Are We Really Predestined?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
I proof everything I read or hear against God's Word. So your accusations of me following some one else's teachings blindly are pretty absurd. I take God's Word very serious so I study in depth subject I study. What the Holy Spirit has shown me about "predestination" comes from God's Word not what some one else has said.

As for those who now say "your not worth arguing against" well that is a sign, to me, that you cannot back up your belief through God's Word. You rely upon your own understanding and possibly what some one else has written on the subject. Have you done the same thing you accuse me of? Have you been following the teachings of some one else? I am not accusing, like you did to me, but just questioning your own accusation of me.
I asked you to back up your allegation that I've quoted verses out of context. I'm still waiting.
 
E

elf3

Guest
Abel had faith in Christ and he displayed the same by sacrificing the firstlings of his flock. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
Let's begin with this. Abel had faith in Christ? Where in the Bible does it say this? I am not even sure where you got this one. Then you also illuded to Adam and Eve knowing of Christ so they would have told the kids. Don't know where you got this either.

John 12:32 you say "all men" means all men. Not only did I catch you on this but so did someone else. Who was Jesus speaking too and why did he say "all men". "There were Greeks among those.." (John 12:20). Jesus was saying that because of His Work that shall be done on the cross, salvation would be extended to Gentiles as well as Jews. It would no longer just be Jews but also Gentiles. All men does not mean "all men" the way interpret it but to every "nationality" among the human race.
 
H

hind_let_loose

Guest
"All", "Every", and "the whole world"

Many people think the doctrine of predestination is false because of passages that contain words or phrases like the ones above. The assumption is that these words or expressions have the most universal extension (or reach) possible.

So, if it says "All men," those who oppose predestination think that this expression must mean each and every human without exception. They often take passages like this to be among the strongest possible arguments against predestination, and they often mock the more restricted interpretation of these words and expressions that advocates of predestination propose.

What they fail to realize is that there is concrete, indisputable evidence from Scripture that we are not crazy to read these words and expressions in a more restricted way. More on that in just a second.

First, however, just to ensure that I'm not on a fool's errand, I want to point out that these words and expressions can have limited senses in ordinary language. For instance, suppose you're wrapping up dinner, and someone says, "Well, it looks like everyone is done. Let's clean up." "Everyone" in this expression is limited to the scope of people that ate dinner with the speaker. Or, when a Portuguese speaker wants to communicate that everyone in a particular conversational context is tired, he or she will say "O tudo mundo ésta consado" -- literally translated as "the whole world is tired." But in this context, and in this language, "the whole world" can mean anything from all people on the planet, to the three people in the car on a given night. And in this context, it means just those people in the conversational context.

Even "All' works like this. "All cars have wheels" is a true statement, as ordinary language users use the sentence. They typically ignore cases of broken down, tireless cars on front lawns because they, given the interest of their conversations, don't count as cars. They mean that the cars immediately capable of travelling down the road have tires -- all of them. But the scope, clearly, is limited.

I don't want to get sidetracked on the above examples. I threw them together really quickly, and better examples could also be given. This just shows that these words and expressions do admit of quite a bit of flexibility. Now I want to show that we have Biblical warrant for believing that the scope of these words, when used in reference to who will be saved, etc., is limited to a subset of the world's population -- namley, God's people.

Parallel Passages that confirm limited scope of universal quantifiers, etc.

We have an inspired parallel in the apostle John's writings that demonstrates the limited scope interpretation of the words/expressions mentioned above is motivated by faithful, Biblical interpretation. Compare the following passages (including 1Jn 2:2, which is often cited as evidence against Calvinism):

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

"And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." (John 11:49-52)

Notice in these passages that John actually uses the exact same structure in both:

1. For x's sins
2. Not only for x's sins
3. But also...

But notice that in John's gospel he is more precise. He gives us a key to interpret 1 John 2:2 properly. And here's how we're supposed to read it:

"And he is the propitiation for our [i.e., 'that nation' -- the Jews] sins: and not for ours [i.e., Jewish believers' sins] only, but also for the sins of the whole world [i.e., 'the children of God scattered abroad']."

He's not talking about everybody. He is talking about all of God's people, whether Jews or Gentiles.And that, importantly, is the apostle John's interpretation of the words.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Let's begin with this. Abel had faith in Christ? Where in the Bible does it say this? I am not even sure where you got this one. Then you also illuded to Adam and Eve knowing of Christ so they would have told the kids. Don't know where you got this either.
I just got home from a three day business trip and I'm going to spend the rest of the evening with my children, but I'll quickly answer the first part of your post now. Let's start here:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." (Hebrews 11:4)

Abel offered a sacrifice BY FAITH by which he obtained witness that he was RIGHTEOUS and God testified of his gifts and by his sacrifice he being dead yet speaks. Here are my initial questions for you:

1. Why was Abel offering a sacrifice to begin with? How did he know to offer sacrifice to God?
2. What or Whom did Abel have faith in?
3. Why did God declare Abel to be righteous?
4. How is Abel, being dead, yet speaking unto us?

Now, if you want to prescribe to us that there is any RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Bible BY FAITH which isn't directly related to FAITH IN CHRIST, then go right ahead and back up your claim scripturally. Personally, I'm not going there because I don't believe any other type of righteousness exists. In any case, please answer all 4 questions that I just posed to you. Thank you.

