Works vs. Works
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His works of obedience did not merit his salvation either. Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness (Genesis 15:6) many years before his obedient work in Genesis 22.
Because he did not work to merit his salvation, instead he believed God and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:2-6).
James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
His works DID NOT save him. Abraham was saved through faith, not works, just as all genuine believers are. Show me where Paul said we are saved by grace through faith AND "these" works, just not "those" works.
The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21-24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
It's not about works vs. works, it's about justified "accounted as righteous by faith, not works" (Romans 4:2-6) vs. justified "shown to be righteous" by works and not by an empty profession of faith (James 2:14-24) that remains alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) - dead faith.
You proved nothing and the truth remains the same. Salvation is by grace through FAITH, NOT WORKS. We are NOT saved by works. Until you understand that Paul uses the term "justified" to refer to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 4:2-3) and James uses the term "justified" to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24) you will refuse to BELIEVE and remain in your state of confusion about works, along with Roman Catholics, Mormons and other "works salvationists"
Because he did not work to merit his salvation, instead he believed God and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:2-6).
James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
His works DID NOT save him. Abraham was saved through faith, not works, just as all genuine believers are. Show me where Paul said we are saved by grace through faith AND "these" works, just not "those" works.
The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21-24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
It's not about works vs. works, it's about justified "accounted as righteous by faith, not works" (Romans 4:2-6) vs. justified "shown to be righteous" by works and not by an empty profession of faith (James 2:14-24) that remains alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) - dead faith.
You proved nothing and the truth remains the same. Salvation is by grace through FAITH, NOT WORKS. We are NOT saved by works. Until you understand that Paul uses the term "justified" to refer to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 4:2-3) and James uses the term "justified" to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24) you will refuse to BELIEVE and remain in your state of confusion about works, along with Roman Catholics, Mormons and other "works salvationists"
[Q UOTE =eternally-gratefull;2122119]Some people just refuse to acknowledge they can have no part in their salvation. and this has blinded them to the fact of what true repentance and faith is.
there comes a point where all we can do is pray they open their minds one day. [/QUOTE] Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand, its just hard for many people to ACCEPT. It is tragic that human pride will not allow these people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith.
there comes a point where all we can do is pray they open their minds one day. [/QUOTE] Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand, its just hard for many people to ACCEPT. It is tragic that human pride will not allow these people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith.
This is correct for one to become SAVED, But this is NOT correct for one that is already SAVED. The Bible is clear those who hate others will not enter into Heaven. Therefore to LOVE ONE ANOTHER is required once a person has accepted the free gift of Salvation. To LOVE ONE ANOTHER is works. It is plainly written, that Faith ALONE is NOT enough for one to remain SAVED. Faith and Works go hand in hand. And Scriptures prove they go hand in hand, not one without the other. If you care to read many Scriptural proof of that, then click HERE. To read an article called Faith or Works or Both? or just continue to believe as you do, and not search the Scriptures to see if maybe just maybe you might be wrong.
^i^ Responding to Post # 75
^i^ Responding to Post # 75
i agree with what you are saying, except for one comment you made
Jesus Commands us by giving us Christians a New Commandment, which is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. This commandment is given to all those who have been saved, who have accepted Him as their Savior and Lord. They MUST DO as Jesus commands them to do, they MUST LOVE ONE ANOTHER, in LOVING ONE ANOTHER, you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, help those in need. These are works that MUST be done, because we are commanded to do so. We are to love our enemies, This is not easy to do, and requires much work on our part to do so. True Jesus is in us to help us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER as we should, But He does not DO IT for us, we must choose to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, it is an action that we choose to do, it is NOT automatic when a person gets SAVED, or automatic when a person accepts Jesus into their hearts to live within them. So we are REQUIRED to do Good Works once we are SAVED, that is why it is plainly written:
Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
In Saying to be careful to maintain good works, is a conscience decision to do so, an effort that is to be chosen to do. If Good Works were automatically done when a person accepts Jesus into their life, Once Saved, then there would be no reason for it to be written to be sure to maintain good works. To maintain something means it is not automatic. If i am going to maintain my vehicle, then that means there are things that i am required to do, in order to maintain the vehicle, such as change the oil, tune up, fluids, tires and the such. If a person is going to maintain good works, the there are some things they will be required to do, help the needy, feed the hungry, give to the poor, LOVE ONE ANOTHER. These things are not automatic.
^i^ Responding to Post #71
It is apparent you are not listening to what i am saying, i have never said, nor ever will say, nor have i ever implied that to GET SAVED, you had to do more than believe and repent. If you were understanding what i have been saying, then you would know that i plainly teach, a person can come as they are, as filthy rags to GET Saved, that the only things required for one to GET Saved is to believe and repent of your past sins, NOTHING else is ever required for one to GET SAVED. The problem is not the Getting Saved, people got down to a tee, the problem is what is REQUIRED once a person has (past tense) already been SAVED. Such as to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, to forgive others or you will not be forgiven yourself. Required to stop lying one to another, because it is written that ALL LIARS shall burn in the lake of fire and brimstone, the Holy Word of God does not say what this generation teaches, that ALL Liars shall burn in the lake of fire and brimstone, UNLESS THEY ARE SAVED. Do you see how this generation adds to the Word of God to fit their own agenda? God says All LIARS will burn in the fire. So i assure you God does not lie, and ALL LIARS will burn in the fire, and it does not matter what they say with their mouths "I'm Saved, I'm under the Blood of Jesus, I am Saved by Grace, I have eternal Salvation" if they are judged to be a liar, they will not enter into Heaven EXACTLY like the Word of God says and teaches.
Again, what this generation FAILS to grasp and understand, is that GETTING Saved, and Being Saved are two entirely different topics. There is No Works required for one to GET SAVED, But once they are SAVED, then there are Works Required, as also the Scriptures teach.
And that is correct. However that is not what i have been saying. NO works required for one to GET SAVED, Works are required once a person IS SAVED.
The rescue of the penalty of sin happens when a person GETS SAVED, the moment they accept Jesus into their heart and lives and repent of their past sins that they have committed. Then and only ONCE Jesus forgives them of all their past sins.
Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Of coarse this generation reads that same verse like this.
Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, present, and future, through the forbearance of God;
So then when a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, Jesus goes to the cross for that person, and all that persons past sins are forgiven them. He does NOT continue to go to the cross every time that person chooses to commit sins. Tell me. If the teaching of today teaches that Once you are Saved, then all your sins are paid for by Jesus, why do the Scriptures plainly teach That a person who soweth to his/her flesh shall reap corruption. If Jesus has already paid for all their past, present, and future sins, why would they suffer in the flesh because of their sinning? It is also written that he that doeth wrong shall be repaid for the wrong which they have done, why do they have to pay for the wrong which they have done, if Jesus has already paid for all their wrongs. Might as well throw out the verse that teaches you reap what you sow, because that (according to this generation) does not apply because Jesus paid the penalty for all the sins we will ever commit, we Christians do not reap what we sow, because Jesus paid the cost of our sinning. God Forbid.
