To comfort those who speak in tongues
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K
Calling proper biblical exegesis "unbelief" is the cry of a heretic, in my opinion.
One, I learned it in Bible college, so you needed fret about there being "a large margin for error." Two, I guess you don't any dictionaries, either, it being too risky to use in order to define a word for fear of "a large margin for error."
I do, all the time. The thing us, unlike you, I also use other, more reliable sources other than myself to discern what the Spirit is telling me. You seem to think the only Source you need is the Holy Spirit, which is true only if you know absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that what you "hear" from Him lines up with biblical truth.
Read this next part carefully: Your "signs-and-wonders doctrines" are a manmade teaching that sprinkles bad theology, poor exegesis, nearly no historical or lexical context with a very small bit of truth that leads to huge error on the part of your pastors, and your fellow practioners. You are not "spiritual discerning" but self-discerning. Therein lies the different in how I know the Holy Spirit, and you abuse whatever relationship you might hope to have with Him.
Really? I guess someone tore these verses out of your Bible, hm?
Your doctrine, my friend, is not sound. Sound doctrine leads to life.
Sound doctrine is too easily left unrecognizable in our own "wisdom." The reason Paul and the other apostles constantly urge sitting under strong teaching, sound doctrine, listening to true teachers who are students of the Gospel, rather than just saying, "Rely on the Holy Spirit. He'll tell you everything you need to know," is because, without those solidly biblical teachings, which include a knowledge of the original languages, the culture and history the the times associated with the Gospel writers, the Old Testament ties to the new revelation of Christ, you will be easily misled, or you will mislead yourself, thinking your own thoughts are "the voice of God."
The word of God comes from the Holy Spirit. You would have us go directly to the source when the great risk -- as evident in your own misguided beliefs -- is that you will not "hear" God, but something else, be it the imaginings of man, or the doctrine of demons, who work tirelessly to distract us from the Gospel of faith through grace with bells and whistles like "gifts" of tongues, healings, and even claims of resurrections.
"Examine everything." Don't take your own thoughts as "evidence" of anything. Make certain what you think about a passage, a belief, a doctrine, can be biblically supported. Your's can't be supported from the Bible, no matter how many verses (taken out of context) you think you can quote to me. And you need to realize that warning isn't given by Paul out of the blue. It is obvious from the context that the Thessolonicans were dealing with similar, though not as severe, issues as the off-the-wall Corinthians and their man-based practices.
Paul even warns against "despising prophetic utterances" there, the canon of the Bible not being fully written at the time, but notice he doesn't say a thing about tongues or the other temporary "signs-and-wonders" gifts.
You totally ignore context here, again cherry-picking verses to "prove" and unprovable point. Paul isn't speaking of the Spirit revealing "everything you ever needed to know about God and how He works." He is talking about the Spirit helping us receive as truth the sound doctrine of biblical teaching! He isn't talking about the Spirit "zapping us" with wisdom, but of mature Christians received the wisdom of God through sound teachers.
Paul is speaking to you. He is saying, "Grow up!" Be mature in Christ so you can receive the meat of the Gospel and not be distracted and needlessly entertained by sideshows run by false teachers and demons.
One, I learned it in Bible college, so you needed fret about there being "a large margin for error." Two, I guess you don't any dictionaries, either, it being too risky to use in order to define a word for fear of "a large margin for error."
I do, all the time. The thing us, unlike you, I also use other, more reliable sources other than myself to discern what the Spirit is telling me. You seem to think the only Source you need is the Holy Spirit, which is true only if you know absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that what you "hear" from Him lines up with biblical truth.
Read this next part carefully: Your "signs-and-wonders doctrines" are a manmade teaching that sprinkles bad theology, poor exegesis, nearly no historical or lexical context with a very small bit of truth that leads to huge error on the part of your pastors, and your fellow practioners. You are not "spiritual discerning" but self-discerning. Therein lies the different in how I know the Holy Spirit, and you abuse whatever relationship you might hope to have with Him.
Really? I guess someone tore these verses out of your Bible, hm?
2 Timothy 2, NASB
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
Titus 2
1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.
Jude
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly [i.e., fight diligently] for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
Titus 2
1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.
Jude
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly [i.e., fight diligently] for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Your doctrine, my friend, is not sound. Sound doctrine leads to life.
1 Timothy 4
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
Sound doctrine is too easily left unrecognizable in our own "wisdom." The reason Paul and the other apostles constantly urge sitting under strong teaching, sound doctrine, listening to true teachers who are students of the Gospel, rather than just saying, "Rely on the Holy Spirit. He'll tell you everything you need to know," is because, without those solidly biblical teachings, which include a knowledge of the original languages, the culture and history the the times associated with the Gospel writers, the Old Testament ties to the new revelation of Christ, you will be easily misled, or you will mislead yourself, thinking your own thoughts are "the voice of God."
The word of God comes from the Holy Spirit. You would have us go directly to the source when the great risk -- as evident in your own misguided beliefs -- is that you will not "hear" God, but something else, be it the imaginings of man, or the doctrine of demons, who work tirelessly to distract us from the Gospel of faith through grace with bells and whistles like "gifts" of tongues, healings, and even claims of resurrections.