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." (Matthew 23:34-35)

Jesus said that Abel was righteous. Did Jesus prescribe a righteousness apart from faith in Him? If you believe that He did, then please back up any such allegation with scriptural evidence. Thank you.

"For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." (I John 3:11-12)

Abel's works were righteous. Again, how is this so? James taught that "faith without works" is dead and Abel had both "faith" and corresponding "works" didn't he? How do you read this?

As far as Adam and Eve knowing of Christ is concerned:

"And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living." (Genesis 3:12-20)

The part that I bold-faced is what is commonly known and commonly accepted within Christendom as the "protoevangelium" or "the first gospel" and Adam and Eve certainly seem to have been present to hear it proclaimed. Does it seem odd to you that "the gospel" pertains to Christ and faith in Him? It shouldn't. Again, how did Abel and Cain know that they needed to offer sacrifices unto the Lord? Who told them? If it wasn't their parents or God Himself, then who was it? Please answer that for me if you would be so kind.

I'll address your other question tomorrow (Lord willing).
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
John 12:32 you say "all men" means all men. Not only did I catch you on this but so did someone else. Who was Jesus speaking too and why did he say "all men". "There were Greeks among those.." (John 12:20). Jesus was saying that because of His Work that shall be done on the cross, salvation would be extended to Gentiles as well as Jews. It would no longer just be Jews but also Gentiles. All men does not mean "all men" the way interpret it but to every "nationality" among the human race.
I've got enough catching up to do tomorrow and my wife stepped out for a few minutes, so let me just mention something about this quickly too and I'll address it further at a later time. You're in great error if you believe that salvation was only extended to the Gentiles when Jesus went to the cross. In fact and it is a fact, all of the earliest believers, like Abel, Noah, Enoch and Abraham, were Gentiles in that there was no such thing as a "Jew" until after Jacob was born and eventually had his fourth son, Judah, from where we derive the word "Jew". Abel, Noah, Enoch and Abraham were all dead before this point in time so none of them could have possibly been Jews. Furthermore, there were plenty of other Gentiles who were saved in the Old Testament as well. In fact, Jesus said that the men of Nineveh, all Gentiles, would stand up in the judgment and condemn the unbelieving Jews of His day in that they repented at the preaching of Jonah and Jesus was greater than Jonah. I could also speak of other Gentiles such as Rahab, Ruth and evidently even Nebuchadnezzar himself, but Gentiles were saved long before Jesus went to the cross so I'd advise you to adjust your beliefs accordingly.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
John 12:32 you say "all men" means all men. Not only did I catch you on this but so did someone else. Who was Jesus speaking too and why did he say "all men". "There were Greeks among those.." (John 12:20). Jesus was saying that because of His Work that shall be done on the cross, salvation would be extended to Gentiles as well as Jews. It would no longer just be Jews but also Gentiles. All men does not mean "all men" the way interpret it but to every "nationality" among the human race.
Well, God's still leading me to continue, so here goes. I find it rather ironic that you're accusing me of taking verses out of context when, in fact, this is what you're guilty of. For example, I mentioned John 12:32 in regard to what you mentioned in John 6:44 and you took that verse totally out of its context and applied to it a meaning which was never intended by Jesus. When you cited John 6:44, why didn't you cite the very next verse as well? There, we read:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:44-45)

Jesus qualified exactly who was going to come to Him after being drawn by the Father when He said that it is written in the prophets that all shall be taught of God and that every man therefore who has heard and has learned of the Father comes to Him. Well, where is this written in the prophets? It's written right here:

"Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones. And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children." (Isaiah 54:1-13)

Contextually, the LORD was here speaking to the Gentiles and Paul actually quoted the first verse here in relation to the Gentiles in Galatians chapter 4. The LORD had also just finished speaking about the Jews in the previous chapter of Isaiah who "didn't believe His report" and IN FACT AND IT IS FACT Jesus had just finished chiding certain Jews for their UNWILLINGNESS TO COME TO HIM before what you cited from John chapter 6:

"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (John 5:37-40)

Whereas Jesus said that these Jews WOULD NOT COME TO HIM THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE LIFE, you and others here would have us to believe that these Jews COULD NOT COME TO HIM THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE LIFE. Again, I'll stick with Jesus. Yes, Jesus said that those who hear and learn of the Father come to Him and that these Jews didn't even have God's Word abiding in them. No, they searched the scriptures thinking that in them they had eternal life (IOW, they "rested in the law" even as Paul spoke of in Romans chapter 2), but they did not believe in the One Whom the scriptures all testify of.

Good night.
 
Last edited:
E

elf3

Guest
Abel had faith in Christ and he displayed the same by sacrificing the firstlings of his flock. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
I just got home from a three day business trip and I'm going to spend the rest of the evening with my children, but I'll quickly answer the first part of your post now. Let's start here:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." (Hebrews 11:4)

Abel offered a sacrifice BY FAITH by which he obtained witness that he was RIGHTEOUS and God testified of his gifts and by his sacrifice he being dead yet speaks. Here are my initial questions for you:

1. Why was Abel offering a sacrifice to begin with? How did he know to offer sacrifice to God?
2. What or Whom did Abel have faith in?
3. Why did God declare Abel to be righteous?
4. How is Abel, being dead, yet speaking unto us?