Here is the Truth, and is Scriptural. When a person GETS SAVED, Jesus dies for that person, was beaten for that person to pay the penalty of their past sinning, Jesus went to the cross ONCE for every single person who GETS SAVED. He does not continually go to the cross, He does NOT continually take stripes because of your sins, this He only did ONCE for anyone who will accept Him and GET SAVED. But after a person is SAVED, if they choose to commit sin, they will indeed reap what they have sown, they will be repaid for the wrong which they have committed, they will be punished for their sinning AFTER they have been freely forgiven of their past sins, they have altogether returned to their vomitting behavior, and jumping back in the mud after Jesus just cleansed them and made them white as snow. But they choose to get back in the mud, or eat their own vomit again, this they themselves will have to reap for what they themselves have chosen to do. Is it not written that God chastises those that He loves? What then does He chastise His children for? Disobedience, sinning. Jesus does not pay for the sins you choose to commit today or tomorrow, you will reap what you yourself have sown. Now don't get me wrong or misquote me, like so many do, i am not saying that Jesus will not forgive a person of a particular sin if they are Truly repentant of that sin, that is to say, they repent and cease to do the very thing they are repenting of. Yes, Jesus still does forgive those who Truly Repent, BUT, He does not pay the consequences of your sinning. A person may rob a bank and repents to God for doing so, and the Spirit convicts that person to even return the money, which that person does do, But even though that person is forgiven by Jesus, The Verse that teaches you reap what you sow is still in effect, and that person goes to Jail. Reaping the consequences of their own actions. If you sow to the flesh of the flesh you shall reap corruption. Therefore a married man commits adultery, afterwards feels real sorry, and repents to God, and the Spirit says tell your wife, which he does, Jesus forgives that person, But this does not negate the verse that teaches if you sow to the flesh of the flesh you shall reap corruption. Therefore that person will reap corruption in their flesh because of that adultery, and that corruption usually is not immediate, but happens latter on in life. God keeps good records.
Again you are not understanding. God does SAVE us when we GET SAVED, when we accept Him to be our Lord and Savior. Now try to get past that point, the point where a person GETS SAVED, now let us move on to the next day, then what? Your SAVED, NOW WHAT, This is when God does put demands on us because we are NOW SAVED, such as He commands us, He does not ask us to, or He is not saying try to , He is TELLING us to, Commanding us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, this is not a request, something that you should try to do, it is a commandment from Jesus Christ who you say you serve and obey and follow. Jesus Christ commands all Christians everywhere to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. And that is WORKS. Feeding the needy, helping those in need, giving to charities, helping the community, praying for those who hate you, love those who hate you, be nice to everyone, these are all WORKS, and all of them are results of LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Show me a person that has no works, and then i will be able to show you a person who does NOT LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
And i have said it before and say again now. Those who LOVE ONE ANOTHER will be those who are taken up with Him when He Returns. Those who do NOT Love One Another, will not be taken up with Him. The Kingdom of Heaven ONLY desires those who Love others, not those who LOVE SELF. Lucifer in Heaven LOVED self, more than others. NO person who is selfish will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, ONLY those who LOVE others more than self, will be accepted to live forever and ever in Paradise.
i do not say that to upset anyone at all, it is my hope that it will make people realize, or in the least, try to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Am i telling you things that are evil? Are the things i teach wicked? i teach to stop obeying satan, to start Loving one another, and this generation if they had stones in their hand, would be casting them at me. Jesus is in me, Jesus has told me these things, i tell you what He has told me, and guess what, the world hates Jesus, therefore it hates me as well, i teach the Truth, i teach against SIN, which JESUS CHRIST HATES. Think you are good with Jesus and continue to do those things which HE HATES, and see if you are not one standing on that day weeping. But here is good news, now you know the Truth, now you know the narrow and difficult path that leads to life everlasting, now there is hope for you, because as long as you hold on to the doctrines that are being taught today, you will be weeping indeed.
^i^ Responding to Post # 78
Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand, its just hard for many people to ACCEPT. It is tragic that human pride will not allow these people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith.[/QUOTE]
Answer me this, because for some reason, people do not understand Getting SAVED and being SAVED are two different things.
When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, they are SAVED correct? Yes we all agree with that, tell me why are their verses which say and teach "He that endures to the end, shall be SAVED" What endure? If a person GETS SAVED, and Always remains saved to never be blotted out of the Book of Life, why are there Holy Inspired Scriptures that teach a person must endure to the end to be SAVED?
Even Paul teaches the same thing, that he has not attained SALVATION, But endures to the end as if it were a race. He that endures to the end shall be SAVED.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
1Co_9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
Heb_12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Know you not that Judgement Day is the Day that determines who is SAVED and who is NOT SAVED. i was SAVED at a very young age, Does that mean i am SAVED right now? Sure if i die right now, or Jesus comes right now, i know and am fully persuaded that i am SAVED, and will be granted ETERNAL LIFE with Him, i know this, and there is no doubt in my mind at all. HOWEVER, what if God decides to test me like He tested JOB? will i turn away from Him, What if i am put in prison and i am innocent, and have to do life, when i am innocent, will i turn from God? What if i am raped by a guy while i am in prison, will i then turn away from God, what if i get some kind of long painful cancer, will i turn away from God? Will i choose to walk away from God, Sure no person can MAKE me leave the hand of my FATHER, no person can CAUSE me to lose my Salvation, that is a choice i, and only i can make, i can freely choose to walk away from God. Did i endure to the end? No, i did not endure to the end if i choose to walk away from God. So who knows what a year from now will hold for me, who knows if i will be SAVED or not, but i assure i believe with all my heart that i will be SAVED. i run this race and will not quit running it, just because of some obstacles put in my way, God test me on that, and He will, just like He does for everyone, without respect of persons. But Am i SAVED right now, Has Jesus converted this wretched flesh that i live in right now? No. Has Judgement Day happened and my name is found in the Book of Life? NO. Is my name right now written in the Book of Life, you better believe it, i am SAVED, my name is there. Does that mean it is impossible for God to blot my name out of that Book? NO, He can and even indicated in His Word that He can do so, so even though my name is written in the Book, does not mean it will not be blotted out. When are the Books opened to Judge who is SAVED and who is not SAVED, JUDGEMENT DAY, not today, not tomorrow, but ONLY one day decides who is SAVED and who is not SAVED, and that day is the Day Jesus Returns and Raptures those who are Truly SAVED, those who DO what He commanded them to do, those who LOVE ONE ANOTHER. So all of you who believe OSAS and you don't have to have works and the such, that you are SAVED by merely having Faith and that is all that is needed, you continue to believe it is impossible for God to blot your name out of the Book of LIFE, and continue to have no works (Because if you LOVED ONE ANOTHER, you would most certainly have many good works helping people, because you love them) and see if your name is still there on JUDGMENT DAY, the day and the only day that determines who is SAVED and who is NOT SAVED, hence the reason the verses which teach "He that endures to the end shall be SAVED" The End being Judgment Day.
^i^ Responding to Post # 83
Answer me this, because for some reason, people do not understand Getting SAVED and being SAVED are two different things.
When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, they are SAVED correct? Yes we all agree with that, tell me why are their verses which say and teach "He that endures to the end, shall be SAVED" What endure? If a person GETS SAVED, and Always remains saved to never be blotted out of the Book of Life, why are there Holy Inspired Scriptures that teach a person must endure to the end to be SAVED?
