The Law Debacle Resolved

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2015

I agree bro. but we have to be careful as some out there teach a different gospel. The works are based on getting saved or keeping it, Not as a result of it.

Paul said there is one, not any other..

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

faith and love is obedient,

1 cor 13:
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[SUP][a][/SUP] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; [SUP]5 [/SUP]does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; [SUP]6 [/SUP]does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails.

These are not works or commands, These are what empowers our work, and empowers us to obey Gods commands.

All these things are empowered by God. We love BECAUSE he loved us.

GandalfTheWhite · Oct 9, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

We have two schools of thought as far as I am concerned.

The first group believe we are saved by grace and only grace and usually this group's main focus is the NT

The second group believe that by grace we are saved by faith and try to keep to what the Bible tells us to do (OT & NT).

The reason why I asked you where we can find the verse that describe salvation by keeping the law is because that is the debate. Salvation by grace or "keeping the law" and every person who tells you that there are still relevance in keeping the law will tell you there is no salvation in keeping the law

just obedience to the Word of God.

If we all can agree that there is no salvation by keeping the law it will lead to a major breakthrough as we now have a starting point where we can work from. Maybe our differences is not that material if we start looking at the similarities...

I hope this make sense?

PeterJens · Oct 9, 2015

Obedience about the state of our heart is about lowering the defences.
When we are hurt, we shut people out, we say we do not care, we make sure we cannot be hurt again. We remember who hurt us and hold it against them.

Jesus commands us to see we are just like everybody else, lost, hurt, defended, and because we are like this we lash out and hurt others. I know hurt christian brothers and sisters do this to me, because I touched their pain. I was suprised when this happened but now I understand.

To love them is to forgive them. To love them is to say I do not mind being hurt, because defending yourself shuts down your emotions, who you are, leaves trust far away, does not give love a chance in someone else. If I come up to you defended, closed down bristling with sarcasm and agression, you are not going to open up and be vulnerable, expect healing or a blessing. No, only defence and counter move. Until you obey, you do not know how defended, hurt, alone you really are. It is up to the believer to open up and ask Jesus in.

I will give you an example that breaks my heart, because it is so obvious. A good christian worker shared with someone that their son had just be diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. What a blow and very tragic, especially for a mum.
The person who received the news said, "I wonder why they told me this. I suppose it helps telling others."

They had no clue the benefit of a kind word, or empathy, or crying with those who mourn. Their battlements never would let out such vulnerability or let such a thing surface in them.

But you cannot know love until you have begun to let your heart sing, let the battlements go, let healing in, because the King of Kings has conquered all, and no matter what, literally we are safe with Him.

Obedience is not about earning righteousness, it is about learning to be real, and admitting how enclosed and shut down we all are in this world of sin. I know this is true, I did not know how deep in me it was and how fundamental a part of my family it was. But Jesus has changed everything. This is not about salvation, this is about life and truth.

GandalfTheWhite · Oct 9, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen, and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow...

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2015

GandalfTheWhite said:

You forgot a group. The group that says we are saved by grace through faith, and accepts that both the OT and NT teaches this concept.

Not true. Some people claim we are saved by works, but not works of the law. SOme people say we are claimed by other things, the works gospel crowd says salvation is given, maintained or kept (not lost) by how good we are. A persons salvation is based on how well they do, not what God did and promised.

As for the law. Paul tells us, as did moses. The law states one must be perfect. Since non of us can maintain that law. No one can be saved by it. for we all have fallen short of that standard (sinned or romans 3: 23)

no we can't because legalism is not just saying we are saved by law. There are many types (The jews claimed we are saved by the law. Many of the church makes a different law a requrement, )

A gospel of works is a gospel of works, whether it is works of the law (ot) works of christ (NT) or whatever work claims one must do to maintain salvation.