Now, if you want to prescribe to us that there is any RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Bible BY FAITH which isn't directly related to FAITH IN CHRIST, then go right ahead and back up your claim scripturally. Personally, I'm not going there because I don't believe any other type of righteousness exists. In any case, please answer all 4 questions that I just posed to you. Thank you.

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." (Matthew 23:34-35)

Jesus said that Abel was righteous. Did Jesus prescribe a righteousness apart from faith in Him? If you believe that He did, then please back up any such allegation with scriptural evidence. Thank you.

"For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." (I John 3:11-12)

Abel's works were righteous. Again, how is this so? James taught that "faith without works" is dead and Abel had both "faith" and corresponding "works" didn't he? How do you read this?

As far as Adam and Eve knowing of Christ is concerned:

"And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living." (Genesis 3:12-20)

The part that I bold-faced is what is commonly known and commonly accepted within Christendom as the "protoevangelium" or "the first gospel" and Adam and Eve certainly seem to have been present to hear it proclaimed. Does it seem odd to you that "the gospel" pertains to Christ and faith in Him? It shouldn't. Again, how did Abel and Cain know that they needed to offer sacrifices unto the Lord? Who told them? If it wasn't their parents or God Himself, then who was it? Please answer that for me if you would be so kind.

I'll address your other question tomorrow (Lord willing).
Here are the answers to your "initial questions" and others you post.

1: we don't know for sure who instructed Cain and Abel about sacrifice. There are a few speculations. A; God made the initial "sacrifice" by clothing Adam and Eve by sacrificing an animal for them. So they follow suit and start making sacrifices too God. B; God instructed Cain and Abel about sacrifices. We don't know for sure as this is the first mention of sacrifice in the Bible.

2: Since Christ, Jesus or Messiah are never mentioned before this then faith would have been in God the Father. God the Father is the only person of the trinity who speaks to man through the OT. The idea of Adam and Eve knowing what Gen 3:15 is refering too is pure speculation as it is never mentioned that they understood this. The title "Christ" is never mentioned in the Bible until Matt 1:1. The name of Jesus is never mentioned until Matt 1:1. The title "Messiah" is never mentioned until Dan 9:25. The "Immanuel Prophesy" is never mentioned before Isaiah 7. There is no Biblical proof that Adam and Eve could have taught the kids about Christ (more on this one later). To say that Abel placed his faith in Christ is an absurd stretch of truth.

3&4: you answer these questions in your opening by quoting Heb 11:4. Abel speaks to us "though he died" by his faith in God. It was by his faith by which God "commends as righteous". Abel is one of which is spoken of in Heb 12:1 as part of the "great cloud of witnesses" by which we are deemed as righteous by faith.

(From your question #2) Before Jesus walked this earth, died for our sins and on the third day rose there was no Gospel of Christ. Noah by his faith in God the Father built the ark. Abraham by his faith in God the Father is seen as righteous by his faith. David is known as "a man after God's own heart" by his faith in God the Father. You cannot say there was a Gospel of Christ before the finished Work of Christ. Again, there was no Gospel of Christ before Christ.

As per your James question. Was it by faith or works by which Abel was deemed righteous? If you say both by faith and by works then you are saying God sees us as righteous partly by our works. This is false teaching. Our works have nothing to do with us being seen as righteous before God. In Eph 2:8,9 Paul tells us "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this not of your own doing; it is a gift of God., not a result of works, so that no one can boast." Are Paul and James at odds here? Or is James saying that our faith will be shown by our works but it isnt by our works by which we are seen as righteous by God?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Here are the answers to your "initial questions" and others you post.

1: we don't know for sure who instructed Cain and Abel about sacrifice. There are a few speculations. A; God made the initial "sacrifice" by clothing Adam and Eve by sacrificing an animal for them. So they follow suit and start making sacrifices too God. B; God instructed Cain and Abel about sacrifices. We don't know for sure as this is the first mention of sacrifice in the Bible.
Well, if the first speculation is true, then, again, how did Abel and Cain know about the same? They obviously weren't even yet alive at that point in time, so somebody, whether God, their parents or an angel, must have informed them of the same. In any case, speculations aside, what was the purpose of sacrifices if not to foreshadow the crucifixion of Christ "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8) or to foreshadow that we are "redeemed...with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb, without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for us" (I Peter 1:18-20)? Answer this for me, if you would be so kind. There is what is commonly referred to as "a scarlet thread" which weaves its way throughout the Old Testament in that there are many types and shadows of Christ's redeeming blood throughout the Old Testament, including said sacrifices, and, therefore, when John the Baptist said of Jesus, "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), the people should have known exactly what John was talking about.