Even Paul teaches the same thing, that he has not attained SALVATION, But endures to the end as if it were a race. He that endures to the end shall be SAVED.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
1Co_9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
Heb_12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Know you not that Judgement Day is the Day that determines who is SAVED and who is NOT SAVED. i was SAVED at a very young age, Does that mean i am SAVED right now? Sure if i die right now, or Jesus comes right now, i know and am fully persuaded that i am SAVED, and will be granted ETERNAL LIFE with Him, i know this, and there is no doubt in my mind at all. HOWEVER, what if God decides to test me like He tested JOB? will i turn away from Him, What if i am put in prison and i am innocent, and have to do life, when i am innocent, will i turn from God? What if i am raped by a guy while i am in prison, will i then turn away from God, what if i get some kind of long painful cancer, will i turn away from God? Will i choose to walk away from God, Sure no person can MAKE me leave the hand of my FATHER, no person can CAUSE me to lose my Salvation, that is a choice i, and only i can make, i can freely choose to walk away from God. Did i endure to the end? No, i did not endure to the end if i choose to walk away from God. So who knows what a year from now will hold for me, who knows if i will be SAVED or not, but i assure i believe with all my heart that i will be SAVED. i run this race and will not quit running it, just because of some obstacles put in my way, God test me on that, and He will, just like He does for everyone, without respect of persons. But Am i SAVED right now, Has Jesus converted this wretched flesh that i live in right now? No. Has Judgement Day happened and my name is found in the Book of Life? NO. Is my name right now written in the Book of Life, you better believe it, i am SAVED, my name is there. Does that mean it is impossible for God to blot my name out of that Book? NO, He can and even indicated in His Word that He can do so, so even though my name is written in the Book, does not mean it will not be blotted out. When are the Books opened to Judge who is SAVED and who is not SAVED, JUDGEMENT DAY, not today, not tomorrow, but ONLY one day decides who is SAVED and who is not SAVED, and that day is the Day Jesus Returns and Raptures those who are Truly SAVED, those who DO what He commanded them to do, those who LOVE ONE ANOTHER. So all of you who believe OSAS and you don't have to have works and the such, that you are SAVED by merely having Faith and that is all that is needed, you continue to believe it is impossible for God to blot your name out of the Book of LIFE, and continue to have no works (Because if you LOVED ONE ANOTHER, you would most certainly have many good works helping people, because you love them) and see if your name is still there on JUDGMENT DAY, the day and the only day that determines who is SAVED and who is NOT SAVED, hence the reason the verses which teach "He that endures to the end shall be SAVED" The End being Judgment Day.
^i^ Responding to Post # 83
Another straw man for I never said Abraham merited his salvation.
The point that you did not resolve is Abraham was said to be one that "worketh not" yet Abraham did do works.
If all works were the same, then Abraham could not both "worketh not" AND at the same time do works (Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5) for that is a contradiction and the bible, Paul and James do not contradict.
The reason this is not a contradiction is because Paul and James are speaking about DIFFERENT types of works. Paul in Rom 4 is speaking about flawless law keeping whereby on tries to merit his salvation and this is the work Abraham "worketh not". James is speaking about obedience to the will of God which IS the work Abraham did do and by those obedient works he was justified for faith only do not justify.
Paul and James use the exact same word justified (dikaioo) with the exact same meaning. You again are caught trying to change definition of words and rewrite verses.
the bible>>>By works a man justified and not by faith only.
The man made teaching of faith only>>> by faith only a man is justified and not by works.
The man mdae teaching of faith only has it exactly backwards from the bible.
The point that you did not resolve is Abraham was said to be one that "worketh not" yet Abraham did do works.
If all works were the same, then Abraham could not both "worketh not" AND at the same time do works (Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5) for that is a contradiction and the bible, Paul and James do not contradict.
The reason this is not a contradiction is because Paul and James are speaking about DIFFERENT types of works. Paul in Rom 4 is speaking about flawless law keeping whereby on tries to merit his salvation and this is the work Abraham "worketh not". James is speaking about obedience to the will of God which IS the work Abraham did do and by those obedient works he was justified for faith only do not justify.
Paul and James use the exact same word justified (dikaioo) with the exact same meaning. You again are caught trying to change definition of words and rewrite verses.
the bible>>>By works a man justified and not by faith only.
The man made teaching of faith only>>> by faith only a man is justified and not by works.
The man mdae teaching of faith only has it exactly backwards from the bible.
What people are not willing to accept is that the works Paul speaks of by which one is not saved in Eph 2:9 are works of merit and Paul never did exclude ALL works from salvation...he never excluded obedience to God's will from salvation but INCLUDED it.
Clearly in Rom 6:17,18the order is that Paul put obedience from the heart BEFORE being freed from sin not after.....regardless of those here that try to rewrite Rom 6 to force it to fit their personal philosophy.
Clearly in Rom 6:17,18the order is that Paul put obedience from the heart BEFORE being freed from sin not after.....regardless of those here that try to rewrite Rom 6 to force it to fit their personal philosophy.
The thing is brother Dave is in order for me to reply to your post it's going to look like I am a OSAS person and that's not my belief although I would be a OSAS believer if it weren't for certain scriptures.
I believe the spirit is saved and sealed and sin can't cause you to lose your salvation
But if you remain alive and in the body on this planet(sanctification) then sin can eventually affect you in the mind and cause you to think carnally to the point you can become insensitive to the HOLY SPIRIT and possibly become reprobate.
IMO this would happen over a period of time(a process).
Don't Nash your teeth at me but that's what I believe.
So the spirit is saved and sealed but if you remain alive in the body and don't renew your mind I believe becoming reprobate is the only way you can be rejected otherwise you are saved and sealed.
I believe the spirit is saved and sealed and sin can't cause you to lose your salvation
But if you remain alive and in the body on this planet(sanctification) then sin can eventually affect you in the mind and cause you to think carnally to the point you can become insensitive to the HOLY SPIRIT and possibly become reprobate.
IMO this would happen over a period of time(a process).
Don't Nash your teeth at me but that's what I believe.
So the spirit is saved and sealed but if you remain alive in the body and don't renew your mind I believe becoming reprobate is the only way you can be rejected otherwise you are saved and sealed.
J
Part of the problem is that people don't know the differences in believing, hope and faith. People normally use believing and faith interchangeably when they are not the same thing.
There are times when Merriam-Webster's definition is not the same as God's definition. You have to go by God's definition of a word when dealing with salvation.
Belief
To believe is to consider something to be true. Look at John 8:24 and the end of Heb. 11:6. Believing must come first. Why? If you don't believe (consider it to be true), then you won't act on it. Atheists don't consider (believe) the bible to be true, so they don't act according to it. If you don't consider that you can lose your salvation to be true, then you will not stop sinning. There's no fear that anything bad will happen because you don't consider the loss of salvation to be a true thing. Noah moved with fear because he considered it to be a true thing that God would let him be destroyed with the rest if he didn't obey (Heb. 11:7). Also remember, even the devils consider it to be true that Jesus reigns victoriously and they even tremble (James 2:19). Many "believers" don't even tremble anymore.
Faith
Rom. 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing/word of God. James connects faith to works in chapter 2. The author says that faith is a substance and evidence in Hebrews 11:1. Take notice of what all of the "By faith" verses in Heb. 11 have in common. What do they all have in common? Faith is an action. It is doing something about what you consider to be true (believe). I believe this chair will hold me, so my faith is that part where I actually sit down. Matter of fact, James said that you can only tell what a person believes by what they're willing to do about it (faith/work). The work/faith was me sitting down. You could tell that I believed the chair could hold my weight because of what I did. So why does faith come by hearing/word of God? Because the bible is an instruction book. It tells you what to do once you believe. Faith can be as simple as praying or not being afraid in the time of fear.
Hope
1 John 3:2-3 is a good verse to define hope. Prov. 13:12, Prov. 19:18, Jer. 17:17 and 2 Cor. 3:11-12 help as well. Hope is the motivation/reason to look forward.
Recap
Belief is what you consider to be true.
Faith is what you're going to do about it.
Hope is the motivation to do it.
I consider it to be true (believe) that God will help me. Because of this, I am motivated (hope) to do something about it (faith). I prayed and asked Him for help and I did not despair (faith).
People usually just run through Ephesians 2:8-9. It's actually telling you two things though. You have to add in verse 10. Verse 8 is "thrown off" by the word faith. God doesn't have faith. He doesn't believe, hope, pray or fast. He's God. God is the great I AM. He created those things for us, not Himself. God couldn't have used faith to give us salvation. You had no more to do with salvation being offered in the first place than you had with your boss putting out the "for hire" sign. But you did have something to do with deciding that God is true and you will serve Him the balance of your days. That is the same as you having something to do with sending in your resume and actually working once hired. Salvation is only gifted to us by God's grace. But the opportunity being available does not automatically apply it to me. That's where the "faith" in verse 8 is explained in verse 10. What is the "them" that we should walk in in verse 10? The "unto good works".
