The Law Debacle Resolved

[KennethC]

Don't put words in my mouth; I'm not talking about walking away from having faith; I'm talking about works. Can we lose our salvation for not performing enough works?

Well you did not say that the first time, and I have never said a person loses salvation because of works.

I said it all hinders on if the person keeps their faith in the Lord or not, as a person who walks away from the faith the bible is clear on what their ending is and it is not salvation unless they return to the Lord.

 

[ember]

I never said you have said this about me, but others have, as that is the point I was making.

I nowhere stated that you made this allegation on me, as I was just asking for proof because I have seen some make this blanket allegation on others when they said nothing of the sort.

Even the bible says proof needs to be established in order to make a call on another, else wise it is just a false allegation.

I am calm and no I am not hurting nothing as I am very patient !!!

well good then...get your proof...it's a few posts up

after all, it is always about being more right than the next person

love? hey...that was booted out of here a long time ago

 

[KennethC]

Ken...HERE is a thread that is a fine example of what I stated

it's an older thread, but has been re-activated

from the op:



That type of presentation is also in this thread

Here is sample from Jaume



calling folks who disagree with you blind, deaf and dumb does nothing but stir up strife and the author appears to fancy themself above others...in fact he came here to teach...not discuss it would seem

anyway, this table is set with very sharp knives and some are sitting with knives sticking out of them and others are gnawing on bones and wiping grease on someone elses robe

that's how I see it

compromise? well not with what is true but the theme here is two

1. What is truth

2. I'll tell you what truth is

meantime, it's a 3 ring circus and I'm not saying stop...I am saying LISTEN

Well I did not write either one of those quotes and don't know who did, but at the same time neither one of them says works save or maintain salvation.

Yes nobody should be resorting to using such unedifying tactics when responding to another, and I can attest that I have had a few toss those unedifying and belittling tactic's at me as well. This is not a one sided issue as there are those from different sides that do this to one another, and I even called for this unedifying behavior to stop in the past.

To no avail it did not work and will never work as long as they continue to believe they are doing nothing wrong !!!

 

[KennethC]

Kenneth, et. al. Your are confusing salvation with fellowship. When we sin, we break our fellowship with the one that we sin against. When our fellowship is broken, we suffer the consequences of that broken fellowship. When we seek forgiveness, we restore that fellowship.

None of the scriptures that have been presented indicate that one has lost his salvation, and must do anything to restore it.

I think it is time that everyone here ask God to restore his fellowship, drop the eternal security debate, and take the afternoon and enjoy the blessings of our salvation. I'll see you all tomorrow, but not on this thread.

I will ask you the same question about the servants given talents to in Matthew 25:

Did the servant given one talent get eternal life or was he cast into outer darkness for being an unprofitable/disobedient servant ???

 

[Shoshanah]

this post was totally neglected

This is not a Christan chat. What has happened to all of you?

 

[Kefa54]

I say it is both.

Why why why are you people so hung up on either/or???

Because both is incorrect.


Holman Christian Study Bible

Ephesians 2

From Death to Life
2:1 And you were dead a in your trespasses and sins

2 in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient.

3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly e desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love i that He had for us,

5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

6 Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens,

7 so that in the coming ages m He might display the immeasurable riches n of His grace through His kindness o to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For you are saved by grace p through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift —

9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

If we are dead..."2:1 And you were dead a in your trespasses and sins"...then our works would be dead efforts.


Kefa

 

[KennethC]

well good then...get your proof...it's a few posts up

after all, it is always about being more right than the next person

love? hey...that was booted out of here a long time ago

One person claiming or trying to prove to be more right then another does not say works save or maintain salvation either, as again I want to see the person/s who actually said that statement.

I have not seen that in awhile now just false blanket allegations that do not hold up.

Love was never booted out of here, but the confusing I think comes from some thinking love always means just speaking nicely and soothing to others all the time. However love also means given the truth about the warnings that sin can still pose a threat to us, and a good example of this is when Apostle Paul warned Apostle Timothy in those epistles about becoming impure again do to sin.

 

[KennethC]

this post was totally neglected

This is not a Christan chat. What has happened to all of you?

Sorry about that but I did address some of that in the other thread that it came from, but still that thread got derailed as well which is why I did not want to rehash the issue.

 

[KennethC]

Because both is incorrect.


Holman Christian Study Bible

Ephesians 2

From Death to Life
2:1 And you were dead a in your trespasses and sins

2 in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient.

3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly e desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love i that He had for us,

5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

6 Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens,

7 so that in the coming ages m He might display the immeasurable riches n of His grace through His kindness o to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For you are saved by grace p through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift —

9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

If we are dead..."2:1 And you were dead a in your trespasses and sins"...then our works would be dead efforts.


Kefa

Our works yes, but not His works that we were predestined to walk in !!!

Walking by His righteousness is not doing our works, and thus the fruit thereof that comes by the Holy Spirit will not lead one to transgress. Thus why the scriptures says to those who walk by the Spirit, to such there is no law !!!