2: Since Christ, Jesus or Messiah are never mentioned before this then faith would have been in God the Father.
You're splitting hairs here. We both know that God mentioned a coming Redeemer in Genesis 3:15, so if this coming Redeemer wasn't Christ, then Who was He? Also, again, if Abel's sacrifice wasn't meant to foreshadow Christ's ultimate sacrifice, then why was sacrifice established to begin with? Again, we know that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" and we know that sacrifices such as the Passover and others all pointed directly to Christ, so what did Abel's sacrifice point to which he offered "by faith" if not to Christ? I find it interesting, to say the least, that you're attributing Abel's righteousness to merely a belief in God when God Himself has determined that none are righteous apart from Christ all throughout scripture.

God the Father is the only person of the trinity who speaks to man through the OT.
Christ is heard speaking a truckload of times in the Old Testament, so you really ought to spend a lot less time trying to "correct" me when I'm speaking the truth and a lot more time prayerfully studying your Bible. I could give you many examples of the same, but I'll just give you two for now:

"For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me." (Hebrews 2:11-13)

Jesus is "not ashamed to call them", Christians, "brethren" and He said as much in the Old Testament right here:

"I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee." (Psalm 22:22)

Furthermore, Jesus spoke in the Old Testament about both "Himself and the children which God had given Him":

"Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion." (Isaiah 8:18)

I could easily give you many, many more examples of the same, so for you to say that "God the Father is the only person of the trinity who speaks to man through the OT" only shows how your time would be much better spent in learning how to properly read and understand the Bible than it would be spent in attempting to "correct" me when I'm not even in error to begin with.

The idea of Adam and Eve knowing what Gen 3:15 is refering too is pure speculation as it is never mentioned that they understood this.
Again, God mentioned a coming Redeemer. If you want to believe that Adam and Eve were clueless as to what this meant, then that's certainly your prerogative to do so. I believe otherwise, so we'll just have to disagree on this point.

The title "Christ" is never mentioned in the Bible until Matt 1:1. The title "Messiah" is never mentioned until Dan 9:25. The "Immanuel Prophesy" is never mentioned before Isaiah 7. There is no Biblical proof that Adam and Eve could have taught the kids about Christ (more on this one later). To say that Abel placed his faith in Christ is an absurd stretch of truth.
The title "Christ", Greek "Christos", is the equivalent of "anointed", Hebrew "mashiyach", which appears regularly in the Old Testament scriptures. Here's a clear example of the same:

"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (Hebrew: mashiyach), saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us." (Psalm 2:1-3, parentheses mine)

"And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ (Greek: Christos)." (Acts 4:24-26, parentheses mine)


This mention of the Messiah (Hebrew: mashiyach) certainly appears before Daniel's mention of the same, so, again, I'd advise you to adjust your theology accordingly. In fact, there are multiple mentions of "mashiyachs" in the Old Testament which precede Daniel's mention in that priests, kings and prophets were all "anointed" (Hebrew: mashiyach or Hebrew: mashach which is the root of mashiyach and which means to "anoint") as foreshadowings of the ultimate Priest, King and Prophet, Jesus Christ. I'll just give one example of each from the Old Testament:

"And the priest that is anointed (Hebrew: mashiyach) shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:" (Leviticus 4:5, parentheses mine)

" Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (Hebrew: mashiyach) of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said," (II Samuel 23:1, parentheses mine)

"And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint (Hebrew: mashach and the base root of mashiyach) to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah shalt thou anoint (Hebrew: mashach and the base root of mashiyach) to be prophet in thy room." (I Kings 19:16, parentheses mine)


The name of Jesus is never mentioned until Matt 1:1.
I wouldn't be too sure of that if I was you:

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)

Jesus was given His name "for" or because the name Jesus, which is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Yeshua, literally means "He shall save His people from their sins" or "Jehovah is salvation":

Online Etymology Dictionary

Jesus

late 12c. (Old English used hælend "savior"), from Greek Iesous, which is an attempt to render into Greek the Aramaic proper name Jeshua (Hebrew Yeshua) "Jah is salvation," a common Jewish personal name, the later form of Hebrew Yehoshua (see Joshua).
Not only was Joshua a foreshadowing of Christ both in name and certain deeds, but Jesus' name in its Hebrew equivalent of Yeshua appears regularly in the underlying Hebrew of the Old Testament as our English word "salvation". Again, I'll just give you two examples of the same:

"I have waited for thy salvation (Hebrew: yĕshuw`ah), O LORD." (Genesis 49:18, parentheses mine)

"The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation (Hebrew: yĕshuw`ah): he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him." (Exodus 15:2, parentheses mine)

Furthermore, whereas you wrongly insist that Jesus is never heard speaking in the Old Testament, Paul tells us that Christ was actually the Rock Who followed the Israelites during their wilderness journeys and that He is the One Whom the Israelites tempted:

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (I Corinthians 10:1-12)

Paul said that "the Rock that followed them was Christ" and Moses basically said the same exact thing:

"But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation (Hebrew: yĕshuw`ah)." (Deuteronomy 32:15, parentheses mine)

In effect, Moses spoke of "the Rock of Yeshua" and Paul spoke of "the Rock which was Christ". Is there really any difference? In any case, the Hebrew word "yĕshuw`ah" appears 78 times in 77 verses in the Old Testament and you can verify that for yourself here:

Hebrew Lexicon :: H3444 (KJV)

3&4: you answer these questions in your opening by quoting Heb 11:4. Abel speaks to us "though he died" by his faith in God. It was by his faith by which God "commends as righteous". Abel is one of which is spoken of in Heb 12:1 as part of the "great cloud of witnesses" by which we are deemed as righteous by faith.
And the whole epistle to the Hebrews describes for us the righteousness of God which is by faith in Christ as does the whole New Testament and the whole Old Testament if properly understood. Paul said:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:21-26)

The righteousness of God cannot be separated from faith in Christ Jesus and if you think otherwise, then you are greatly deceived.