There are times when Merriam-Webster's definition is not the same as God's definition. You have to go by God's definition of a word when dealing with salvation.
Belief
To believe is to consider something to be true. Look at John 8:24 and the end of Heb. 11:6. Believing must come first. Why? If you don't believe (consider it to be true), then you won't act on it. Atheists don't consider (believe) the bible to be true, so they don't act according to it. If you don't consider that you can lose your salvation to be true, then you will not stop sinning. There's no fear that anything bad will happen because you don't consider the loss of salvation to be a true thing. Noah moved with fear because he considered it to be a true thing that God would let him be destroyed with the rest if he didn't obey (Heb. 11:7). Also remember, even the devils consider it to be true that Jesus reigns victoriously and they even tremble (James 2:19). Many "believers" don't even tremble anymore.
Faith
Rom. 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing/word of God. James connects faith to works in chapter 2. The author says that faith is a substance and evidence in Hebrews 11:1. Take notice of what all of the "By faith" verses in Heb. 11 have in common. What do they all have in common? Faith is an action. It is doing something about what you consider to be true (believe). I believe this chair will hold me, so my faith is that part where I actually sit down. Matter of fact, James said that you can only tell what a person believes by what they're willing to do about it (faith/work). The work/faith was me sitting down. You could tell that I believed the chair could hold my weight because of what I did. So why does faith come by hearing/word of God? Because the bible is an instruction book. It tells you what to do once you believe. Faith can be as simple as praying or not being afraid in the time of fear.
Hope
1 John 3:2-3 is a good verse to define hope. Prov. 13:12, Prov. 19:18, Jer. 17:17 and 2 Cor. 3:11-12 help as well. Hope is the motivation/reason to look forward.
Recap
Belief is what you consider to be true.
Faith is what you're going to do about it.
Hope is the motivation to do it.
I consider it to be true (believe) that God will help me. Because of this, I am motivated (hope) to do something about it (faith). I prayed and asked Him for help and I did not despair (faith).
People usually just run through Ephesians 2:8-9. It's actually telling you two things though. You have to add in verse 10. Verse 8 is "thrown off" by the word faith. God doesn't have faith. He doesn't believe, hope, pray or fast. He's God. God is the great I AM. He created those things for us, not Himself. God couldn't have used faith to give us salvation. You had no more to do with salvation being offered in the first place than you had with your boss putting out the "for hire" sign. But you did have something to do with deciding that God is true and you will serve Him the balance of your days. That is the same as you having something to do with sending in your resume and actually working once hired. Salvation is only gifted to us by God's grace. But the opportunity being available does not automatically apply it to me. That's where the "faith" in verse 8 is explained in verse 10. What is the "them" that we should walk in in verse 10? The "unto good works".
You said some works justify while other don't, so your implication is that Abraham was "saved" by obedient works (just not perfect law keeping), which equates to meriting salvation by obedient works. Either way, this is still salvation by works. This is how you interpret "justified by works." Either we are saved by believing or we are saved by working. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways. I trust in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. You trust in WORKS. Huge difference!
This point has been resolved, but apparently my explanation went right over your head. Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:2-3). If salvation were based on works, then God, in granting a person salvation, would merely be repaying what he owed that person, just as an employer gives a worker wages for his work. Righteousness does not come to those who work for it (hence, does not work) since all, like Abraham are by God's absolute standards ungodly. Rather, righteousness comes, as it did for Abraham, by BELIEVING in place of working. This seems to be very difficult for you to grasp and there is a reason for that.
Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness, so works come under a different equation. Works are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. Abraham did not do works to be accounted as righteous (does not work), instead he believed God (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). For if Abraham was justified by works, (in a legal sense - saved by works) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Since you still don't understand that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous" and James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3), you remain confused and instead divide works up into two different categories and continue to teach salvation by works. Truly sad.
False. Roman Catholics and Mormons use this same flawed logic and teach salvation by works as well. You are not in good company. Paul and James do not contradict each other. The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21,24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 4:2-6). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove/show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24). Simple.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). This is the moral aspect of the law.
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? Your not saved by works of the law vs. saved by obedient works argument is bogus.
Works in general are whereby one tries to merit his salvation, which is "worketh not." This is not limited to flawless law keeping but ALL works. Saved through FAITH, NOT WORKS. *Show me where Paul says that we are saved through faith AND "these" works, just not "those" works. I asked you to show me this before and you failed.
Therefore being justified by faith "plus what?" works? NO. Faith IN CHRIST alone (Romans 5:1). So we are not justified by works in the legal (judicial) sense by which we are accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3). Yet we show the genuineness of our faith by the works that we do (James 2:14-18), so we are justified by works IN THAT SENSE (James 2:21-24). It is through faith in Christ alone and not by the merits of our works that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
This is where you fail to rightly divide the word of truth, give the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "saved" and clearly testify that you teach salvation "by" works.
*In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
*1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
*2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
*3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
*The word "dikaioo" as you can see above and (depending on the context, as I will show you below) does not always have the exact same meaning.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
CONTEXT - "faith only" - per James is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith (James 2:14-17), not genuine faith, so James is NOT saying that we are saved by faith AND works. Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification (James 2:21) that already came by faith (Genesis 15:6).
By faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation (saved through faith, not works) a man is justified (Romans 4:2-3). By faith that merely claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead, does not justify (James 2:14-24). Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and was said to be justified by works by proving or manifesting the genuineness of his faith "shown to be righteous" in Genesis 22. Your false teaching would have Abraham still lost in Genesis 15:6 and not saved until Genesis 22.
Salvation by works is a man made teaching and salvation by a dead faith is also a man made teaching. The Biblical balance and teaching is that it is through faith (rightly understood in Christ alone) and not by the merits of our works that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24).
Your man made teaching of salvation by works has it exactly backwards from the Bible. James 2 is a major stumbling block for works salvationists.
This point has been resolved, but apparently my explanation went right over your head. Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:2-3). If salvation were based on works, then God, in granting a person salvation, would merely be repaying what he owed that person, just as an employer gives a worker wages for his work. Righteousness does not come to those who work for it (hence, does not work) since all, like Abraham are by God's absolute standards ungodly. Rather, righteousness comes, as it did for Abraham, by BELIEVING in place of working. This seems to be very difficult for you to grasp and there is a reason for that.
Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness, so works come under a different equation. Works are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. Abraham did not do works to be accounted as righteous (does not work), instead he believed God (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). For if Abraham was justified by works, (in a legal sense - saved by works) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Since you still don't understand that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous" and James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3), you remain confused and instead divide works up into two different categories and continue to teach salvation by works. Truly sad.
False. Roman Catholics and Mormons use this same flawed logic and teach salvation by works as well. You are not in good company. Paul and James do not contradict each other. The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21,24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 4:2-6). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove/show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24). Simple.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). This is the moral aspect of the law.
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? Your not saved by works of the law vs. saved by obedient works argument is bogus.
Works in general are whereby one tries to merit his salvation, which is "worketh not." This is not limited to flawless law keeping but ALL works. Saved through FAITH, NOT WORKS. *Show me where Paul says that we are saved through faith AND "these" works, just not "those" works. I asked you to show me this before and you failed.