It does. I hear the argument all the time, Not saying you are doing it, I do not know what you believe

Just anyone who says "I do not teach works of the law to be saved" yet teaches work of some type must be done to be saved, maintain salvation or keep being saved is just as guilty as teaching works for salvation.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2015

GandalfTheWhite said:

Amen he is, We are saved today the same way Noah was saved, Adam was saved, Abraham was saved, Moses, Jeremiah, Daniel David, Mathew mark luke and john.. Everyone in heaven will be there because of one thing, they had faith in God.

GandalfTheWhite · Oct 9, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

Now that we can agree on

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2015

GandalfTheWhite said:

Amen, And where does obedience come from? That same faith,

if we want examples. we need to look no further than the great faith hall of fame as shown in Hebrews 11..

HeRoseFromTheDead · Oct 9, 2015

GandalfTheWhite said:

That will likely work for some, but for others the chasm is so wide that it would be pointless to try to find similarity. For example, there are some who vehemently claim that following the law is not required for salvation, and then in the next breath say that truly saved people will keep the law.

Or in the next breath say that faith is keeping the law (not explicitly, but in veiled language).

Or say that we don't have to follow the law, but do have to follow the moral law of faith and love, which is just code for the 10 commandments.

Or say that we have to do what Jesus did, which just an ambiguous, deceitful way of saying we have to keep the law.

Or say we have to obey all of GOD's words, not just some of them, which is another underhanded way of saying we have to obey the law of Moses.

And on and on. I know there's some I've missed...

GandalfTheWhite · Oct 9, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

The book of faith...

GandalfTheWhite · Oct 9, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

That will likely work for some, but for others the chasm is so wide that it would be pointless to try to find similarity. For example, there are some who vehemently claim that following the law is not required for salvation, and then in the next breath say that truly saved people will keep the law.

Or in the next breath say that faith is keeping the law (not explicitly, but in veiled language).

Or say that we don't have to follow the law, but do have to follow the moral law of faith and love, which is just code for the 10 commandments.

Or say that we have to do what Jesus did, which just an ambiguous, deceitful way of saying we have to keep the law.

Or say we have to obey all of GOD's words, not just some of them, which is another underhanded way of saying we have to obey the law of Moses.

And on and on. I know there's some I've missed...

We should be clear when preaching the gospel that Genesis - Revelation are relevant, and if we are obedient to the word of God it doesn't make us legalistic

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2015

GandalfTheWhite said:

Amen..

Obedience comes from a trust in God, not by self will. Those who have truly repented in faith and been made a child of God will work.

What I can not understand is why people question if a true child of God will work or not. How can nhey Not work if they have TRUE saving faith?

you know what I mean?

zzz98 · Oct 9, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

This is why I'm confused. People accusing those who obey God of legalism. Like I said before God can't use a person that is not willing to do His work. That's what I see. People telling God how they are not gonna do anything, yet expect heaven

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2015

GandalfTheWhite said:

I agree, And most people do not say it means your legalistic, It is the legalism and those in it who uses this straw man that say we are calling anyone who claims one should be obedience as a legalist.

if i am struggling with a sin, and crossnote, or angela, or one of my other brothers/sisters in christ comes and says, hey dude, whats your problem, why are you not trustin God in this area.

I am not going to tell them they are being legalistic. I Hope and pray I would be open to chastening from God through my brother or sister.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2015

zzz98 said:

You may be confused because people are not saying this, Maybe it is what you hear? but not what is actually being said?

GandalfTheWhite · Oct 9, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

My hope for every person on CC is that we make it to the Kingdom and if we are there we could have a reunion and laugh about all the things we were wrong about...

just kidding but it will be interesting to see people's reaction the day they meet Jesus with the perfect knowledge from the Holy Spirit burning in them.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2015

GandalfTheWhite said:

Oh I can't wait to meet my brothers and sisters and laugh at all I was wrong in..

HeRoseFromTheDead · Oct 9, 2015

zzz98 said:

Don't be one of those who kids themselves by thinking that following the law of Moses is obedience to GOD.

Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give the proceeds to the poor—and you will have treasure in heaven—and come, follow me.” Matthew 19:21

zzz98 · Oct 9, 2015

I'm out of this. This is nothing but confusion and I know who fathers that

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