(From your question #2) Before Jesus walked this earth, died for our sins and on the third day rose there was no Gospel of Christ.
Paul would certainly disagree with you:

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (I Corinthians 15:1-3)

"The scriptures" of which Paul spoke were the Old Testament scriptures and I'll be happy to prove the same to you if need be.

Noah by his faith in God the Father built the ark. Abraham by his faith in God the Father is seen as righteous by his faith. David is known as "a man after God's own heart" by his faith in God the Father. You cannot say there was a Gospel of Christ before the finished Work of Christ. Again, there was no Gospel of Christ before Christ.
Yet again, you don't know what you're talking about. Peter told us what Noah's ark represents when he wrote:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." (I Peter 3:18-22)

Not only did what happened in relation to Noah and the flood prefigure water baptism or "the answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead", but Peter also told us that Noah was "a preacher of righteousness":

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" (II Peter 2:5)

Again, what type of righteousness was Noah preaching? You apparently believe that there is a righteousness apart from faith in Christ, but the Bible teaches no such thing unless you're into self-righteousness which counts for nothing in God's sight. Furthermore, as with Abel, we read of Noah's "faith":

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7)

Again, "Noah became an heir of the righteousness which is by faith" and if you think that anybody is an "heir" without being a "joint-heir with Christ" (Romans 8:17) or that anybody is deemed to be "righteous" in God's eyes apart from "faith in Christ", then you're beyond confused.

Abraham's "faith" was similarly "in Christ" despite your apparent ignorance of the same:

"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Galatians 3:8)

Again:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." (Galatians 3:16-19)

God not only "preached before the gospel unto Abraham" which you apparently believe didn't include Christ, but Abraham's "seed...is Christ" and Abraham was well aware of the same. When God spoke to Abraham in relation to his "seed, which is Christ", He was actually "confirming His covenant in Christ" Who is "the seed Who should come to Whom the promise was made".

Regarding David, I've already shown that David mentioned "the mashiyach" or "the Christ" in Psalm 2, but I'll add this as well:

"While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions." (Matthew 22:41-46)

Jesus here quoted from Psalm 110 in which David called Jesus "Lord", so how the heck could you possibly believe that David didn't know about the gospel of Christ?

I'll finish addressing your post in my next response.
 
E

elf3

Guest
You are correct on one point because I worded it wrong. Jesus does speak in the OT.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
As per your James question. Was it by faith or works by which Abel was deemed righteous? If you say both by faith and by works then you are saying God sees us as righteous partly by our works. This is false teaching. Our works have nothing to do with us being seen as righteous before God. In Eph 2:8,9 Paul tells us "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this not of your own doing; it is a gift of God., not a result of works, so that no one can boast." Are Paul and James at odds here? Or is James saying that our faith will be shown by our works but it isnt by our works by which we are seen as righteous by God?
I actually chuckled when I read this part of your post. Why? Well, because like so many whom I've encountered before you, you conveniently left off "quoting" from Ephesians chapter 2 at verse 9. Why didn't you include verse 10 (rhetorical question)?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

IOW, why didn't you include the fact that God has foreordained Christians to walk in good works? Anyhow, James taught that a man isn't justified by faith alone, but by works as well and he explained exactly what that means:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:14-26)

Abraham who is "the father of all them who believe" (Romans 4:11) had corresponding works to go along with his profession of faith. IOW, even though we're told that righteousness was imputed unto Abraham because he believed what God had spoken in relation to his "seed, which is Christ" (Galatians 3:16) back in Genesis chapter 15, it wasn't until the time that Abraham sought to sacrifice Isaac upon the altar or it wasn't until the time that Abraham had corresponding works or actions to back up his professed "belief" or "faith" that said scripture was actually fulfilled and Abraham was called a Friend of God. Of course, we're told in the 11th chapter of Hebrews that Abraham received Isaac back from the dead "in a figure" in what went down upon Mt. Moriah that day, but you'd apparently have us to believe that the same didn't somehow prefigure Christ's resurrection from the dead which, according to you, Abraham allegedly knew nothing about. Whatever.