Therefore being justified by faith "plus what?" works? NO. Faith IN CHRIST alone (Romans 5:1). So we are not justified by works in the legal (judicial) sense by which we are accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3). Yet we show the genuineness of our faith by the works that we do (James 2:14-18), so we are justified by works IN THAT SENSE (James 2:21-24). It is through faith in Christ alone and not by the merits of our works that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
This is where you fail to rightly divide the word of truth, give the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "saved" and clearly testify that you teach salvation "by" works.
*In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
*1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
*2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
*3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
*The word "dikaioo" as you can see above and (depending on the context, as I will show you below) does not always have the exact same meaning.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
CONTEXT - "faith only" - per James is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith (James 2:14-17), not genuine faith, so James is NOT saying that we are saved by faith AND works. Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification (James 2:21) that already came by faith (Genesis 15:6).
By faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation (saved through faith, not works) a man is justified (Romans 4:2-3). By faith that merely claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead, does not justify (James 2:14-24). Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and was said to be justified by works by proving or manifesting the genuineness of his faith "shown to be righteous" in Genesis 22. Your false teaching would have Abraham still lost in Genesis 15:6 and not saved until Genesis 22.
Salvation by works is a man made teaching and salvation by a dead faith is also a man made teaching. The Biblical balance and teaching is that it is through faith (rightly understood in Christ alone) and not by the merits of our works that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24).
Your man made teaching of salvation by works has it exactly backwards from the Bible. James 2 is a major stumbling block for works salvationists.
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E
Thats double talk. It is like saying I am saved, but I am not really saved because unless I do certain things, I am not saved.
DO you even know what saved is? the problem with every generation is they take a truth of God (say like the word salvation) and make it a religious term, which means something far different than what the word actually means. (the jews were masters of this. as were the pagans)
The word means what it says, saved, What does scripture say we are saved from? Our sins, Gods eternal wrath, What does scripture say we are given? Adoption as sons, Eternal life. If your dead, you need saved, if your saved your made alive, God calls this life eternal.
Now, lets see what you did,
1. WE GET SAVED by faith alone in the work of CHrist
2. WE make this salvation COMPLETE (in other words perfect)as long as we do works of the flesh like loving others, forgiving others etc etc.
I would make a comment, but I do not have to. Scripture makes a comment about this faulty gospel which is no gospel at all. because the jews tried to use the same argument to Paul and the NT church, the only difference, they wanted to add different works than you are.
so here is what Paul says about your GETTING SAVED and then tryingn to PERFECT YOUR SALVATION (KEEP IT)
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit,(faith) are you now being made perfect by the flesh (works)?
so as you see, it is ny I who am calling you a fool ( I would never do that, it is not my Job) It is Gods word (ie God himself) calling you a fool.
just to finish, If your drowning, and at the point that if you are not saved by someone, you will die, And that person comes and says if you pay him a million dollars he will save you (ie you must pay for your freedom and earn it) it is no different than if that person comes and says he will save you, but you have to do what I say afterwords. In both cases, you did not get saved for free, it was not a gift, it was a reward for something you would pay.
don't be a fool and claim your not preaching works (earning salvation) when in reality, that is the very thing you are doing, only your trying to be sly, and give your payment after the fact, not before. yet there is absolutely no difference whatsoever.
1. Paul spoke of the sins which occured BEFORE the death of christ,, why do you twist the words of God to suit your own gospel? (notice how you left the word forebearance, If it is out past sin, it is not through Gods forebearance of something which would happen, because the moment we come to him, God already knows what we did) this forebearnace paul spoke of was the cross itself. the actual event)
2. This same paul said in the same passage;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
free. Redemption. God is the one who justified, why are you trying to justify yourself by earning it? news flash bud, if Jesus did not pay for your future sin on the cross. thos sins will never be forgiven, your doomed forever once you commit them, because their is no more payment for sin, unless Christ returns and pays for those sins.
No, of course you just proved you are spoonfed what we believe and do not actually have any knowledge of what we believe, because we would never say this, this is not even what paul is saying,
This is what he is saying.
Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (to propitiate is to satisfy a wrathfull God, to appease him, to make amends) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (remmision of sin means the penalty of sin was paid in full) that are past, (those which occured in past time, before the cross, the sins of moses, the sins of david, the sin of abraham etc etc) through the forbearance of God; (God, in his infinate wisdom, knew jesus would come and make payment for those sins)
Then unlike you, we would continue with the rest of what paul said to get complete context)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]to demonstrate at the present time (this time in pauls day, post ressurection) His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Jesus justifies those who have faith in him, not those who try to earn his justification by works)
again, you not only twisted it to your own belief, but you twisted it to our belief, and you were wrong in both instances.
again, if jesus did not pay for you future and present sin, but only your past (which if you actually opened you mind for one second, you would realise were FUTURE SIN when he died) then you have no hope of eternal life, or being justified freely by the grace of God. you better be perfect after you have faiht in God. because your own your own, and one sin and "POOF" your doomed forever, no hope.
DO you even know what saved is? the problem with every generation is they take a truth of God (say like the word salvation) and make it a religious term, which means something far different than what the word actually means. (the jews were masters of this. as were the pagans)
The word means what it says, saved, What does scripture say we are saved from? Our sins, Gods eternal wrath, What does scripture say we are given? Adoption as sons, Eternal life. If your dead, you need saved, if your saved your made alive, God calls this life eternal.
Now, lets see what you did,
1. WE GET SAVED by faith alone in the work of CHrist
2. WE make this salvation COMPLETE (in other words perfect)as long as we do works of the flesh like loving others, forgiving others etc etc.
I would make a comment, but I do not have to. Scripture makes a comment about this faulty gospel which is no gospel at all. because the jews tried to use the same argument to Paul and the NT church, the only difference, they wanted to add different works than you are.
so here is what Paul says about your GETTING SAVED and then tryingn to PERFECT YOUR SALVATION (KEEP IT)
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit,(faith) are you now being made perfect by the flesh (works)?
so as you see, it is ny I who am calling you a fool ( I would never do that, it is not my Job) It is Gods word (ie God himself) calling you a fool.
just to finish, If your drowning, and at the point that if you are not saved by someone, you will die, And that person comes and says if you pay him a million dollars he will save you (ie you must pay for your freedom and earn it) it is no different than if that person comes and says he will save you, but you have to do what I say afterwords. In both cases, you did not get saved for free, it was not a gift, it was a reward for something you would pay.
don't be a fool and claim your not preaching works (earning salvation) when in reality, that is the very thing you are doing, only your trying to be sly, and give your payment after the fact, not before. yet there is absolutely no difference whatsoever.
1. Paul spoke of the sins which occured BEFORE the death of christ,, why do you twist the words of God to suit your own gospel? (notice how you left the word forebearance, If it is out past sin, it is not through Gods forebearance of something which would happen, because the moment we come to him, God already knows what we did) this forebearnace paul spoke of was the cross itself. the actual event)
2. This same paul said in the same passage;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
free. Redemption. God is the one who justified, why are you trying to justify yourself by earning it? news flash bud, if Jesus did not pay for your future sin on the cross. thos sins will never be forgiven, your doomed forever once you commit them, because their is no more payment for sin, unless Christ returns and pays for those sins.
No, of course you just proved you are spoonfed what we believe and do not actually have any knowledge of what we believe, because we would never say this, this is not even what paul is saying,
This is what he is saying.
Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (to propitiate is to satisfy a wrathfull God, to appease him, to make amends) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (remmision of sin means the penalty of sin was paid in full) that are past, (those which occured in past time, before the cross, the sins of moses, the sins of david, the sin of abraham etc etc) through the forbearance of God; (God, in his infinate wisdom, knew jesus would come and make payment for those sins)
Then unlike you, we would continue with the rest of what paul said to get complete context)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]to demonstrate at the present time (this time in pauls day, post ressurection) His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Jesus justifies those who have faith in him, not those who try to earn his justification by works)
again, you not only twisted it to your own belief, but you twisted it to our belief, and you were wrong in both instances.
again, if jesus did not pay for you future and present sin, but only your past (which if you actually opened you mind for one second, you would realise were FUTURE SIN when he died) then you have no hope of eternal life, or being justified freely by the grace of God. you better be perfect after you have faiht in God. because your own your own, and one sin and "POOF" your doomed forever, no hope.