 

[JaumeJ]

Find the reference to that allegation. The blind, deaf and dumb is in reference to anyone who does not understand the reference to the Bible lesson......this will always be true, it is not harsh, especially when referencing people who attack the Biblical referenc without understanding the usage in the quote. It is very easy, and at times, very devious to quote partly from a post without referencing the origins of it. If people do not understand the Biblical teachigs of being children of obedience, I am afraid if they continue to confuse the debate by attacking being children of obedience without understanding it, they are exactly that, whoever they may be. Alos, it was a general comment, no specific person in the thread was named, hoever if someone takes offence, I would be suspect.

Well I did not write either one of those quotes and don't know who did, but at the same time neither one of them says works save or maintain salvation.

Yes nobody should be resorting to using such unedifying tactics when responding to another, and I can attest that I have had a few toss those unedifying and belittling tactic's at me as well. This is not a one sided issue as there are those from different sides that do this to one another, and I even called for this unedifying behavior to stop in the past.

To no avail it did not work and will never work as long as they continue to believe they are doing nothing wrong !!!

 

[JaumeJ]

Some folks here are using my name, and distorting my posts to third parties. I only discover this when reading these possts as quotes in replies to them in that I have them, yes more than one, on ignore for this very reason.

Now, I would appreciate the folks, yes, more than one, who make reference to me by name, to third parties to stop this small practice. That is unless of course I do it with your name to third parties......

 

[RickyZ]

James described works that demonstrate a true faith as feeding and sheltering a needy brother. Some here define those works as keeping the 10 commandments. What do you say?

I say it is both.

Why why why are you people so hung up on either/or???

Because both is incorrect.

Really? And which one do find not true - the helping a brother or keeping God's commandments?

Jesus says that if you keep His commandments then you'll help your brother. Seems to me they are both in play.

Your string of scriptures is again one sided. I'm not saying they are wrong they are just incomplete. You completely eliminate and ignore the ones that say 'differently'. When you can put BOTH sides together, and interpret them as one, then you'll see the whole picture. But as long as you promote one set at the expense of the other, you're only seeing out of one eye.

 

[Utah]

I agree, though some think any move you make is a work and they won't have anything to do with works

Don't exaggerate. People who embrace God's grace in its entirety promote works for what they are, an open expression of love and gratitude, not a requirement to maintain salvation.

 

[Utah]

What happened to the servant He gave the 1 talent to ???

Did he get eternal life or did he get cast into outer darkness for being disobedient ???

He didn't have FAITH! Jesus' parable here is about faith, not works.

 

[JaumeJ]

Your reasoning is precisely why I have posted in the past, if someone is at all confused by Paul's teachings on a given subject, even though he is in agreement with Jesus Christ, go back to what Jesus Christ hs given the world on the subject, for we are invited to learn from God; Jesus Christ is God, correct? There is no need to be confused if the Lord has taught us on the subject., and regarding obedience, the law and grace, He has.

Really? And which one do find not true - the helping a brother or keeping God's commandments?

Jesus says that if you keep His commandments then you'll help your brother. Seems to me they are both in play.

Your string of scriptures is again one sided. I'm not saying they are wrong they are just incomplete. You completely eliminate and ignore the ones that say 'differently'. When you can put BOTH sides together, and interpret them as one, then you'll see the whole picture. But as long as you promote one set at the expense of the other, you're only seeing out of one eye.

 

[JaumeJ]

The idea of works to gain salvation is not put forth by me or any other brother in Christ who knows to be obedient It is all quite clear in the parable of our Lord when He teaches us about the servants and talents of gold given each. Please reread it.

Then you will know not to bury the talent given you. At least put it in the bank where it will gain interest, if nothing else. I understand our Lord's teaching hear, I pray you do to. Learn of Him, amen.

 

[RickyZ]

It's like the old debate about is the cup half full or half empty... the only true answer is BOTH

 

[atwhatcost]

The underlying importance of these threads is that many people who are weak in faith read these threads in quiet anonymity. They need to see and be assured that God's saving grace in Jesus Christ is irrevocable. Any talk otherwise is heretical, and such heresies must be countered and condemned for everyone's sake.

BS! No one is stupid enough to keep reading endless arguments this far into a thread except for the parties having the endless arguments. This is self-gratification.

 

[Utah]

BS! No one is stupid enough to keep reading endless arguments this far into a thread except for the parties having the endless arguments. This is self-gratification.

And with that, you are being reported.

 

[JaumeJ]

You cannot serve God and mammon. We are plainly taught to be children of obedience. Actually, for Ephesians and from my own experience, once the Holy Spirit enters a person, and he is convinced of Salvation in Jesus Christ, he cannot stop himself from learning from Jesus, obeying as taught by Jesus, and living as best possible as did Jesus.

There is only one Jesus Christ, and there can never be one as He, that is perfect. However, our Father hs begun a work in each of us, and it will be finished on that Day. Yes, we will be perfected, for the promise is "You shall be perfect for I am perfect, says the Lord." Why not cooperate a little on the way? Defiance is a sin.