Well, there's my response that I didn't really want to give because I suspect that it will once again fall upon deaf ears and that you'll just once again attribute all of this to my alleged "stupidity". In any case, from hereon, out of respect for MPW and for the others on this thread, I will not contribute to the potential derailing of this thread anymore. If you want to continue discussing these things, then I'd recommend that you either start up a separate thread in which I'll be happy to converse with you about such matters or that you just PM me...unless you can prove how all of this relates to the actual topic of this thread and then I'll gladly continue to discuss these matters here. Whatever you decide, you're obviously either ignorant of many things which, in and of itself isn't bad because we're all ignorant of many things, but we ought not go shooting our mouths off about the same while accusing others of being "stupid", or you're willfully (even though we allegedly don't have free will) ignorant of many things which is potentially fatal. In either case, although you've been attributing your beliefs to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, such is obviously not the case in that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth of your posts are loaded with error. That ought to concern you, but, sadly, I expect that it won't. Hopefully, my expectation is wrong.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
You are correct on one point because I worded it wrong. Jesus does speak in the OT.
Not that this is any way, shape or form about me, but I'm correct on all points unless you believe that you can prove otherwise. If so, then have at it. I've presented my case from scripture. If you can refute it scripturally, then I'd certainly like to hear it. As I suggested though, out of respect for the OP, unless this all somehow ties into the actual topic of the thread, it really ought to be discussed elsewhere.
 
E

elf3

Guest
OK since you say I "conveniently" stopped at Eph 9 let's go on. Eph 10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

It says we are created to do good works. It does not say our works save us. Paul is saying that if we are Christians then we should be doing good works. James "backs up" Paul by stating that our faith should be shown by our works (James 2:18). No where do either of them state that we are saved in part by our works. But then you will use the argument if James 2:21,22 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his so on the alter? Do you see that faith was working together with his workd, and by works faith was made perfect." Abrahams faith was SHOWN by his works. Then how was he seen as righteous? James 2:23 "And the Scripture was full filled which says 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.'" Does it say that Abraham had faith in God or Christ? Then you will bring up James 2:24 "You see then that man is justified by works, and not by faith only." So is this verse now contradicting what Paul and James said earlier? No, it showing how our faith will be shown through our works. A man who says he has faith yet does not show it in his actions has a false faith by mouth alone.
 
E

elf3

Guest
Not that this is any way, shape or form about me, but I'm correct on all points unless you believe that you can prove otherwise. If so, then have at it. I've presented my case from scripture. If you can refute it scripturally, then I'd certainly like to hear it. As I suggested though, out of respect for the OP, unless this all somehow ties into the actual topic of the thread, it really ought to be discussed elsewhere.
I have shown it but since you say that you are correct on all points you have refused to look at what I have shown. But even more, two other people have shown how you are incorrect. Not just on the "Abel had faith in Christ" issue but in your misinterpretation of John 12:32.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
OK since you say I "conveniently" stopped at Eph 9 let's go on. Eph 10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

It says we are created to do good works. It does not say our works save us. Paul is saying that if we are Christians then we should be doing good works. James "backs up" Paul by stating that our faith should be shown by our works (James 2:18). No where do either of them state that we are saved in part by our works. But then you will use the argument if James 2:21,22 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his so on the alter? Do you see that faith was working together with his workd, and by works faith was made perfect." Abrahams faith was SHOWN by his works. Then how was he seen as righteous? James 2:23 "And the Scripture was full filled which says 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.'" Does it say that Abraham had faith in God or Christ? Then you will bring up James 2:24 "You see then that man is justified by works, and not by faith only." So is this verse now contradicting what Paul and James said earlier? No, it showing how our faith will be shown through our works. A man who says he has faith yet does not show it in his actions has a false faith by mouth alone.
Regarding faith and works and how they go together, where did I say differently from what you just said? Do you even bother reading my posts before responding to them? I said that James told us exactly what he meant and then I described how our actions or our corresponding works need to align themselves with what we profess to believe in. If they don't align, then we have no saving or justifying faith and both Paul and James would concur with what I just said.

As far as Whom Abraham had faith in is concerned, here's the text:

"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." (Genesis 15:1-6)

Abraham's "belief" was directly in relation to what had been promised in regard to his "seed". Who then is Abraham's "seed"? Well, there's really no need to guess:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." (Galatians 3:16-19)

Again:

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:26-29)

According to scripture, Abraham's seed is Christ and Christians, whether they be Jews or Gentiles. As such, when Abraham believed the promise that was given to him in relation to his "seed, which is Christ" (Galatians 3:16), he not only believed God, but he also placed his faith in the "seed" Whom he was told of and it was by that "faith" that he was deemed to be "righteous". Again, the Bible offers no true righteousness to anybody apart from Christ. If you believe otherwise, then the burden of proof is upon you. At my end, I've already shown that the righteousness of God is by faith in Christ. If you believe that such is merely one means of righteousness which God offers, then please document any other type of righteousness from scripture. Thank you.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
I have shown it but since you say that you are correct on all points you have refused to look at what I have shown. But even more, two other people have shown how you are incorrect. Not just on the "Abel had faith in Christ" issue but in your misinterpretation of John 12:32.
In regard to "Abel had faith in Christ", I've already documented why such must be so. Again, why was sacrifice instituted to begin with? What was its purpose if not to foreshadow the crucifixion or sacrifice of Christ Who was foreordained for such before the foundation of the world? Also, we're told that Abel was "righteous" based upon his "faith" and you've yet to show anywhere in scripture where God deems anybody to be righteous apart from faith in Christ and that goes for your "two other people" as well. Where's the beef? Where's this other form of righteousness that you allege exists apart from faith in Christ? Show it to us in scripture. If you cannot, then drop this nonsense. Contrary to your claim, I've not only "looked at what you've shown", but I've looked at it for about the last 27 years before our paths ever crossed here. As such, you really ought to stop telling me what I allegedly "refuse" to do.

