I missed any, or if I have been inaccurate in any of my assessments.
Angela, I haven't been following your conversation with Convallaria and I pray that Jesus intervenes.
Sincerely,
-WW
*Please let me know how I can improve my communication, people, I am not here to create enemies, but friends.