E
No, that is a lie your church has taught you, which is not from God.
Your either saved (have eternal life) or your not saved (dead in sin) there is no inbetween
You can't go tell someone they are saved by faith alone in the work of Christ, who paid your sin debt, only to tell them they must then pay for their salvation if they want to keep it after they are saved. for all you have done (if they buy into your deciept) is decieved them into working for their own salvation, and rejecting the salvation bought with the spilt blood of Christ, and made Christ a laughing stock who had no power to save anyone.
Your either saved (have eternal life) or your not saved (dead in sin) there is no inbetween
You can't go tell someone they are saved by faith alone in the work of Christ, who paid your sin debt, only to tell them they must then pay for their salvation if they want to keep it after they are saved. for all you have done (if they buy into your deciept) is decieved them into working for their own salvation, and rejecting the salvation bought with the spilt blood of Christ, and made Christ a laughing stock who had no power to save anyone.
You said some works justify while other don't, so your implication is that Abraham was "saved" by obedient works (just not perfect law keeping), which equates to meriting salvation by obedient works. Either way, this is still salvation by works. This is how you interpret "justified by works." Either we are saved by believing or we are saved by working. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways. I trust in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. You trust in WORKS. Huge difference!
This point has been resolved, but apparently my explanation went right over your head. Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:2-3). If salvation were based on works, then God, in granting a person salvation, would merely be repaying what he owed that person, just as an employer gives a worker wages for his work. Righteousness does not come to those who work for it (hence, does not work) since all, like Abraham are by God's absolute standards ungodly. Rather, righteousness comes, as it did for Abraham, by BELIEVING in place of working. This seems to be very difficult for you to grasp and there is a reason for that.
Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness, so works come under a different equation. Works are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. Abraham did not do works to be accounted as righteous (does not work), instead he believed God (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). For if Abraham was justified by works, (in a legal sense - saved by works) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Since you still don't understand that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous" and James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3), you remain confused and instead divide works up into two different categories and continue to teach salvation by works. Truly sad.
False. Roman Catholics and Mormons use this same flawed logic and teach salvation by works as well. You are not in good company. Paul and James do not contradict each other. The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21,24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 4:2-6). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove/show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24). Simple.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). This is the moral aspect of the law.
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? Your not saved by works of the law vs. saved by obedient works argument is bogus.
Works in general are whereby one tries to merit his salvation, which is "worketh not." This is not limited to flawless law keeping but ALL works. Saved through FAITH, NOT WORKS. *Show me where Paul says that we are saved through faith AND "these" works, just not "those" works. I asked you to show me this before and you failed.
Therefore being justified by faith "plus what?" works? NO. Faith IN CHRIST alone (Romans 5:1). So we are not justified by works in the legal (judicial) sense by which we are accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3). Yet we show the genuineness of our faith by the works that we do (James 2:14-18), so we are justified by works IN THAT SENSE (James 2:21-24). It is through faith in Christ alone and not by the merits of our works that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
This is where you fail to rightly divide the word of truth, give the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "saved" and clearly testify that you teach salvation "by" works.
*In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
*1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
*2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
*3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
*The word "dikaioo" as you can see above and (depending on the context, as I will show you below) does not always have the exact same meaning.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
CONTEXT - "faith only" - per James is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith (James 2:14-17), not genuine faith, so James is NOT saying that we are saved by faith AND works. Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification (James 2:21) that already came by faith (Genesis 15:6).
By faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation (saved through faith, not works) a man is justified (Romans 4:2-3). By faith that merely claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead, does not justify (James 2:14-24). Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and was said to be justified by works by proving or manifesting the genuineness of his faith "shown to be righteous" in Genesis 22. Your false teaching would have Abraham still lost in Genesis 15:6 and not saved until Genesis 22.
Salvation by works is a man made teaching and salvation by a dead faith is also a man made teaching. The Biblical balance and teaching is that it is through faith (rightly understood in Christ alone) and not by the merits of our works that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24).
Your man made teaching of salvation by works has it exactly backwards from the Bible. James 2 is a major stumbling block for works salvationists.
This point has been resolved, but apparently my explanation went right over your head. Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:2-3). If salvation were based on works, then God, in granting a person salvation, would merely be repaying what he owed that person, just as an employer gives a worker wages for his work. Righteousness does not come to those who work for it (hence, does not work) since all, like Abraham are by God's absolute standards ungodly. Rather, righteousness comes, as it did for Abraham, by BELIEVING in place of working. This seems to be very difficult for you to grasp and there is a reason for that.
Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness, so works come under a different equation. Works are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. Abraham did not do works to be accounted as righteous (does not work), instead he believed God (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). For if Abraham was justified by works, (in a legal sense - saved by works) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Since you still don't understand that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous" and James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3), you remain confused and instead divide works up into two different categories and continue to teach salvation by works. Truly sad.
False. Roman Catholics and Mormons use this same flawed logic and teach salvation by works as well. You are not in good company. Paul and James do not contradict each other. The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21,24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 4:2-6). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove/show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do (James 2:14-24). Simple.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). This is the moral aspect of the law.
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? Your not saved by works of the law vs. saved by obedient works argument is bogus.
Works in general are whereby one tries to merit his salvation, which is "worketh not." This is not limited to flawless law keeping but ALL works. Saved through FAITH, NOT WORKS. *Show me where Paul says that we are saved through faith AND "these" works, just not "those" works. I asked you to show me this before and you failed.
Therefore being justified by faith "plus what?" works? NO. Faith IN CHRIST alone (Romans 5:1). So we are not justified by works in the legal (judicial) sense by which we are accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3). Yet we show the genuineness of our faith by the works that we do (James 2:14-18), so we are justified by works IN THAT SENSE (James 2:21-24). It is through faith in Christ alone and not by the merits of our works that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
This is where you fail to rightly divide the word of truth, give the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "saved" and clearly testify that you teach salvation "by" works.
*In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
*1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
*2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
*3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
*The word "dikaioo" as you can see above and (depending on the context, as I will show you below) does not always have the exact same meaning.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
CONTEXT - "faith only" - per James is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith (James 2:14-17), not genuine faith, so James is NOT saying that we are saved by faith AND works. Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification (James 2:21) that already came by faith (Genesis 15:6).
By faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation (saved through faith, not works) a man is justified (Romans 4:2-3). By faith that merely claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead, does not justify (James 2:14-24). Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and was said to be justified by works by proving or manifesting the genuineness of his faith "shown to be righteous" in Genesis 22. Your false teaching would have Abraham still lost in Genesis 15:6 and not saved until Genesis 22.
Salvation by works is a man made teaching and salvation by a dead faith is also a man made teaching. The Biblical balance and teaching is that it is through faith (rightly understood in Christ alone) and not by the merits of our works that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24).
Your man made teaching of salvation by works has it exactly backwards from the Bible. James 2 is a major stumbling block for works salvationists.
the bible>>>>>>>>>>by works a man is justifed NOT by faith only
Faith only advocates>>>by faith only a man is justified and not by works
It is as obvious as a hot sun in a summer sky that faith only advocates do not accept the bible for what it says but are rewriting the bible to force it to fit their personal man made philosophy and trying to make the bible say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it actually does say.
If you think all works are alike then you have created a contradiction that your looooong post does not resolve.