You apparently still don't get the whole John 12:32 thing. Again, for starters, I offered it primarily to counter your offering of John 6:44 as an alleged "proof text" even though you totally pulled it out of its context and applied to it a meaning which was never intended by Jesus. Where's your refutation or explanation of what I demonstrated and/or questioned in a previous response to you? The silence is deafening. In John 12:32, I never denied that "all men" included the Gentiles, so I honestly don't see how you could even be accusing me of "misinterpreting" anything. "All men" would certainly include Gentiles and I never sought to exclude them. What, then, is your beef? All that I said is that God attempts to "draw all men" unto Christ and that men, because of their God-given free wills, can willfully resist such drawings and willfully resist the Holy Ghost even as so many have done throughout history. Do I have to cite a bunch of verses, both Old Testament and New Testament alike, which document that man has A CHOICE in the matter? If I do, then I will.
 
M

MadParrotWoman

Guest
I have asked for this thread to be closed - it is going nowhere fast and it has become all about being right. I hope they oblige in closing it.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
It's not all about being right, per se, but rather all about rightly dividing from the Word Who God truly is. If our perception of God is wrong, then that leads to major problems somewhere down the line.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Everybody here claims to have read the epistle to the Romans, so I'll end my participation here with the following from chapter 1 (even though some seemingly prefer to begin reading in chapter 9):

"I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:14-17)

The just shall live by faith and not just by any sort of arbitrary faith, but specifically by faith in the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes and not to everyone who was allegedly "predestined" or hand-picked by God before the foundation of the world. Again, in scripture, there is no righteousness made available unto any of us apart from Christ. Period.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:18-32)

God's wrath is revealed against those who:

1. Hold the truth in unrighteousness.
2. Had that which may be known of God manifest to them and showed to them.
3. Have understood God's eternal power and Godhead and are without excuse.
4. Knew God, yet glorified Him not as God and neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations.
5. Changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into images of that which is corruptible.
6. Have been given up through the lusts or desires of their own hearts.
7. Changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator.
8. Did not want to retain God in their knowledge.

Etc., etc., etc.

In spite of all this or in spite of the reality that many of those who will face God's wrath will have known both Him and the truth at some point in time and are therefore without excuse in that they didn't want to retain God in their knowledge, we're being told that God allegedly "predestined" the same for damnation. Yes, allegedly, as mind-boggling as it is, God "predestined" these people to know both Him and the truth and then "predestined" them to turn from the same without any willful decisions of their own so that He might pour out His wrath upon them. This "god" is the devil. Period.

Let the thread be closed and let the demonizing of the One True God cease.
 
Last edited:

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." (Hebrews 11:4)

Abel offered a sacrifice BY FAITH by which he obtained witness that he was RIGHTEOUS and God testified of his gifts and by his sacrifice he being dead yet speaks. Here are my initial questions for you:

1. Why was Abel offering a sacrifice to begin with? How did he know to offer sacrifice to God?
Because he was a shepherd and wanted to show God that he was grateful for the abundance God had given him. The only question was as to how he could offer God one of his sheep. And the idea came to him that they way to do so was to burn it so that its smoke would go towards heaven and be a pleasing odour to God. It was a mincha, a gift offering, not a sin offering, teh concept of which was unknown.

2. What or Whom did Abel have faith in?
He had faith in God.


3. Why did God declare Abel to be righteous?
Because he was living a life that was pleasing to God (sin did not couch at his door) and because he was truly thankful for God's gifts.

If Cain had offered his meal offering with the same attitude of heart, his too would have been accepted.


4. How is Abel, being dead, yet speaking unto us?
Because we see his example of obedience and faith.

Now, if you want to prescribe to us that there is any RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Bible BY FAITH which isn't directly related to FAITH IN CHRIST, then go right ahead and back up your claim scripturally.
Christ was unknown in Old Testament times, and in the time of Abel even the concept had not been formed. Thus his faith was not faith in Christ. What he had was what Abraham had, faith in YHWH. And he had no conception of YHWH as being anything other than ONE.

Personally, I'm not going there because I don't believe any other type of righteousness exists.
Then why was Enoch righteous? Why was Noah righteous? Why was Abraham righteous? It was because they believed the ONE GOD YHWH. So what you believe doesn't count for very much.


In any case, please answer all 4 questions that I just posed to you. Thank you.

All answered.

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." (Matthew 23:34-35)


Jesus said that Abel was righteous.
He was righteous, because he believed YHWH and He counted it to him for righteousness. NOT because he had faith in Christ of whom he was not directly aware.

Did Jesus prescribe a righteousness apart from faith in Him? If you believe that He did, then please back up any such allegation with scriptural evidence. Thank you.
As Jesus did not exist in Old Testament times (He was not born until the time of Herod) Jesus was certainly prescribing a righteousness which was not faith in Him. He was prescribing faith in the ONE GOD YHWH. That is how Abel would have seen Him. You really cannot cheat and sneak Christ in. Abel had no conception of Christ, or of Jesus.