1 Thessalonians 5
21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
22 abstain from every form of evil.
21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
22 abstain from every form of evil.
"Examine everything." Don't take your own thoughts as "evidence" of anything. Make certain what you think about a passage, a belief, a doctrine, can be biblically supported. Your's can't be supported from the Bible, no matter how many verses (taken out of context) you think you can quote to me. And you need to realize that warning isn't given by Paul out of the blue. It is obvious from the context that the Thessolonicans were dealing with similar, though not as severe, issues as the off-the-wall Corinthians and their man-based practices.
1 Thessalonians 5
12 But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction,
13 and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another.
14 We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
15 See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.
16 Rejoice always;
17 pray without ceasing;
18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
19 Do not quench the Spirit;
20 do not despise prophetic utterances.
12 But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction,
13 and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another.
14 We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
15 See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.
16 Rejoice always;
17 pray without ceasing;
18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
19 Do not quench the Spirit;
20 do not despise prophetic utterances.
Paul even warns against "despising prophetic utterances" there, the canon of the Bible not being fully written at the time, but notice he doesn't say a thing about tongues or the other temporary "signs-and-wonders" gifts.
You totally ignore context here, again cherry-picking verses to "prove" and unprovable point. Paul isn't speaking of the Spirit revealing "everything you ever needed to know about God and how He works." He is talking about the Spirit helping us receive as truth the sound doctrine of biblical teaching! He isn't talking about the Spirit "zapping us" with wisdom, but of mature Christians received the wisdom of God through sound teachers.
1 Corinthains 2
3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Paul is speaking to you. He is saying, "Grow up!" Be mature in Christ so you can receive the meat of the Gospel and not be distracted and needlessly entertained by sideshows run by false teachers and demons.
Why would you need other sources to explain to you what the Holy Spirit is saying ???
The Holy Spirit will tell it to you plainly and truthfully, and you would not need those outside sources for understanding Him.
He will lead us to other sources yes but only for growing and edification, not for understanding His way.
Bible colleges are man made systems that are full of doctrinal errors in their teachings, and most that I have seen that have gone to them complicate the word to much and change what is clearly being said in the word. The other thing they do is teach others to pull scriptures out and make them stand alone, that is bad exegesis !!!
P
There have been several occasions (on these forums) where I have been so blinded by what I perceived as offensive and destructive words that I failed to see the truth in their statements. Perhaps this is one of the difficulties that goes along with this method of communication (internet forums). Perhaps it is because I am still an infant in the faith, compared to these grandpas.
I encourage you two to go back to your OP and re-read their responses to you.
I encourage you two to go back to your OP and re-read their responses to you.
K
No because it is the Word of God therefore it is just as much of the Spirit as well, and the Holy Spirit that is given to us will guide us in the truth of what is written in the scriptures so that their is no private interpretations.
Those who seek out guidance from other sources besides the Holy Spirit and the word of God are easily lead into private interpretations. We have division in the churches because of these private interpretations and they act like all are saved, but the bible says there is only one path through Jesus unto eternal life and we must continue in that sound doctrine and not be lead away to other various doctrines.
Those who seek out guidance from other sources besides the Holy Spirit and the word of God are easily lead into private interpretations. We have division in the churches because of these private interpretations and they act like all are saved, but the bible says there is only one path through Jesus unto eternal life and we must continue in that sound doctrine and not be lead away to other various doctrines.
P
P
For those who have studied much more than I -- Is this a good source on the topic? https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/when-did-the-gift-of-tongues-cease/
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
I never said He was anything less than God. But His ministry is clearly explained in the bible. He speaks not of Himself but only what He receives from the Father.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I never said He was anything less than God. But His ministry is clearly explained in the bible. He speaks not of Himself but only what He receives from the Father.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
Once again that is a misuse of 1 Corinthians 13 to say that those gifts of the Spirit do not exist right now.
This is the love chapter and the whole context is about love therefore that which is perfect comes is referring to perfect love, as it says when those gifts are done in part (without love) they will cease or be done away.
Because they are not done by the will of God or are they from God if done without love.
The proper context to be used for 1 Corinthians 13 is when perfect love comes into the world those gifts will cease because all will be fulfilled then and there would be no longer any use for those because we will be with the Lord our God for eternity.
That which is perfect comes is not the bible (scriptures) !!!
This is the love chapter and the whole context is about love therefore that which is perfect comes is referring to perfect love, as it says when those gifts are done in part (without love) they will cease or be done away.
Because they are not done by the will of God or are they from God if done without love.
The proper context to be used for 1 Corinthians 13 is when perfect love comes into the world those gifts will cease because all will be fulfilled then and there would be no longer any use for those because we will be with the Lord our God for eternity.
That which is perfect comes is not the bible (scriptures) !!!
Suit yourself but just because you address thousands of people does not create credibility in your message.
Things that are not biblical are not biblical no matter who declares them.
The over whelming evidence in the bible is that tongues have ceased per 1 Cor 13:8. The practice in the modern church only supports what the bible teaches.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Things that are not biblical are not biblical no matter who declares them.