A person cannot both do works and not do works at the same time if all works are alike.
Simple question: did Abraham not do any works or did Abraham do any works?
I already thoroughly explained to you in post #91 that there is no contradiction between Paul and James, but unfortunately, the truth continues to go right over your head. Go back and prayerfully read that post again and this time remove the blinders.
A person cannot be both saved through faith, not works and saved by works at the same time since salvation is through faith and not by works.
Abraham did works, but not to be accounted as righteous. That is the huge difference between Abraham's faith and your faith. He believed God and his faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:2-3). You are self righteously seeking to be accounted as righteous based on your works (Romans 4:4-6). *You need to get this right because your salvation depends on it.
*Simple question: Was Abraham "accounted as righteous" based on his faith or based on his works? (Romans 4:2-3).
*Another simple question that you have ignored twice now: *Show me where Paul says that we are saved through faith AND "these" works, just not "those" works. ANSWER THE QUESTION.
A person cannot be both saved through faith, not works and saved by works at the same time since salvation is through faith and not by works.
Abraham did works, but not to be accounted as righteous. That is the huge difference between Abraham's faith and your faith. He believed God and his faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:2-3). You are self righteously seeking to be accounted as righteous based on your works (Romans 4:4-6). *You need to get this right because your salvation depends on it.
*Simple question: Was Abraham "accounted as righteous" based on his faith or based on his works? (Romans 4:2-3).
*Another simple question that you have ignored twice now: *Show me where Paul says that we are saved through faith AND "these" works, just not "those" works. ANSWER THE QUESTION.
E
See, here is Sea Bass's problem.
He uses one verse in one passage, where james is telling people to test their faith to see if it is real, or if it is mere belief. the way to test our faith is to see if it has works, if it does, it is real. if not. our faith is DEAD (meaning we are not saved and never have been) and we better repent, and seek out God so we can have REAL FAITH.
and says we must work to earn salvation. when scripture over and over says faith apart from works. not of works but by Gods mercy, Justified freely (it is free, not ever earned by work) etc etc.
So sebass has a one verse theology, even though that one verse, Taken in context, does not even say what he claims it says.
way to go bud.
lol, Jesus Christ Commands us Christians to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, tell me how that is not works? What then? You love the hungry by praying for them over your dinner plate? What? You give to the poor by giving to your Church to by new pews or stained glass windows? Do you help those in need, by getting together with the Church ladies and say "We need to pray that such and such gets help" lol. you are so against works, and think that Faith ONLY is enough, that apparently obeying Jesus your Savior and Lord, is not important in the slightest. But you and nobody will be able to escape this >> Jesus COMMANDS us Christians to LOVE ONE ANOTHER << Those who actually do LOVE ONE ANOTHER will indeed have many good works. And NO, they do not do those many Good Works to be SAVED or even to remain SAVED, they do all those many Good Works because they ARE SAVED, they have LOVE inside of them, they have Jesus (who is LOVE) inside of them, and these who Truly have Jesus inside of them, DESIRE to do Good Works, because they LOVE OTHERS. So you go ahead and believe ONLY, keep Your Faith ONLY, and NOT do as Jesus Commanded us to do, which is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and see if you are not one weeping when He Returns, because all you had was FAITH ONLY. As i said before, those who are Truly SAVED, WILL have good works, not because they have to do them, not because it is required for one to remain or be SAVED, they WILL have good works, because LOVE resides in them. God is LOVE, if Jesus is in you, you will LOVE ONE ANOTHER, you will forgive all who hurt you or use you, or talk evil of you, you will not HATE anyone. You will help the needy, not because you are trying to remain SAVED, you will help the needy because you LOVE THEM.
Anybody can walk up the isle and get SAVED, anyone can come as they are and Jesus will receive them, and forgiven them of their past sins, Jesus will cleanse ANYONE who comes to Him and repents. This does not mean they will remain cleansed. Is it not written, that those who walk in the light, are they that are cleansed by His Blood.
1Jn 1:7 But if (CONDITIONAL) we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
When according to Scriptures does His blood cleanse us from all sin? When we walk in the light and NOT in darkness.
Tell me does a person need to be walking in the light to GET SAVED? Heavens no, the Scriptures teach you can come as you are, filthy, sinners, defied, living in sins, full of darkness, any of those can come and GET SAVED and be forgiven of their sins, to GET SAVED, to get His Blood to cleanse them, does NOT need to be walking in the light to do so. So then who is this verse to, because it is not to the unsaved to GET SAVED
1Jn 1:7 But if we (Those who are SAVED) walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
When are we to be doing this walking in the light to have His blood cleanse us? NOT before we are SAVED, but AFTER we are SAVED, AFTER we accept Him and GET SAVED, AFTER we GET SAVED, we are to start walking in the light as Jesus walked in the light, EXACTLY as all of Scriptures teach. We are to now AFTER we GET SAVED, to put away the sin that so easily besets us, we are to put off the old man and his wicked deeds, AFTER we GET SAVED, we are to no longer obey the flesh and its lustful desires. AFTER we are to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, AFTER we are to maintain Good Works as the Holy Inspired Scriptures of God plainly tells us to.
So you keep on thinking you are righteous because of your FAITH ONLY, But we who are of the Truth, know that Scriptures teach those who are righteous DO righteousness. DO is the works.
Do i feed the hungry, donate clothing, give to charities, work in soup kitchens, help those in need, pick up every hitchiker i have ever seen, visit the elderly, help a widow, take care of my Mother, Pull over and get tires out of the road as to not cause an accident and people get hurt, and many other such things of LOVE. Do i do all these things, to remain SAVED? NO, do i do those things to GET SAVED, Heavens NO. Do i have all those Good works so i can be SAVED? NO. There are several reasons i do those things, 1st because i LOVE them and my desire is to help them, all of them. 2nd Because Jesus Christ is my Lord and Master, and He commands me to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, which i do. 3rd Because Scriptures plainly teach that Eternal life is to them that OBEY Jesus which commands us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. 4th Because Scriptures teach be sure to maintain Good Works, which i do, 5th Because Scriptures teach good trees only produce good fruits, fruits being your works. and many other things which Scriptures teach concerning works, which if i were to write them all concerning works i would see the sun rise tomorrow morning.
It seems to me you fail to understand what i have said over and over again, there is a difference between getting SAVED and being SAVED. There are certain requirement for one to GET SAVED, and then there are certain requirements once a person is SAVED. For some reason, with you and others, SAVED is SAVED and you can't differentiate between what it takes for one to GET SAVED and what is required once you ARE SAVED. To you and to the others, the Getting SAVED is ongoing. That is to say you believe the requirements for one to GET SAVED, applies every day that person is SAVED, and nothing else is required. Technically you don't even have to do what Jesus commanded, do you? The way you believe you do not even have to LOVE ONE ANOTHER right? Because you believe that if you believe and repent, then you are SAVED, period. NOTHING else required after that, you are SAVED, and will always be SAVED, and it does not matter if you have good works or not, it does not matter if you hate others, or if you have unforgiveness in your heart, it does not matter if you lie all the time, it does not matter if you fornicate, commit adultery, or even continue to live in sin, all that matters to you is That you are SAVED because you believe and repented, thats it, NOTHING else is required. Yet Scriptures teach contrary to that belief. As i have said over and over also, that those who believe OSAS can't possibly believe the Scriptures and what they plainly teach. What you believe is what is required for one to GET SAVED, But once you are SAVED, you are to obey Jesus Christ as Scriptures teach, you are to obey the Word of God, as Scriptures teach, you are to abide in the light as Scriptures plainly teach. i have told you the Truth, which Truth was given to me by God. Do you think you are rejecting me? Your not, you are rejecting God and what He has told me to teach. Can you testify to anything that i have said that is contrary to any Scriptures? What i teach is the Word of God, what i teach is Truth. Many who believe OSAS will be weeping on that mournful day the Lord shows up to take those who DO that which He Commands, to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
i will tell you the Truth and do not lie, God is my witness. Those who believe OSAS and do NOT Love One Another, will remain and not be taken, no matter how SAVED they think they were. Eternal Salvation is to them that Obey Jesus, and Jesus Commands Christians to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Anyone who does Love One Another, will have plenty of works. But not this generation, why have works when Faith alone SAVES you? Which by the way is contrary to the Book of James. But this generation has already interpreted those verses away, to make them mean something other than what they plainly say and teach.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
But doesn't this generation teach you don't have to have works? Doesn't this generation teach that Faith alone is all that is needed? wicked generation devoid of the Truth of God, and do not believe the Word of God and what it plainly teaches that children could understand it.