"
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." (I John 3:11-12)
Abel's works were righteous.
Precisely, Cain allowed sin to couch at the door, Abel believed and obeyed God and was therefore righteous.

Again, how is this so? James taught that "faith without works" is dead and Abel had both "faith" and corresponding "works" didn't he? How do you read this?
That he believed in YHWH the Creator, and his covenant God, and believed and obeyed Him. You really cannot justificably include New testament concepts. That is to distort the facts.

As far as Adam and Eve knowing of Christ is concerned:

"And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living." (Genesis 3:12-20)

The part that I bold-faced is what is commonly known and commonly accepted within Christendom as the "protoevangelium" or "the first gospel" and Adam and Eve certainly seem to have been present to hear it proclaimed.
Well of course Christendom having had further revelation could look back on God's promise and read into it far more than it originally in men's minds contained. But it is being totally dishonest to suggest that Adam read that into it. We have no grounds at all for thinking that he did. What he heard proclaimed was mankind's victory over the serpent.


Does it seem odd to you that "the gospel" pertains to Christ and faith in Him?
But it was NOT called the Gospel in Genesis. You are exegetically cheating. If you are saying that Adam knew that the promise referred to Christ you are wholly foolish. To Adam it indicated mankind's victory over the serpent.

It shouldn't. Again, how did Abel and Cain know that they needed to offer sacrifices unto the Lord? Who told them? If it wasn't their parents or God Himself, then who was it? Please answer that for me if you would be so kind.
God showed them how to offer the fruit of their labours to Him. It was an offering (a mincha) NOT a sacrifice. It was an act of praise and gratitude. We CANNOT HONESTLY read back into it later offerings and sacrifices. It was NOT a picture of Christ's sacrifice.

I'll address your other question tomorrow (Lord willing).
Hope you'll do better.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
Everybody here claims to have read the epistle to the Romans, so I'll end my participation here with the following from chapter 1 (even though some seemingly prefer to begin reading in chapter 9):

"I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:14-17)


Yes and the whole point was that it was a new Gospel based on new events. It was not faith in the good news of Christ that was spoken of in the Old Testament. Faith there was faith in the ONE GOD YHWH. You are reading back into the Old Testament what is not there. Careless exegesis.

The just shall live by faith and not just by any sort of arbitrary faith, but specifically by faith in the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes
But that is a new concept being preached in the New Testament. It was not what Habakkuk had in mind when he said 'the just shall live by faith'. Habakkuk was thinking of faith in the ONE GOD YHWH. If you had mentioned Christ he would not have had a clue what you meant.


and not to everyone who was allegedly "predestined" or hand-picked by God before the foundation of the world. Again, in scripture, there is no righteousness made available unto any of us apart from Christ. Period.
True and that righteousness through faith comes to men through the grace (unmerited love and favour) of God. And who receive it? Those who are given to Jesus Christ by the Father (John 6.37-44). Those who are elect according to God's forechoosing (1 Pet 1.2). Those on whom He has chosen to have mercy (Rom 9.15-16). It is not of him who wills, nor of him who does, but of GOD Who shows mercy.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:18-32)

God's wrath is revealed against those who:

1. Hold the truth in unrighteousness.
Absolutely correct.

2. Had that which may be known of God manifest to them and showed to them.
True.

3. Have understood God's eternal power and Godhead and are without excuse.
God showed it to them, but I doubt if many of them understood it. They are without excuse because they SHOULD have understood it if their minds had been open.

4. Knew God, yet glorified Him not as God and neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations.
An interesting use of the word know which must be interpreted in the light of verse 19. They knew ABOUT God. They had a certain head knowledge. But they had no real knowledge of Him.


5. Changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into images of that which is corruptible.
6. Have been given up through the lusts or desires of their own hearts.
7. Changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator.
8. Did not want to retain God in their knowledge.

Etc., etc., etc.
Yes they knew about Him but had no desire to retain that knowledge in their minds.

In spite of all this or in spite of the reality that many of those who will face God's wrath will have known both Him and the truth at some point in time and are therefore without excuse in that they didn't want to retain God in their knowledge, we're being told that God allegedly "predestined" the same for damnation.
Well yes He did, and He did so on ANY viewpoint. For He knew from the beginning who would reject Him. So He created them knowing that they were doomed. If that is not predestination I do not know what is. If predestination condemns God (and I do not believe that it does) then God would stand condemned on ANY view. He made them knowing that they would not believe. How then could he blame them?

Yes, allegedly, as mind-boggling as it is, God "predestined" these people to know both Him and the truth and then "predestined" them to turn from the same without any willful decisions of their own so that He might pour out His wrath upon them. This "god" is the devil. Period.
You should read the Scripture more carefully and discerningly. They did not know Him and the truth. They knew about Him and about the truth. Besides no one that I know of suggests that they did not turn from Him by a willful decision. Of course they did. All men turned from Him by a willful decision. What they could not do because of their sinfulness was turn TOWARDS HIM by a willful decision. Willful gives the game away. Man is willful and as he is in himself rejects God willfuly.

Beware. God will judge you for calling Him the devil!!!!

Let the thread be closed and let the demonizing of the One True God cease.
Amen! Depart you eviltalker!!