The over whelming evidence in the bible is that tongues have ceased per 1 Cor 13:8. The practice in the modern church only supports what the bible teaches.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Roger that can only mean that you are saying (not us) that you do not have the Holy Spirit in you, if you say He only speaks in His word and not through personal feelings. What else are the groanings that cannot be uttered? What else the joy of the Lord that is our strength? What else is the discernment that tells us the sorrow of a person's heart and the word we are burdened with to give them comfort? If God has not become personal to you Roger, I must say, it answers a lot of questions.
I think if you were a repeated victim of his attacks you would see things differently. As one who has experienced emotional abuse first hand I have had to learn what things they do to make things your fault and not theirs, and it took me years. The trouble is, once you have seen it, you know it, and you can't pretend it is otherwise.
I regret the to and fro of discussion has caused you to second-guess yourself so much that you seem to agree with everybody. That is not a good place to be. Peacemaking is good, but agreeing with those who say half the word of God is no longer applicable, and that those who say God is the same now as He always was, are heretics....I would say, be careful what you agree with.
Can't help but love you, however.
I regret the to and fro of discussion has caused you to second-guess yourself so much that you seem to agree with everybody. That is not a good place to be. Peacemaking is good, but agreeing with those who say half the word of God is no longer applicable, and that those who say God is the same now as He always was, are heretics....I would say, be careful what you agree with.
Can't help but love you, however.
I can't agree with this at all! I went to several churches within the ACOP, The Apostolic Church of Pentecost. They practised tongues and were amillennial, although their doctrinal statement doesn't directly state it, it was certainly known by people in the denomination and those outside.
ACOP of Canada
They were started during the Welsh Revival, so deep roots in revivals.
I confess, I rarely saw anything out of order in those churches, and the pastors were men of God who preached the whole Bible, not just cherry picking and extending a few verses!
Who knows, if I had been able to stay in that church, maybe I wouldn't have gotten so turned off by the excesses I saw growing in other charismatic churches and the incredible shallowness of doctrine, and the lack of preparedness or training of the pastors to actually preach the Bible.
As it is, I am totally amillennial, and I do not limit God if he chooses to give someone an unknown tongue to communicate the gospel. As for what passes for gifts, and the emphasis on tongues, and the self-edification, I will stick to the fruits and the many gift lists that do not not include the sensational, like Romans 12, right after the command to be transformed by the Holy Spirit. And these gifts being the result.
"so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:5-8
The prophecy gift here does not mean everyone shouting out things in church that usually don't make sense, nor future predictions. It refers to the study of the Bible, and using it as a means of speaking forth the truth of the Holy Spirit contained in the words of Scripture.
We had a prophecy in our church a few weeks ago by a member. He read a piece of Scripture that God laid on his heart. and encouraged people to seek God and to make those verses part of their lives! That is true prophecy, in our time!
ACOP of Canada
They were started during the Welsh Revival, so deep roots in revivals.
I confess, I rarely saw anything out of order in those churches, and the pastors were men of God who preached the whole Bible, not just cherry picking and extending a few verses!
Who knows, if I had been able to stay in that church, maybe I wouldn't have gotten so turned off by the excesses I saw growing in other charismatic churches and the incredible shallowness of doctrine, and the lack of preparedness or training of the pastors to actually preach the Bible.
As it is, I am totally amillennial, and I do not limit God if he chooses to give someone an unknown tongue to communicate the gospel. As for what passes for gifts, and the emphasis on tongues, and the self-edification, I will stick to the fruits and the many gift lists that do not not include the sensational, like Romans 12, right after the command to be transformed by the Holy Spirit. And these gifts being the result.
"so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:5-8
The prophecy gift here does not mean everyone shouting out things in church that usually don't make sense, nor future predictions. It refers to the study of the Bible, and using it as a means of speaking forth the truth of the Holy Spirit contained in the words of Scripture.
We had a prophecy in our church a few weeks ago by a member. He read a piece of Scripture that God laid on his heart. and encouraged people to seek God and to make those verses part of their lives! That is true prophecy, in our time!
I didn't mind putting the effort into a factual point; something at this point you have failed to prove is erroneous.
The above statement is a fallacy due to its generalization. Some texts may have had some Latin influence, but even those texts weren't influenced completely. The text I’m using from the Greek has not been Latinized. Lantinized or not the various Greek texts agree on the text from Romans 11:29. A good example can be found at Biblehub:
Nestle GNT 1904
ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ Θεοῦ.
Westcott and Hort 1881
ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ θεοῦ.
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ θεοῦ.
RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ θεοῦ.
Greek Orthodox Church 1904
ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ Θεοῦ.
Tischendorf 8th Edition
ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ θεοῦ.
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ Θεοῦ.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
ἀμεταμέλητα γὰρ τὰ χαρίσματα καὶ ἡ κλῆσις τοῦ θεοῦ
As can be seen there is no variation in the texts above. Romans 11:29 is not disputed textually. All include the plural τὰ χαρίσματα/gifts.
"The manuscripts we have"??? I’ve demonstrated the Greek textual agreement from various traditions. Now please bring yours to the table so we can examine it.