Do you know how you can tell a True Christian from a false Christian? a True Christian will LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and a false one won't.
^i^ Responding to Post #92
Why do you continually falsely accuse me of working for ones Salvation? i do not believe that, nor have i EVER taught such a thing. Have i not plainly said that a person can GET SAVED as they are, that NOTHING is required for one to GET SAVED. Why then do you continually accuse me of teaching works for Salvation? Who is telling you that lie, who is talking in your head making you believe that is what i teach?
You though are teaching that if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord and Get Saved, that you do not have to obey Him. Is that not accurate? You say and teach that believing in Jesus Christ is all that you have to do all the days of your life and your Heaven bound, because it is written those who believe are SAVED, If you were to actually do a study in the Bible concerning what it Truly means to believe in Him, you would know and understand to believe in Him is to do what He tells you to do. Is it not plainly written those who LOVE ME, Keep My Commandments. But what say you? You do not have to do anything but believe in Jesus and you are SAVED, that's it, NOTHING else required, you might as well throw most of the NEW Testament in the trash, why do you need it? Most of the NEW TESTAMENT teaches us Christian what we are to do now that Jesus has SAVED us. But not you, you believe that all you have to do is believe in Jesus and that is it, NOTHING else is required, yet over and over again SCRIPTURES teaches contrary to that false belief.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (NOT things that are displeasing in His sight, such as wilful sinning)
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, AND 2) love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Who does Jesus dwell in? Those who believe AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Faith and Works. This is not to get SAVED, this verse is to those who are already SAVED, this verse is instructing the SAVED, not the unsaved. What will you do with these verses? ignore them? Make them void? Interpret them to mean something other that what it plainly teaches?
Should i believe you which teach Believing only is enough, or should i believe the tons of Scriptures which plainly teach Faith and Works go hand in hand? You or the Word of God? i choose the Word of God which teaches over and over and over again that ONCE a person is SAVED, they are to OBEY JESUS their Lord and Savior. How is a person who claims to be Saved and yet disobeys Jesus, not a disobedient child of God? Scriptures are clear about disobedient children of God.
i leave you with three Scriptures
Act_5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Joh_13:34 A new commandment I (Jesus Christ your LORD) give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
^i^ Responding to Post #93
You though are teaching that if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord and Get Saved, that you do not have to obey Him. Is that not accurate? You say and teach that believing in Jesus Christ is all that you have to do all the days of your life and your Heaven bound, because it is written those who believe are SAVED, If you were to actually do a study in the Bible concerning what it Truly means to believe in Him, you would know and understand to believe in Him is to do what He tells you to do. Is it not plainly written those who LOVE ME, Keep My Commandments. But what say you? You do not have to do anything but believe in Jesus and you are SAVED, that's it, NOTHING else required, you might as well throw most of the NEW Testament in the trash, why do you need it? Most of the NEW TESTAMENT teaches us Christian what we are to do now that Jesus has SAVED us. But not you, you believe that all you have to do is believe in Jesus and that is it, NOTHING else is required, yet over and over again SCRIPTURES teaches contrary to that false belief.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (NOT things that are displeasing in His sight, such as wilful sinning)
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, AND 2) love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Who does Jesus dwell in? Those who believe AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Faith and Works. This is not to get SAVED, this verse is to those who are already SAVED, this verse is instructing the SAVED, not the unsaved. What will you do with these verses? ignore them? Make them void? Interpret them to mean something other that what it plainly teaches?
Should i believe you which teach Believing only is enough, or should i believe the tons of Scriptures which plainly teach Faith and Works go hand in hand? You or the Word of God? i choose the Word of God which teaches over and over and over again that ONCE a person is SAVED, they are to OBEY JESUS their Lord and Savior. How is a person who claims to be Saved and yet disobeys Jesus, not a disobedient child of God? Scriptures are clear about disobedient children of God.
i leave you with three Scriptures
Act_5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Heb_5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Joh_13:34 A new commandment I (Jesus Christ your LORD) give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
^i^ Responding to Post #93
While it is true that we are created in Christ for good works that follow salvation, there are several factors that precede or lead to salvation.
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16: 16)
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Acts 2: 21)
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life. (Acts 11: 18)
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9)
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? (Rom. 8: 24)
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. (Rom. 10: 9, 10)
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 3: 21)
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1: 12)
God bless
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16: 16)
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Acts 2: 21)
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life. (Acts 11: 18)
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9)
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? (Rom. 8: 24)
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. (Rom. 10: 9, 10)
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 3: 21)
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1: 12)
God bless
Saved by grace through faith, not works = several factors that precede or lead to salvation? Your argument sounds like CoC language.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
When you call upon the Lord to save you it is that you trust in Him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling is the essential faith that He can and will save you. So, in essence, to call on the name of the Lord unto salvation is to trust in Him to save you.
Repentance is a "change of mind" that precedes saving faith in Christ.
Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.
Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Which acts of obedience is salvation a consequence of? Is obedience a consequence of salvation? Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many people misuse Hebrews 5:9 to support salvation by works. Do you believe that the word "obey" here means that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless? In Romans 10:16, we see: *But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel/obey Christ by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16). Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 10:16).
Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Without faith, it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh. Just look at the Pharisees and these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 who think they are obeying God by their works. In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
This verse does not teach that if our faith is genuine, but we don't have enough hope, we can't be saved. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. 1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Without the clear and certain promises of the Word of God that salvation is through faith in Christ and we can KNOW this (1 John 5:13), the believer would have no hope. Genuine hope is another aspect of faith, not an additional requirement to become saved after faith. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.
Who is it that perseveres under trial and loves the Lord? Believers or unbelievers? Do you attend the church of Christ? I at one time had attended the church of Christ many years ago so I understand how they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
When you call upon the Lord to save you it is that you trust in Him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling is the essential faith that He can and will save you. So, in essence, to call on the name of the Lord unto salvation is to trust in Him to save you.
Repentance is a "change of mind" that precedes saving faith in Christ.
Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.
Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Which acts of obedience is salvation a consequence of? Is obedience a consequence of salvation? Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many people misuse Hebrews 5:9 to support salvation by works. Do you believe that the word "obey" here means that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless? In Romans 10:16, we see: *But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel/obey Christ by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16). Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 10:16).
Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Without faith, it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh. Just look at the Pharisees and these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 who think they are obeying God by their works. In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
This verse does not teach that if our faith is genuine, but we don't have enough hope, we can't be saved. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. 1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Without the clear and certain promises of the Word of God that salvation is through faith in Christ and we can KNOW this (1 John 5:13), the believer would have no hope. Genuine hope is another aspect of faith, not an additional requirement to become saved after faith. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.
Who is it that perseveres under trial and loves the Lord? Believers or unbelievers? Do you attend the church of Christ? I at one time had attended the church of Christ many years ago so I understand how they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.